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The Comprehensive NBE Program
(30-11-2020, 09:44 PM)ShelaVenna Wrote:

Hi Joe. I hope you don’t mind me posting this question here. I think it’s somewhat relevant to this thread.

I know that oral estrogen supplementation lowers Igf-1 production. Do you know if any phytoestrogens have ever been shown or suspected to do the same? Especially pueraria mirifica? How much do you think circulating igf-1 really matters for breast growth (as opposed to local production)? I’m asking because I saw a reddit post about igf-1 by an endo that specializes in trans hrt. He said that he experimented with giving igf-1 to some of his patients, but he felt that it didn’t improve breast growth at all. I know you had another thread about women that injected igf-1 into their breasts. The only link you posted is broken, or maybe that post was removed from their forum. Do you have any links to reports of women doing this? If you don’t feel comfortable posting it here, please pm me. I’m asking this because, if the results of such an extreme method are less than stellar, that would be a very strong indication that focusing on igf-1 production is misguided. I’ve suspected for a long time that low igf-1 might be one of the main reasons my other nbe attempts failed, but now I’m not so sure. It would be nice to know whether or not I’m barking up the wrong tree.


One more question, lol. I know I already asked about fenugreek/shatavari saponins, but I read some things that I’d like to ask you about. I used to see people claiming that fenugreek raises the ceiling of the estrogen negative feedback loop, and that’s supposedly it’s main mechanism of action. I think I remember Wahaika being one of the main proponents of this theory, but it was ages ago, so I’m not sure. Would you say you agree with that idea? If so, why?


Sorry for bothering you again. Hopefully you at least find this interesting to think about.


EDIT: I just saw a study claiming that supplementing with “weak” phytoestrogens, like the ones in soy and flax, actually increases igf-1. Of course that doesn’t mean that stronger phytoestrogens are the same. I’m still pretty confused.

Hi sorry I didn’t notice this sooner.  I don’t know if estrogen lowers overall igf-1 or not.  I do know it triggers the release of local igf-1 at the breasts.  I just happened to be reading recently that both local igf-1 and circulating igf-1 can be helpful for breast growth, and circulating igf-1 can in fact make up for a lack of local igf-1 release.  For anyone who has trouble growing I suggest nutrition such as the foods in my signature.  Get your body working right and it can sort itself out.  That said, trying to increase igf-1 too wouldn’t hurt to try.  Yeah there is very little info on how much igf-1 helps or doesn’t help breast growth in humans, or how much is necessary.  And since there are many factors involved it may not woro at all at times just like estrogen alone may not always work.  I found one or maybe a couple animal studies and just that one single human example.  It’s definitely involved, but I don’t know if it’s an amplifier, bottleneck, requires a little or required a lot.  In the animal study an extremely large and inadvisable amount of IGF-1 and GH caused extreme mammary growth.  It was around the equivalent of going from B cup to J cup.  Either IGF-1 or GH alone had a partial effect too, with GH causing a little more than half of the growth.  DHEA may be a simple and cheap zero or near zero risk way to boost igf-1 a small amount, and probably other hormones too.  So it doesn’t hurt to try DHEA at least.  Mk-677 increases both igf-1 and GH btw, but it has legal issues and other minor issues.  Since fenugreek increases appetite and therefore ghrelin it probably increases both igf-1 and GH too, and with less issues.

I’m not sure exactly how fenugreek works but I know it increases the typical hormones and/or the effects of those hormones of the person using them and it works on a variety of hormones.  So estrogen and so on in women (but not men), testosterone and so on in men (but not women), and prolactin in nursing women (but not others).  And insulin, igf-1, gh, ghrelin, mood boosting compounds, etc. in everyone.  It might be by unregulating their production or increasing sensitivity to them or both, but I’m not sure.  At minimum it unregulates production of some.
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So just came by to make a minor update for how nbe hormones work after some reading including some studies.

Estrogen + progesterone + igf-1 + GH - testosterone => Boobs.  But there are some other factors too.
Estrogen + testosterone + igf-1 + GH => Butt and thighs.  Also has other factors.  Exercise and muscle also play a role in butt size.  Yet for some reason saw palmetto extract increases butt and thigh size instead of decreasing it.  Maybe DHT is different from other testosterone, or maybe SPE also has other effects.  While many women report growth from SPE and many men show improvement against high DHT symptoms, there’s lots of contradictory information on how exactly it accomplishes this.  I was also reading about how reishi may decrease DHT yet increase other testosterone and related effects.  Though a lot of that is probably because less T is converted to DHT.  DHT is stronger than regular T so overall it’s a decrease, but regular T has certain effects that DHT doesn’t and vis versa.  Generally DHT is the “bad” testosterone but a little is necessary for certain body functions.

So a pear shape might not only mean low progesterone.  It might also mean high testosterone or both.
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hi,

got a silly question here do we just put progesterone cream on our breast ? or need to massage with it??

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(21-03-2021, 01:35 AM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: So just came by to make a minor update for how nbe hormones work after some reading including some studies.

Estrogen + progesterone + igf-1 + GH - testosterone => Boobs.  But there are some other factors too.
Estrogen + testosterone + igf-1 + GH => Butt and thighs.  Also has other factors.  Exercise and muscle also play a role in butt size.  Yet for some reason saw palmetto extract increases butt and thigh size instead of decreasing it.  Maybe DHT is different from other testosterone, or maybe SPE also has other effects.  While many women report growth from SPE and many men show improvement against high DHT symptoms, there’s lots of contradictory information on how exactly it accomplishes this.  I was also reading about how reishi may decrease DHT yet increase other testosterone and related effects.  Though a lot of that is probably because less T is converted to DHT.  DHT is stronger than regular T so overall it’s a decrease, but regular T has certain effects that DHT doesn’t and vis versa.  Generally DHT is the “bad” testosterone but a little is necessary for certain body functions.

So a pear shape might not only mean low progesterone.  It might also mean high testosterone or both.




I've been a lurker for a while, but I really enjoy reading your information. Beyond helpful!


I have high testosterone and low progesterone and have the pear body type. Being on progesterone birth control alone has increased my bust size, which has caused me to look into NBE.

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(21-03-2021, 04:44 AM)pumpitup2021 Wrote:

hi,

got a silly question here do we just put progesterone cream on our breast ? or need to massage with it??



You can put it anywhere it says on the label, even your wrists iirc, and it will circulate everywhere.  No need to massage it but massage can be helpful regardless of what you apply.

Iceedragons, a progesterone IUD is usually much stronger than cream.  As it tends to be a synthetic progestin with side effects I would only use it for the purpose of birth control.  But if you’re already on one for that reason it’s something to consider.  Whether that means you have enough or it’s going so well that you want a little bit more via a cream you may have to guess and test.  Or it may be so much that it’s time to slowly add in estrogen such as pueraria mirifica.
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So this program that I’m undergoing isn’t completely natural, but I followed a lot of your advice when figuring out what my program will consist of. My dermatologist is prescribing me spironolactone for my hormonal acne, so that will be my testosterone blocker, I am on the hormonal IUD which is where my progesterone comes from (I’m also assuming that I already have quite a bit of progesterone already since my breasts are currently a D cup, but they do go down to a C cup once I lose weight). I’m going to be eating a Mediterranean Diet to aid in Hormone Balancing. And for my estrogen, I am either going to pay for Biote or take PM (or both). Then I will be working out my chest lifting weights 2-3 days a week and drink bone broth for Collagen. I’m not sure if I will pump or do breast massage yet. Not only do I want breast growth, but I’m also hoping that with this program, my fat will redistribute to my butt, hips and thighs. I have an android body shape (an Apple) which usually means I have higher amounts of testosterone. Plus I have excess amounts of hair where women don’t normally get hair, balding, and very bad hormonal acne all over. I’m hoping to remedy all these things by doing this program. Thank you for making this post or else I wouldn’t have known what I needed!

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