[karen]

There is a Menohop with hops alone, and another one with hops and soy. Since the researchers who developed it, published on the dietary factors affecting metabolism to equol too, I assume it contains a probiotic to help digest daidzein to equol.

Now the drawback to taking the Menohops IS once I get that bacteria established (if I don't have it now) I will have to be REAL Carefull with my Isoflavine consumption .... since I don't stall .... everything will be converted .... I may find myself falling over frontwards

Karen ....

[Isabelle]

Well, you could always start quietly with some dietary adjustments. Even alcohol may help:
http://www.actahort.org/books/848/848_25.htm

[karen]

Morning Isabelle,

Whelp after trying several places I finally found a place where I could buy Menohops (with Soy and Hops) and they would ship to the US and accept PayPal ... so I ordered 90 Capsules. I suspect MORE than enough ... but it does give me an options of taking some "booster" shots along the way. Guess we'll see how this works out.

I was toying with trying PM again ... but I'd rather stick with known herbs ... there aren't 100% perfect BUT I have a better idea of what I am taking with them.

Right now I have been taking SP, Hops, and FG .... plus my Testim.

I held off on taking the FG to see if I noticed any changes ... which I did. There was for sure a movement of fatty tissue to my breast area. Then I added the FG and they became fuller (more rounded).

I'm still trying to decide How Much and How Often of everything. I think (especially since I take extracts for SP, and Hops, and Capsules for FG and they are easy to take) that I would like to take all three several times a day .... my thinking is that I can maintain a consistant level of all three in my blood stream. If I take them in a single dose each day I'm thinking that I will peak and then drop off until I take the next dose. What I'm still kinda lost at is how much SP, how much Hops, and how much FG should I take at each dose if I were to take them each 3 times per day .... once in the AM, once near bedtime, and once in between the two.

I'm also thinking that the extracts (SP and Hops) are not as potent as the label says they are ... just a feeling based on symptoms as I increase or reduce a dosage for each of the three.

With FG (Capsules) I can see results anytime that I take 3 or 4 610 mg capsules. Around 3 hours afterwards I feel a flushed warming and around 4 1/2 hours afterwards I can detect a swelling. The 3-4 area seems to be right at the border .... the 4 says for sure .... the 3 is not as pronounced. I do feel the fullness go away maybe 8 hours afterwards ... the other question is does the FG have a "holdback" effects on NBE. I don't want to get "mesmorized" by the temporary swelling and fullness .... as I've said in the past ... I'm not intent of having permanent boobies, but I don't want to "mask" whats really going on.

Thoughts Oh wise Herb One?

Your Buddy .... Karen

[Isabelle]

Haha Karen,

I just don't know. I'm experimenting with doses and timing myself now, of goat's rue, because of this thread mochaccino started:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11687&pid=48454#pid48454

The theory with swelling is that it becomes permanent after a few months of near permanent swelling. Because you don't have to worry about stalling, I can't see why you couldn't take 3 or 4 capsules three times a day.

For hops, you have to watch sleepiness and depression, though. I use the dose that just gives me vivid dreams. That's 3,000 mg for my 176 lbs.

I would never take more SP than just what you need to keep androgen symptoms at bay. About 620 mg of extract or 3,000 mg of whole berries should be enough. You'll probably need less because of the hops.

[karen]

I would never take more SP than just what you need to keep androgen symptoms at bay.

Hi ....

I don't think I've ever see you as emphatic about not taking too much of something ... you tend to gauge by watching symptoms ... what's the skinny on SP? I'll for sure watch how much I take ...

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

I'm mainly afraid of what I posted here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=31857#pid31857
The thread on the bodybuilders forum I linked there is worth reading too.

Too bad I couldn't find any scientific literature about this, but I think the idea is sound. Only skeletal muscle growth reacts to testosterone directly. All other organs react to the androgen signal through DHT. Most people are aware of that. But what surprised me in that thread was that these other organs include the brain. Many people know that too. But what this means in practice, is that too much anti-androgens will make you miss out on the effects of DHT on the brain. You won't be sorry about aggression. But libido, good mood, and the ability to cope with stress? Many effects of DHT on the brain are desirable, and I'm afraid the level-headedness of sfem and Pansy Mae is one of them.

[karen]

Glad you posted that ....

I came across a similar article by a Doctor/Researcher type person ... I'm not sure where ... I may have saved it at work. It's not here but I will check on Monday ... had somethig in it like "The Truth About DHT" .... and it was saying the same things. I forgot all about it. Like I said, thanks for posting .... funny, the past few days I have been feeling unexpectantly "grump" ... it's like I was feeling more and more "at peace" and then as I upped SP and Hops I started to feel, like I said ... "Grumpy"

I was more experimenting with the SP than anything ... so I will cut back. When the Menohop comes (Hops and Soy based) I'll see if that changes anything .... it would be real nice if I was able to regulate the Estradiol levels and keep them at a good level without having to "suck every inch" out of DHT production.

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

I'd be obliged if you found the reference. I'm in the early stages of writing a step-by-step NBE guide, and one good recent scientific reference for each essential step is all I need

Yesterday, I tested swelling from goat's rue. I drank four cups from 1,500 mg goat's rue each, and each time, I gained 1 cm (3/8 ") after half an hour. The swelling decreases over the next one and a half hours. Fenugreek swells too, and licorice tea makes the swelling from goat's rue last half an hour longer:

All measurements are without massage.
09:30 3,000 mg maca and 10 g L-arginine
11:00 111 cm, 1,500 mg goat's rue tea
11:30 112 cm
12:00 111 cm, 2,500 mg fenugreek
12:30 111 cm, 2 pizza sandwiches with oregano
13:00 112 cm
13:30 111 cm
14:00 111 cm
14:30 110 cm, 1,500 mg goat's rue tea, 10 g L-arginine, 1 glass red wine
15:00 111 cm
15:30 111 cm, tomato
16:00 111 cm, 1,500 mg goat's rue tea, 1,000 mg licorice tea
16:30 112 cm, 1,000 mg licorice tea
17:00 112 cm
17:30 111 cm
18:00 110 cm, 1,500 mg goat's rue tea
18:30 112 cm

[karen]

I'll do my best Isabelle ....

I've tried a zillion searches and have not found it ... hopefully I did save it at work.

Also ... I was playing with google searches this AM ..... I searched on "hormone feedback loop" .... lots of good reading. Tons of info about what things affect other things and how?

Here's an example

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pat...index.html


Karen

[Isabelle]

Thank you Karen,

This looks like an endocrinology 101. I already asked my daughter if I could borrow her books at the end of the year

Don't put too much trouble into the searches. Given some time, relevant scientific literature always shows up on this forum.

I'm a bit worried about yesterday's dinner and dessert with my daughter and a friend of hers. It's Sunday afternoon, which is normally the low point in my weekly weight cycle, and I'm at 81.5 kg. Better get some exercise.