I'm still looking into the difference between GR and FG. This review lists only the galactogogue and antidiabetic effects of GR:
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus...2008.14602
I have found no articles about diosgenin in goat's rue. The plant has been thoroughly analysed chemically, though. Diosgenin is simply not in it.
GR is hypoglycemic, but I found nothing about GR increasing insulin. So GR may be a lot simpler to use than FG.
It's really important for me to know what exactly GR does to insulin. I want to keep the insulin level in my blood low, to slim my waist. The FG I use immediately increases insulin:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...V/abstract
Because both FG and GR increase insulin sensitivity, in the end, the pancreas will shoot less insulin into the blood stream when blood sugar rises. But it would be nice if I could get there without the immediate insulin increases from FG.
Most of the GR work done was on mice. A good summary is in this excellent overview of cortisol and insulin effects on weight loss:
http://www.vrp.com/stress/weight-loss-co...ted-pounds
Goat's rue helped all mice lose weight. But only in obese mice, insulin decreased after 28 days.
Since my Body Mass Index (BMI) is still just above 25, I'm technically obese. So I trust GR will decrease my insulin over time.
I drank all of my GR tea yesterday night, and this morning I woke up with a good swelling, and looking for things around the house to clean. So my prolactin is high enough when I take 3,000 mg FG at noon, and 6 cups of GR tea at night. Libido is OK, so I have enough progesterone from the FG, and not too much prolactin. My libido is normally low because of the anti-androgen in hops.
So I plan to make a whole pot of GR tea for today from 1,000 mg. And decrease FG to 2,000 mg. I may end up replacing all FG with GR, but that would leave me without a source of progesterone. But then I can still switch to FN seed tea for progesterone. I still have about 200 g of powdered FN seed here
No swelling, no libido. 2,000 mg of FG is clearly not enough: apparently, my progesterone decreased too much. Today, I upped FG to 3,000 mg again, and I'll see how much GR tea I can drink before too much prolactin from the FG and the GR shuts down my libido again.
Combining FG and GR got my libido in a catch 22. Too little FG, and libido shuts down because of too little progesterone. Too much FG + GR shuts libido down too, because of too much prolactin. But then I had no swelling this morning, and no urge to clean out a closet, so I may have lost more prolactin from decreasing the FG, than I gained from increasing the GR.
If I want to keep an acceptable libido, I may have to stop GR. The anti-androgen in my hops also decreases libido. If I decrease hops for better libido, I also lose phyto-estrogen, and may need to add another one, like PM.
Or I could follow Eve M's program more closely: the oats decrease Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), and free up testosterone. But after the sex drive did what it had to do, or after the home improvement project is done, I need to increase SHBG again, or else I break out or lose hair. Flax increases SHBG. But flax decreases the efficiency of the digestion of hops to estradiol. So I need more phyto-estrogen, maybe more than I can get from the flax. Maybe add soy? But that slows the thyroid. And so on, and so on.
The algebra of NBE appears to leave little flexibility around my program, or around Eve M's, for that matter. After I get my program running again, I'll try to add FN for progesterone next time I decrease FG. If that doesn't help, a second phyto-estrogen may be the only way left to tweak my program. Or combine a phyto-progestin with a second phyto-estrogen: RC?
I plan to break on October 5th. My stock of hops and my maca will just take me there, and I just opened another 250 g bag of FG. That means my daily doses are on average 2,000 mg hops, 3,000 mg maca, and 3,000 mg FG. I added 2 cups of GR tea (250 mg), but I can't go any higher than that, after the experiments in the last few days. I am decreasing hops and maca and FG slowly, so I won't be stopping abruptly on October 5th.
The algebra of NBE keeps me thinking. It's simple: I want to control 4 hormones: estradiol (E), dihydrotestosterone (T), progesterone (P), and prolactin (L). So I need 4 handles on my program. I only have 3: hops, maca, FG, since I found GR doesn't really change anything. It only gives me a little wiggle room to increase prolactin without increasing progesterone:
E T P L
+ - 0 0 hops
+ + 0 0 maca
+ 0 + + FG
0 0 0 + GR
To slim my waist, I need to keep insulin (I) and cortisol © low. To grow breasts in winter time, I need Human Growth Hormone (H) and Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (F). At high doses, hops decreases Insulin-like Growth Factor 1.
E T P L I C H F
+ - 0 0 0 0 + - hops
+ + 0 0 0 0 0 0 maca
+ 0 + + + + 0 0 FG
0 0 0 + 0 0 0 0 GR
0 0 + + 0 + 0 0 FN
0 0 0 0 0 0 + 0 L-arginine
So I will continue my attempts to replace FG by a combination of GR and FN. But for the winter, I need Insulin-like Growth Factor 1, because hops is already giving me the Human Growth Hormone. L-arginine won't help. What can I add to my routine for the growth factors?
Hey Isabelle!
I decided to ask you this on your thread instead of starting a new one, because I knew you would know the answer!
I just ran out of my fennel capsules, and I really can't afford to buy anything new right now. I have bulk fennel, which I will try to make into a tea, but I know I won't be as consistent with it.
I have the Greenbush Enhancement Blend capsules that contain fenugreek, wild yam, and saw palmetto. I have been cycling these combined with the fennel capsules during my luteal phase in my PM routine. Will any of these herbs (besides fennel) benefit me in the luteal phase (i.e. raise progesterone or other necessary hormones for the second half of my cycle)
I read somewhere that fenugreek can help raise progesterone, and I think I may have even read it from something that you wrote!
Thank you for your help in advance!!!
Hi NotSoBusty,
FG will increase progesterone, and I already thought that was because of the diosgenin in FG. Rats can make progesterone from diosgenin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12724917
There is more diosgenin in WY than in FG. But WY increases estrogens more than FG. So for luteal phase, I'd stick to FG.
FN is only important on days 20-23. So if you make 1 pot of FN tea on day 20, and keep it in the fridge for 4 days, you're done for the month
Hi Isabelle!
I am confused, why are some taking weak phytoestrogens in luteal phase? I know chiyomilk did that too, but I really want to know the benefit.
Aren't they supposed to focus on raising progesterone in luteal phase?
I also noticed that they take them in low doses, aren't low doses of PE not enough?
Ahh! Thank you, Isabelle!
Unfortunately, my capsules include fenugreek and wild yam together with saw palmetto. Hopefully my body gets the idea!! In this case, would it be a good idea to drink the fennel tea casually throughout the luteal phase, but even more so on days 20-23?
I don't know what I would do without you, Isabelle! You are such a blessing.
Thank you NotSoBusty,
Drinking FN tea casually during luteal phase, and religiously during days 20-23 will work. Believe me, you will know when you need it. After three days of foggy thinking and headaches before ovulation, you'll be happy one cup of tea can make you think clearly
Hi Melissa,
Follow the natural cycle. Estrogens drop two days before ovulation, and again three days before the end of the cycle. But they never actually drop to zero. Days 20-23 are progesterone dominant days. This only means you have to maintain more progesterone than estrogens during these days.
The success of Chiyomilk was that she used those days to take a little phyto-estrogens to keep her growth going, without actually becoming estrogen dominant. Keep a pitcher of FN tea in the fridge. Whenever you feel the estrogen taking over during luteal phase (headache, foggy thinking, nausea, depressed, low libido), have a cup or two