[Tinytots]

Thanks isobasic & AbiDrew - that is very useful information to know, thank you so much.

AbiDrew - I've already bought my fish oil, I've got these ones - http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=146&prodid=421 - so I hope they're okay. Holland & Barrett are a well known company in the UK so hopefully they should be.

Not sure if I'll buy from here again, it's just that when I bought them there was an offer on for "buy one bottle and get another one for 1p". So when I run out I will just find the best deal, so yes please, if you could give me some reputable brands I would be most grateful. I live in the UK.

I look forward to your comments on them.



Many thanks

Hmmm... Not finding a whole lot about what that's a rebrand of. It will be a rebrand, and it looks suspiciously like Solgar. Solgar is highly disreputable for fish oils.

Honestly Solgar is not very reputable for anything.

Holland & Barrett is a UK retailer is it not? Not really necessarily known for making their own stuff... Just like in the US they rebrand stuff.

OMG, yeah. They're ALL Solgar rebrands, just found their cod liver oil supplements and those numbers smack of Solgar through and through.

They don't carry a single reputable brand...

http://www.seventhwaveuk.com/52-cod-live...ented.html

What company in the United States is the best for supplements AbiDrew

[AbiDrew85]

OMG, I don't really want to take them now.

Also, I'm not going to buy anything from them again because all their products are Solgar.

You say "and those numbers smack of Solgar through and through" - which numbers are those? How can you tell? What do I look for so I can check myself for future buying from retailers.

Thank you also for the reputable link - much appreciated.

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=505&prodid=136#.UnxKF9dCpEY

The supplement facts panel on the right.

I can't seem to find the Solgar anymore, but basically, 10:1 ratio of Vitamin's A and D without any disclaimer of natural variation means they used processing that destroyed the natural purity of the fish oil, then put stuff back in. Then the numbers for EPA and DHA are higher than reported on any reputable brand and still no disclaimer of natural variation, which means they're making that up out of thin air.

And it looks EXACTLY like the Solgar used to before they were apparently forced to take that particular product off the market... Looks like they found a way to sell it anyways.

It'll be laced with synthetic replacements for stuff they destroyed in very destructive processing.

[AbiDrew85]

What company in the United States is the best for supplements AbiDrew

Depends on the supplement. For things they actually carry, Swanson's is excellent, but there are some things, such as cod liver oil, they don't even carry. They only carry lesser "fish oils" which are made by combining several heavily processed fish oils together and further heavily processing them.

Green Pastures Blue ICE brand is sold in the US as well, you can buy it on Amazon and other places, no idea where it's cheapest at atm. Different retailers will offer different deals at different times.

[LookingForward2NBE]

Seems like a trend but I disagree with Abi and Salmon being the best.

Fish-----
Salmon is commonly farm raised now and most salmon oil is from farmed fished as wild salmon command a premium as a whole fish. Farm raised salmon omega3 is a poor source when compared to open ocean fish. They is emerging data gmo may be making it the food they are fed.

One thing that is critical is that it be molecularly distilled or cold filtered with molecularly distilled being the best. I can't stress that enough. Other wise the processing of the oil renders a lot of the natural materials dead and useless. The omega part of the oil is only a part of the oil.

Be careful as well of getting grossly unbalanced fish oils that are high in dha and low in EPA. Data is emerging that its not as beneficial. The dha craze was a result of fetal + todler brain development in enhancement of cognitive function.

Stick with either Sardine and mackeral based formulas with a balanced ratio. People have started to look at squid but its inferior and seal is interesting but you have to consider the moral issue of the seal hunt and because its a top predator can be high in toxic metals etc.

Or

"Fermented" Cod Liver if want the best cod liver oil. Source: Green pastures.
Otherwise you can with plain Jane cod liver oil.

Doseage form: Do not get capsule if you can take the oil directly. Get the ones opaque glass jars in liquid form. The Softgel gel manufacturing uses pig gelatin (which or may not be an issue for you religiously) and introduces signficant heat. Additionally, it tends to cause the oil to rancify much much quicker. Its amazing how many don't get that encapsulating fish is a bad idea. Liquid 2 piece capsule and softgels use a more inert carrier oil that is way more stable. Which depends on the marketing companies perference compatibilty with the ingredients.

Ala----
Make its the R-isomer as the L one is not bioavailable so ~50% of the oil will not be used and simply excreted and money down the drain.
Within products of R+Ala get that is sustained release as you end up absorbing more of the oil over time as your body very quickly conjugates and excretes it. So R+ Ala SR (now that's a mouthful)

Avoid! ------
Algae based dha and ara forms; the residual solvent load is potential quite harmful (hexane and others). Depending where's it made and qualified.. I can see it being a big deal some day. Problem is many baby formulas are it for brain development even data is suggesting it not well absorbed so its not worth it other then a marketing angle and calming mothers of formula fed babys.

[AbiDrew85]

Yes... Your salmon DOES have to be wild. But who DOESN'T know that? But if you get wild caught salmon twice a week your EPA and DHA levels will be more than satisfied and perfectly balanced. It's the ONLY kind of fish with levels that high and in such perfect balance. Even once a week ought to do it for most women, who tend to weigh less than 150 pounds. Men who weigh less than that also should only need to eat a single small serving of salmon once a week. Only people who weigh more should eat a small serving of salmon twice a week.

Also, NO! Cold pressed aka filtered is the best! Molecularly distilled is only better if you're dealing with a bad source to begin with, and then ONLY if they don't put things back in with synthetics that they stripped away, which too many of them do. Like the Solgar.

Carlson's uses yet another process that's even better on their not-the-best source fish. This process eliminates all the toxins in the first step, pulling out a lot of the other vitamins and minerals, and then in the second step they separate the vitamins from the minerals, and then they put the NATURAL vitamins back in - WIN! Some of the vitamin D is destroyed in this process, so it still ends up with a roughly 10:1 ratio, but they put a natural variation disclaimer on the label, and the epa and dha numbers are also accurate with said disclaimer.

Sardine and mackerel based formula's are generally balanced, but they're piss poor sources in comparison.

As for capsule vs straight oil. I do agree. But MOST people who can't stomach fish, can't stomach straight fish oil, and even those who can just barely manage the more refined oils can't stomach the fermented cod liver. That stuff is ridiculously fishy.

Also. Green Pasture's capsules are cold process, non-gelatin capsules. They aren't harming the product any, but they do slow down absorption, like anything with capsules will. Their capsules are made using a cold process using beeswax and plant cellulose. They're the best most vegan friendly and least harmful type of capsules modern technology has come up with. Look it up. They also disintegrate in the stomach more quickly than any other type of capsule.

As for all your ALA stuff... The simple fact is we don't need to supplement ALA. Trying to supplement ALA is vegan only. And as I mentioned, it does a very very poor job of converting down to epa and dha. Most women are lucky if they convert 3% of it. Men if they convert 1%. And that's of the part we absorb. ALA is best absorbed in whole unrefined forms, and good luck eating enough of it.

[djt-d]

Thanks AbiDrew

I can't see where it says "10:1 ratio of Vitamin's A and D" - I can only see "source of vitamins A and D" under "Other Ingredients". Please can you point it out for me, thanks.

I still can't see or understand how you can tell they're not a good buy. So, for my future buys, what does the label actually have to say so I know it is a trusted brand?

Also, does this apply for all supplements/herbs? Because, I've just started taking EPO to hopefully achieve some growth. The EPO I'm taking is this one -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002GJRKL0/re..._M3T1_dp_1

Many thanks

[LookingForward2NBE]

Yes... Your salmon DOES have to be wild. But who DOESN'T know that? But if you get wild caught salmon twice a week your EPA and DHA levels will be more than satisfied and perfectly balanced. It's the ONLY kind of fish with levels that high and in such perfect balance. Even once a week ought to do it for most women, who tend to weigh less than 150 pounds. Men who weigh less than that also should only need to eat a single small serving of salmon once a week. Only people who weigh more should eat a small serving of salmon twice a week.

Also, NO! Cold pressed aka filtered is the best! Molecularly distilled is only better if you're dealing with a bad source to begin with, and then ONLY if they don't put things back in with synthetics that they stripped away, which too many of them do. Like the Solgar.

Carlson's uses yet another process that's even better on their not-the-best source fish. This process eliminates all the toxins in the first step, pulling out a lot of the other vitamins and minerals, and then in the second step they separate the vitamins from the minerals, and then they put the NATURAL vitamins back in - WIN! Some of the vitamin D is destroyed in this process, so it still ends up with a roughly 10:1 ratio, but they put a natural variation disclaimer on the label, and the epa and dha numbers are also accurate with said disclaimer.

Sardine and mackerel based formula's are generally balanced, but they're piss poor sources in comparison.

As for capsule vs straight oil. I do agree. But MOST people who can't stomach fish, can't stomach straight fish oil, and even those who can just barely manage the more refined oils can't stomach the fermented cod liver. That stuff is ridiculously fishy.

Also. Green Pasture's capsules are cold process, non-gelatin capsules. They aren't harming the product any, but they do slow down absorption, like anything with capsules will. Their capsules are made using a cold process using beeswax and plant cellulose. They're the best most vegan friendly and least harmful type of capsules modern technology has come up with. Look it up. They also disintegrate in the stomach more quickly than any other type of capsule.

As for all your ALA stuff... The simple fact is we don't need to supplement ALA. Trying to supplement ALA is vegan only. And as I mentioned, it does a very very poor job of converting down to epa and dha. Most women are lucky if they convert 3% of it. Men if they convert 1%. And that's of the part we absorb. ALA is best absorbed in whole unrefined forms, and good luck eating enough of it.

The OP was asking about supplements not WHOLE food so your point about 2x a meaningless. And as for whole doesn't know... Easily 50% of the population.

Your insane if you believe cold pressed is best because of ensuring good sources. Technically, all fish now are contaminated.. how much is the question. Thr fish that oil manufactures use is material rejected for whole food consumption and borderline fit for human consumption but not bad enough for pet foods. So taking to consideration everyone needs to be careful on how they are consuming of oily fish (exactly why you say 2x a week) is for that reason. So MD is still the best and safest approach to fish oils. Period.

Especially if fish oil is the only source fish in your diet and you choose to do so over a long period of time! As for the proprietary method... Yeah everyone with their own inhouse method says that... Hardly makes it fact (eye roll).

Vitamin D (Eye roll) - go outside and open your unshaded eyes for 15mins. Get a blood test if your concerned and then supplement according. Hardly any reason to consider fish oil as a source of vitamin d. That's complicating an issue for no reason.

Capsules slowing digestion.. By how much - you probably haven't a clue??? I personally did a study comparing the dissolution rate of tablets, to 2 piece gelatin capsules, to 2 hpmc capsules to Softgel capsules using USP methods at a FDA registered facility. I wrote the protocol, design and analyzed the data. Wanna know what... At 80% dissolution, the difference between all of then was less then 5mins! Once any capsule achieved a break point (did not require for dissolved state) all the content began fast evacuation. The study was done to create a marketing claim. That's hardly a reason for any real world consideration of faster or slower absorption.

If you believe farm raised gmo feed salmon oil is better then wild caught sardine or mackeral then so be it. Its up to individuals to make informed decisions based on data given to them and their own research. Even then even wild caught its nearly the same but for me. I'll take a sardine meal anyday since you can eat the bones for additional benefits.

I have no problem with green pastures. I use their butter oil. That said, I still maintain that the liquid form is the ideal one and that the encapsulated version is more like to go off quicker.

As for ALA - there is nothing wrong with it and has many benefits. Making such bold statements when there is a lot of research abouts its benefits is silly. not the ideal souce for omegas yes, but still has useful benefits.

[AbiDrew85]

Thanks AbiDrew

I can't see where it says "10:1 ratio of Vitamin's A and D" - I can only see "source of vitamins A and D" under "Other Ingredients". Please can you point it out for me, thanks.

I still can't see or understand how you can tell they're not a good buy. So, for my future buys, what does the label actually have to say so I know it is a trusted brand?

Also, does this apply for all supplements/herbs? Because, I've just started taking EPO to hopefully achieve some growth. The EPO I'm taking is this one -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002GJRKL0/re..._M3T1_dp_1

Many thanks

You have to look at the vitamin A and D numbers and do some quick math, since it IS 10:1 A you can tell right away. 5:3 is the NATURAL ratio.

Uhm. For CLO:

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oi...oil-basics

For other supplements it depends... unfortunately you picked another under performer brand for your EPO, they use very little EPO and fill it with soybean oil.

It won't be BAD if you're not allergic to soy, but it's hardly the best pick either.

Basically you've gotta do your homework on the brands. The info is out there...

Your insane if you believe cold pressed is best because of ensuring good sources. Technically, all fish now are contaminated.. how much is the question. Thr fish that oil manufactures use is material rejected for whole food consumption and borderline fit for human consumption but not bad enough for pet foods. So taking to consideration everyone needs to be careful on how they are consuming of oily fish (exactly why you say 2x a week) is for that reason. So MD is still the best and safest approach to fish oils. Period.

Name one, JUST ONE brand that uses MD and doesn't put synthetic vitamins A and D in after OTHER than Carlson's. Carlson's step one IS MD. It's the step 2 that's different from anyone else that uses MD. Everyone else just puts synthetics in, Carlson's separates the Vitamins from the Minerals and puts the NATURAL vitamins back in.

Also, while you are correct, you'd be surprised just how pristine SOME waters are still. There's a certain very deep trench off of Norway that's somehow due to the way the currents flow or something, still very clean. Yes, there's contaminants still, but not nearly to the dangerous levels of other waters.

My point against MD is the use of synthetic vitamins. If they didn't use synthetic vitamins and just left them alone with the vitamins destroyed that'd be fine. But they don't.

Especially if fish oil is the only source fish in your diet and you choose to do so over a long period of time! As for the proprietary method... Yeah everyone with their own inhouse method says that... Hardly makes it fact (eye roll).

Talking about Carlson's method of putting natural vitamins back in or about Green Pastures encapsulation method?

Again, if there's even just ONE brand out there that uses MD and doesn't put either synthetics OR natural vitamins back in, I'd recommend that even more than either cold process fermented OR Carlson's method.

Vitamin D (Eye roll) - go outside and open your unshaded eyes for 15mins. Get a blood test if your concerned and then supplement according. Hardly any reason to consider fish oil as a source of vitamin d. That's complicating an issue for no reason.

That's my WHOLE POINT. Putting synthetics in is BAD BAD BAD, yet that's what everyone doing MD (except Carlson's) is doing! Also with Vitamin A, most of us are fine on it if we're eating remotely healthy, and vegetarian sources of vitamin A are superior to animal sources are superior to synthetic vitamin A!

Capsules slowing digestion.. By how much - you probably haven't a clue??? I personally did a study comparing the dissolution rate of tablets, to 2 piece gelatin capsules, to 2 hpmc capsules to Softgel capsules using USP methods at a FDA registered facility. I wrote the protocol, design and analyzed the data. Wanna know what... At 80% dissolution, the difference between all of then was less then 5mins! Once any capsule achieved a break point (did not require for dissolved state) all the content began fast evacuation. The study was done to create a marketing claim. That's hardly a reason for any real world consideration of faster or slower absorption.

LOL, here we go again with you working in a million different specialty fields. My god, how old are you to have at least like 4 different Masters degrees and a couple PhD's?

And that was kind of my point... Not REALLY any consideration to really worry about.

If you believe farm raised gmo feed salmon oil is better then wild caught sardine or mackeral then so be it. Its up to individuals to make informed decisions based on data given to them and their own research. Even then even wild caught its nearly the same but for me. I'll take a sardine meal anyday since you can eat the bones for additional benefits.

Except your sardines and mackerel are even more toxic than wild salmon, only provide half as much EPA and DHA per serving size, and contain added salt and other harmful nasties.

I didn't say farm raised salmon was good, did I? I said wild caught. Wild caught salmon is better than wild caught sardines or mackerel.

Want my sources?

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4706?fg=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=25&qlookup=salmon&offset=0&sort=&format=Full&reportfmt=other&rptfrm=&ndbno=&nutrient1=&nutrient2=&nutrient3=&subset=&totCount=&measureby=&_action_show=Apply+Changes&Qv=1&Q8994=6.0&Q8995=0.5

A 6 oz serving of wild coho salmon provides nearly 700mg of EPA and more than a gram of DHA.

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4668?fg=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=25&qlookup=salmon&offset=0&sort=&format=Full&reportfmt=other&rptfrm=&ndbno=&nutrient1=&nutrient2=&nutrient3=&subset=&totCount=&measureby=&_action_show=Apply+Changes&Qv=1&Q8925=6.0&Q8926=0.5

Wild Atlantic salmon same EPA, twice the DHA.

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4551?fg=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=25&sort=&qlookup=sardines&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=

A can of sardines had as you can see, only about 400-500mg.

And take a look at all those nasty salts!

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4510?fg=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=25&sort=&qlookup=mackerel&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=

Mackerel, 400 and 600, but at least it doesn't have all the nasties of sardines.

Compared, though, WILD SALMON IS STILL THE BEST.

I have no problem with green pastures. I use their butter oil. That said, I still maintain that the liquid form is the ideal one and that the encapsulated version is more like to go off quicker.

Liquid is ideal? Encapsulated "go off quicker?" What the hell are you on about? I agreed liquid is better, but not if you can't stomach fish. I told them to eat salmon, they still wanted supplements, which told me they can't stomach fish. If by "go off quicker" you mean go bad? No... As I said before, Green Pastures encapsulation process does not use heat and is perfectly fine.

As for ALA - there is nothing wrong with it and has many benefits. Making such bold statements when there is a lot of research abouts its benefits is silly. not the ideal souce for omegas yes, but still has useful benefits.

It is an omega 3... All it's "benefits" are in lieu of getting proper omega 3's.

Omega 6's are another matter, and EPO is a good omega 6. IF YOU AREN'T GETTING ENOUGH IN YOUR DIET.

[djt-d]

Thanks AbiDrew, but I still don't know how you work it out

Re EPO - I am taking it as I've read lots of reports that if you take 3000-4000mg per day with at least 9% GLA over a period of at least 6 months it can make your breasts bigger. But now you're saying it doesn't have much EPO in so this isn't going to work now is it?
You're very knowledgable, wish I could understand things better,
Please, are you able to suggest any good EPO brands within the UK with 3000-4000 per day? And I will look for some more if you could tell me what I need to be seeing printed on the label. Am I right in thinking it should just say EPO and no other ingredients (eg: the vitamin E)? And what about the capsule shell ?
Again, many thanks

[AbiDrew85]

When you find something you think you might want to buy, just Google the brand name and product name and see what turns up, if there's nothing negative, it's probably a good buy. Being wary of rebrands, of course. Swanson's rebrands are usually of good stuff though, but they aren't in the UK. I don't know as much about UK stuff, since I'm in the US.

The BETTER approach is to Google what you're looking to buy with the terms "best" and "review" and see what turns up. UK Google ought to give UK results first.