Thank you mochaccino,
for the recognition. At the moment, I haven't seen any growth for two months, so a lot of the program is up in the air again. I grew over an inch a month from September to December. That was on just fenugreek 5,000 mg, hops 3,000 mg, and maca 4,000 mg.
In the first half of april, I had a growth spurt, while I ramped up L-arginine to 10 g. After that, I kept L-arginine at 10 g for six weeks, and it didn't really add anything. I'm waiting for Anastasia's final verdict on L-arginine before I try it again.
I'm 180 lbs, and for most ages, you can adjust the doses by proportionality to body weight. So for a body weight of 120 lbs, take 120/180 = 2/3 of what I take. Karen recently commented that teens and 60+ should take less.
Eve M took more anti-androgens, barley grass and borage oil, in addition to hops. She took fennel too. My understanding of these differences is in the notion that the sum of estrogens plus androgens plus progestins is a constant, below the stalling limit. As a woman, Eve could afford to drive DHT down a 100 or a 1000 times. At 10 times less DHT than what I would normally have, I'd get depressed.
Adding fennel to her natural progesterone didn't make a big difference percentage wise for Eve, but in my case, it would be a multiple of my natural progesterone.
Both women and men want maximum estrogens. Women drive DHT to zero and adjust progesterone to avoid estrogen dominance. Men keep progesterone near zero, and adjust DHT to libido and mood.
Start the program with one or two weeks on Menohop. Restart it the same way after anything that destroys intestinal flora: antibiotics, liquor, spicy food, food poisoning, or yeast infection. I assume the probiotic in Menohop works for soy too, but I'm not sure. For flax, I really wouldn't know.
Good luck trying this. Women are rediscovering hops and fenugreek, but we need more one-inch-a-month accounts
Menohop contains a probiotic? I don't know why I thought it contained an enzyme. That's great since it means I don't have to take it forever. Thanks!
I'm confused about what you said about women and progesterone. Are you saying that I should adjust the amount of Fenugreek, or maybe include something else for progesterone as well?
How should I lower my DHT? Right now I'm not really clear on what's the best DHT blocker. What should I take and how much? Why is it necessary for women to to drive DHT as low as possible? Wouldn't that raise testosterone and estrogen as a result? I'm just wondering if that complicates the program, and if I might have to somehow compensate for the rise in those hormones. What would happen if I did not try to lower DHT?
My hops product is Mountain Rose Herbs hops extract. The ratio is listed as 1:4, but I'm not completely sure what those ratios really mean. According to what you said, I should be taking 2000 mg of hops. Do you know what the equivalent dose of my extract would be?
Yes mochaccino,
Menohop contains a probiotic. It colonizes the large intestine with Eubacterium Limosum, which makes 8-prenylnaringenin from isoxanthohumol. Chocolate is used as a carrier to get the bacterium through the stomach alive.
Even if I take only 2,500 mg of fenugreek, I never get estrogen dominance symptoms, because my natural estrogens are low. You may get headaches on days 25-11. If a reasonable dose of fenugreek doesn't help, add fennel seed tea.
For me, the xanthohumol in hops is sufficient to lower DHT: I hardly ever get pimples, even at only 1,800 mg hops. Eve M took barley grass and borage oil too. I bought both, but never used them. She squeezed a 1,000 mg borage oil softgel in her topical. For the barley grass dose, check her program page. I think it was about 1,000 mg. The problem with hops is that you can't just increase the dose if you get androgen symptoms: it will affect your mood. That's why in the beginning, I used to keep a stash of other anti-androgens like barley grass and borage oil as an emergency cabinet, just in case I would break out or lose hair or something. I never used them, and now I keep just the barley grass for you-never-know. Gave away the borage oil, tossed the SP/PB/PSO formula.
If you inhibit the formation of DHT from testosterone, you increase testosterone and estrogens, yes. That's what you want. You may grow muscle a little easier in the gym, but if you don't want that, just moderate your exercise program, or target only butt and pecs. The problem starts because hops is depressing at the dose I take. Then I take maca because there is an antidepressant in it that works very well with hops for me. Only, some women break out on maca. I never did, but then my body was once used to much higher DHT than what I have left now.
1:4 of 2,000 mg is 500 mg extract. An advantage of extracts is that they are made using alcohol. You get less sleepy than on the raw hops, and maybe less depressed too.
Hey Isabelle,
If you wouldn't mind I'd like to slip in a quick question or two of my own. Would you be able to explain the mechanism between muscle growth and free testosterone - more specifically what it means for estrogen levels? Essentially, I'm trying to achieve somewhat similar results to mochaccino. I am trying to put on a couple pounds anyway (well, more like another 15 and I'm using periactin in order to facilitate this), but I figured that if I take herbs to a] lower dht to a minimum, b] take phytoestrogens to encourage fat gain in the breasts, butt and hips, and c] increase free testoserone to not only promote muscle growth, but to therefore increase estrogen levels, taking herbs such as hops, wy, sp, and maca while lifting weights should be a win-win situation right?
In addition, would take an herb with prolactin result in the loss of butt and hip growth? I was doing research on the previous breast forums such as network54.com and i read that Prolactin is supposed to decrease LPL in the butt and thighs. Your thoughts?
Thank you in advance, your knowledge is unprecedented and I'm sure I speak for many more when I say how grateful we are for all your help!
ssag124
Thank you ssag124,
Your combination of herbs looks good. Your wording about DHT is correct too, and it's key in skeletal muscle growth from testosterone at low serum DHT. The "minimum" DHT level in serum will not stop growth of skeletal muscles, because those can make their own DHT from testosterone locally, without needing the liver for it.
Limiting DHT production in the liver will still maximize the portion of testosterone that ends up as estrogens. But even if you would want to, you can't decrease DHT in skeletal muscle to below a level that will stop muscle growth. That will only happen if testosterone itself decreases.
Estrogens are anabolic too. Women grow beautiful triceps and glutes quite easily, while biceps are more a male thing.
Prolactin is not a friend of women who struggle to get rid of cellulite. While in itself it's true that prolactin inhibits LPL in the butt and thighs and everywhere outside the breasts, focusing on this one action of prolactin overlooks all its other effects that will help you put on weight. It increases water retention in adipose tissue and slows down fat metabolism, to name only two.
There are women on this forum who grow bigger and bigger breasts while fitting into tighter and tighter jeans. They follow variants of MydreamisGcup's program, using PM, and staying away from fenugreek and maca and saw palmetto. PM suppresses prolactin.
I'll start a new bag of oat flakes tonight. I used 500 g in 7+31+25=63 days. That's 7,900 mg a day.
One of the things I want to try is more oat flakes. A typical portion as a breakfast cereal is 40 g. I'll ramp it up slowly, so if it does decrease Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, and sets free testosterone and DHT, it happens slow enough for my metabolism to take care of them.
(26-06-2012, 04:46 PM)Isabelle Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you ssag124,
Your combination of herbs looks good. Your wording about DHT is correct too, and it's key in skeletal muscle growth from testosterone at low serum DHT. The "minimum" DHT level in serum will not stop growth of skeletal muscles, because those can make their own DHT from testosterone locally, without needing the liver for it.
Limiting DHT production in the liver will still maximize the portion of testosterone that ends up as estrogens. But even if you would want to, you can't decrease DHT in skeletal muscle to below a level that will stop muscle growth. That will only happen if testosterone itself decreases.
Estrogens are anabolic too. Women grow beautiful triceps and glutes quite easily, while biceps are more a male thing.
Prolactin is not a friend of women who struggle to get rid of cellulite. While in itself it's true that prolactin inhibits LPL in the butt and thighs and everywhere outside the breasts, focusing on this one action of prolactin overlooks all its other effects that will help you put on weight. It increases water retention in adipose tissue and slows down fat metabolism, to name only two.
There are women on this forum who grow bigger and bigger breasts while fitting into tighter and tighter jeans. They follow variants of MydreamisGcup's program, using PM, and staying away from fenugreek and maca and saw palmetto. PM suppresses prolactin.
Thanks isabelle, for the most part i understand however I'm a little confused. Sorry if I'm missing the mark - but I'm relatively new in my knowledge of hormone and how they work for NBE. So are you suggesting that I shouldn't be taking maca, sp, and fg? If that's my case would you mind clarifying why? I was under the impression that maca and sp are both benefical to gaining weight in the lower body as well as up top. Should take not use fg or anything that raises prolactin? (I sure hope not because that would mean that most if not all of the phytoestrogen would be off limits therefore defeating the purpose of my $100 order of herbs
) Once again, sorry for all the questions I just want to make sure I'm doing things right the first time.
Oh no ssag124,
I meant exactly the opposite: You should use maca and SP and WY and FG, and herbs that raise prolactin. The women who avoid those herbs and use PM achieve something quite different from what you are after.
Hello Isabelle,
What do you think of lamb placenta? Someone named Chiyomilk used pig placenta but Ginie used the lamb version since she couldn't find the pig one. What would be the benefits of it for NBE, if any? I'm already taking so many things & also don't want to waste money but if you think highly of it I'll give it a try.
Can't thank you enough for sharing your vast knowledge with all of us who are in this NBE quest.