thanks isabelle for your response..
im slowwly but surely getting this stuff lol. So as i was doing more research, i was reading up on saw palmetto. Correct me if im wrong but from what i read saw palmetto contains something called beta-sitosterol and its the beta-sitosterol that decreases dht. But i also read that beta-sitosterol inhibits aromatase.
....if beta-sitosterol decreases both dht AND estrogen due to the inhibition of aromatase, how does this help nbe...is one inhibition stronger then the other?
also how come saw palmetto as a supplement is recommend in nbe but not beta-sitosterol?
Thank you ssag124,
I didn't know saw palmetto is an aromatase inhibitor, but that would certainly explain the experiences of a lot of people on the forum. I personally doubt the effectiveness of saw palmetto in NBE, and I don't use it myself.
It is a supplement for elderly men who have an enlarged prostate. Most of them would be happy with some aromatase inhibition. I know pure β-sitosterol is in a prostate supplement, Bional's Prostalon. But it doesn't make sense to use it in a purified form for NBE. It's in enough NBE herbs: wild yam and PM, to name only two.
Whether it works depends on how strongly β-sitosterol binds to aromatase and 5α-reductase, yes. The binding strengths of testosterone to aromatase and 5α-reductase, relative to the binding strengths of β-sitosterol, are important too. There are also individual differences in how much aromatase and 5α-reductase someone has. So you need to research quite a bit of numbers before you can predict anything about its effectiveness.
Oh wow!!...
Aromatase-independent testosterone conversion into estrogenic steroids is inhibited by a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.
Ishikawa T, Glidewell-Kenney C, Jameson JL.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Galter Pavilion, Suite 3-150, 251 E. Huron St., Chicago, Illinois 60611-2908, USA.
Estrogens are generated mainly by the action of aromatase, which converts testosterone to estradiol and androstenedione to estrone. However, in addition to estradiol and estrone, a variety of other steroids, whose synthesis is not dependent on aromatase, can stimulate the estrogen receptor. Here we show that testosterone is converted into such estrogenic steroids by aromatase-negative HeLa cells. This aromatase-independent generation of estrogenic steroids is seen in aromatase-positive MCF-7 cells as well. In both cell lines, the synthesis of estrogenic steroids was blocked by inhibition of testosterone conversion into dihydrotestosterone using a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride, suggesting that they are generated downstream of dihydrotestosterone. This finding raises the possibility that the combination of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor and an aromatase inhibitor may reduce estrogenic steroids in vivo more completely than an aromatase inhibitor alone.
Am I reading this right?.. are they now suggesting that DHT may actually be a good thing from our point of view??
Thank you, Pansy-Mae,
And yes, you are reading it right. I must say it's a big surprise to me, even though it's in line with my program as I built it from experience. I always found the amount of 5α-reductase inhibitor in hops alone is too high already, and I have been looking for a second phyto-estrogen for quite a while. Flax wasn't a good choice, because it contains an anti-androgen too, secoisolariciresinol diglycoside (SDG). PM contains β-sitosterol. That's why I wanted to try soy. And maybe that's why people used to like red clover.
I've been soy free for weeks. Even my cereals and mayonnaise and garlic sauce contain only traces of soy. I was about to start a soy experiment, but I'm afraid I need to postpone it for another two weeks. I'll update my stats later today.
Today is my official tape day. Because of cozy dinners with the kids, I always gain weight over the week-end. I grew half an inch this month.
I'll increase my goat's rue dose to three cups a day again, to see if growth picks up. I decreased all doses except hops in the past weeks.
Height: 178.5 cm = 5 * 30.48 + 10 * 2.54 = 5' 10"
Weight: 82.0 kg * 2.2046 lbs/kg = 181 lbs
Body Mass Index (BMI): 82.0/1.785/1.785 = 25.7
Breast: 113 cm = 44 1/2 "
Under: 96 cm = 38" Difference Breast - Under = 113 - 96 = 17 cm = 7 "
Waist: 85 cm = 33"
Hip: 101 cm = 40" (actually the widest part around my butt)
Waist to hip ratio (WHR): 85/101 = 0.84
Progress:
Day 11/7 26/7 08/8 22/8 05/9 19/9 3/10 17/10 31/10 14/11 28/11 12/12 27/12 09/1 2014 2016
BMI: 26.5 26.4 26.2 25.7 25.3 26.0 25.70 25.70 25.70 25.60 26.00 25.90 25.90 25.7 23.0 23.0
B-U: 8.00 5.00 8.00 8.00 8.00 10.0 10.00 13.00 11.00 14.00 15.00 16.00 16.00 17.0 15.0 20.0
WHR 0.95 .945 0.94 0.92 0.92 0.96 0.930 0.940 0.910 0.880 0.880 0.880 0.870 0.84 0.80 0.70
B-U = Breast - Under in cm
I deleted yesterday's measurement, because I always measure on Monday after one of the cozy dinners.
On December 13th, there was 420 g in the bag of oat flakes,
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41669&highlight=420#pid41669
and I ran out today, or actually last night, January 10th. That's 420 g in 29 days, or 14 g a day. That is half as much as what I took before, but still five times more than the 3,000 mg that is assumed the stalling dose for phyto-estrogens. But stalling on oats is probably not possible anyway.
I checked the nutritional information in an earlier post in this thread, and concluded I could take 100 g without overdosing on vitamins or minerals.
So I'll stick to 14 g for now.
Hi Isabelle,
I don't want to appear awkward or anything, but that seems to be an awful lot more than you were saying you took back just before Christmas?(18th Dec)
"22:00 2,500 mg dried hops flowers, 3,000 mg broken flax seed, 3,000 mg oat flakes, with other cereals, milk, honey, and raisins"
(11-01-2012, 01:01 AM)Isabelle Wrote: [ -> ]On December 13th, there was 420 g in the bag of oat flakes,...
...and I ran out today, or actually last night, January 10th. That's 420 g in 29 days, or 14 g a day. That is half as much as what I took before,....
So I'll stick to 14 g for now.
Yes Pansy-Mae,
I admit it looks stupid. I had been taking 30 g for two weeks, and wanted to go down to 3 g. I figured that would be a flat tablespoon. Over the last two weeks, that tablespoon got bigger and bigger, but I'm surprised I was so far off, yes.
Flax will run out in one or two days. I'll check my dose then. Flax is a phyto-estrogen, so in theory one can stall on it. That's why I am more worried about overdosing flax than about overdosing oats. My only reason to want about equal doses of both was that Eve dosed them that way. And I take oats only to neutralize the SHBG increase from flax, since the vitamin B6 is in the multivitamin.
The reason why the tablespoon of oat flakes got bigger was something that's really bugging me. I grew over three inches in three months, and only half an inch in the following month. What I did was decrease all doses except hops. Because of general carelessness over the holidays, my doses are a mess now:
Hops is still 2,500 mg.
Flax, I'll check in a few days, but it's moving faster than 3,000 mg.
Oats is 14,000 mg, while I thought it was 3,000 mg and increasing a little.
Two weeks ago, fenugreek was 4,600 mg while I thought it was 2,300 mg. So two weeks ago, I decreased it to 3,000 mg (I'll check with the scale).
Maca had gone up to 5,400 mg over time, so two weeks ago, I decided to half it.
I drank only one or two cups of goat's rue tea for two weeks, but two days ago, I upped it to three cups again. I want to try this for two weeks, because I had less swelling in the past two weeks. Since this is an experiment by itself, I can't really change the oats now.
In hindsight, it was stupid to decrease almost all doses at once. I could up them all now, but then I learn nothing from the experience. I'll up them one by one.
I lost weight too, and I really like that, but then it could be the real reason for slower growth. And of course, it's winter time. But I'll just compare my program with a month ago, and test all the changes one by one. Even if that doesn't bring back the growth spurt, I'm still a 42C. And what I'd really like now is to decrease my BMI to below 25. For good.
Ok, thanks.
Well all my stuff arrived today, so I'll start with the levels of everything that you listed on 18th Dec and see what happens. Obviously I'll need to play with things, but I have to start somewhere!