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Long time hops & FG user
I'm impressed by the good people and the wealth of knowledge here. Wish you all good luck on your journey. Here are my stats, what I've done so far, and new plans.

Sex: M
Age: 50
Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 180 lbs
Band: 36 (bra band size: actual tape measurement is 38)
Cup: C (D for shelf bras)
Three children ages 18, 15, 14, none breastfed, wish I could haveSmile
No physical disorders or abnormalities, but my father had breast cancer at age 64.
No medications
Vitamins: multi and 200 mg C
Supplements: skin-hair-nails, co-enzyme Q10, ginkgo biloba, brewer's yeast, glucosamine
Diet: high carb, mostly fruit, only 2 days a week fish, eggs, or meat
Exercise: cut back to walking, cycling, gardening, to avoid muscle build up

Formula: Erdic "breast-gro" 4 capsules (3500 mg total hops), works for me, even without FG.
Herbs: FG 10,000 (!) mg in weekly cycles, tried SP and WY but those only woke me up at night.
Massage: used to extract FG in alcohol, later in soy oil, now dry massage only.
Tea: peppermint + licorice mix, started FN again.
Status: stalled, but double Erdic or FG doses still cause swelling.

I admit I should have started reading this forum years ago.
I'm cutting FG to 3000 mg immediately, stop supplements and carbs, then break on MT.
After the break, at summer solstice, make batter again, ramp up, switch Erdic to hops powder.
This should bring me close to Eve M's program.
Not sure about re-starting SP, may try spearmint tea or others instead. (Gorgeous Blonde?)
Thinking about maca, but only if it fits in the program. (Wahaika?)

Would appreciate help on the anti-androgen, and on maca.

Thanks for this A list resource!

A week on milk thistle. I recognise the side effects Periwinkle and Twister Mama reported, but stuck to the dose of 3 * 250 mg daily, so I didn't feel as bad as the horrible things Twister Mama went through. Stomach ache and diarrhea only on day two. Slight tingles all over my skin.

Except for the maca root, I'm all stocked up for the July-September ramp:

http://www.amazingoriental.com at Beverwijk:
powdered fennel seeds 250 g € 1.50
powdered fenugreek seeds 250 g € 0.95
whole fenugreek seeds 250 g € 0.89
whole black cumin seeds (nigella sativa) 250 g € 1.75

"Moroccan mint" (mix of peppermint and licorice) 20 teabags € 0.97 2*
broken flaxseed (linseed) 400 g € 1.89
oat flakes 500 g € 0.99

borage oil 60 capsules 1000 mg € 14.99

Erdic "breast-gro" hops formula 884 mg 128 capsules € 40 (leftover from before the break)
"man vitaal prostaat" formula pumpkin seed oil, stinging nettle root, saw palmetto 60 capsules € 6.99 3*
(this formula is a lower priced copy of bional prostanol)

http://www.jacob-hooy.nl at Amsterdam since 1743
dried hops, not powdered 200 g € 7.40
the webshop carries lower priced powdered hops ("hop gemalen") 250 g € 6.10

http://www.vanderpigge.nl at Haarlem since 1849
active maca root powder BIO Mattisson 300 g € 16.95

Total € 110.22 for 3 months

Of course, I'm not going to buy the Erdic formula again. That knocks off another € 40 for the spring ramp. And I intend to make a choice between pumpkin seed oil, stinging nettle root, and saw palmetto.
Went to http://www.vanderpigge.nl again today to buy
active maca root powder BIO Mattisson 300 g € 16.95
absolute barley grass powder BIO Mattisson 125 g € 18.95

I grew up between tons of barley grass, and now it's 15 cents per gramme Dodgy

Next month, I want to start a European herbs programme, like Eve M's. Wonderup is also similar, and I grew for the first time in 2006 on a formula called "breast-gro" by Erdic, and again last year when I added fenugreek powder. Two weeks ago, I added fennel and had tingles.

The common elements in these programs are
hops for the phyto-estrogens,
fennel and fenugreek for the phyto-estrogens and prolactin,
borage (starflower) oil for GLA,
barley and/or rye for azelaic acid,
and oat tops as a source of essential amino acids, B vitamins, and zinc.

Fennel is also a weak progestin, so I will take less fennel than hops and fenugreek:
Anti-androgens are GLA and the combination of azelaic acid, vitamin B6, and zinc:
I want to stay away from oat tops, it's an androgen:
My multivitamin will take care of B and E vitamins and zinc, but I have to eat more meat for the amino acids. I may add a collagen supplement.
I will not use GABA or another HGH supplement before fall.

When I am well into the ramp up, I will add maca root powder to grow my hips. I'm afraid the above anti-androgens may not keep up, so I have a saw palmetto - stinging nettle root - pumpkin seed oil formula, just in case.
First I want to say your funny.. Second you have everything so nicely made out.. and I read some interesting info of what you wrote thanks..especially the fennel..it makes me feel weird when i drink it.. SP I try not to take near bedtime cause it too wakes me up.. but since doing these herbs and even though I am waking up in the middle of the night and going to bed late I still get up not late and I dont feel that tired...in the past I felt like I could sleep all day..I believe the carbs and sugar play a bigger role with that..

Very nice plan and layout of your program. My mom also past away in 2007 from breast cancer and it spread to her liver.. from her diagnosis to her death was 7 yrs..my dad gave her herbs/vitamins you name it..if he didnt I think she would have past sooner.

haha..sorrry starting to ramble...Rolleyes

Keep us updated.. k..
Thank you, Susan,

and so sorry to read about your mom. Those 7 years must have been horrible. My dad's cancer was the reason for me to start reading on herbs for serious. There was a scientific study back then showing that NBE amounts of soy could help protect against breast cancer. Years later, the "one million women study" in the UK concluded that herbal supplements were safer for women in menopause than synthetic hormones.

You are right about the fennel tea. Starting early June, I ramped it up to 8 cups a day, to check whether it would be wise to use after my break. I did feel tingles, but it made me feel like my skin was too tight all over, and I also felt light headed. I'll stick to the 1-2 cups Wahaika advises, and keep an eye on the progestinic effect: if I get a feeling it stops growth, it goes out.

SP also woke me up when I tried it a few years ago. I never understood why, because men - tmi alert - usually wake up between 2 and 3 am if they have an enlarged prostate, and SP is supposed to help against that. Thanks for the tip to take it only in the morning and at noon: going to try that too!

Like you, I have cut carbs, and eliminated the simple ones almost completely. The effect on my energy level and sleep pattern is exactly as you describe.

Thanks for your reaction: I recognise all the issues you bring up, and that gives me a feeling that this program is going to work as expected, I mean like I didn't overlook anything big.
Hey sorry to hear about you dad too.. Actually the 7 yrs wasnt that bad it was the last 6 months.. I know it was the herbs and vitamins that my dad gave her...she had more energy then me...

I like the tight skin feeling from fennelTongue makes me feel young..maybe your 8 cups made it feel like a mummy..lol I only was drinking 1-2..I will try again and see what the feeling were again.. it did make me feel tired or lightheaded I think..

Haha took an SP last night.. well I got the gasp for air thing but once I get some water I am better.. I wonder if we need to drink more water...dont know.. I think Wahaika said to drink alot with herbs.. Ooooo I went to bed early last night even taking the SP but I didnt take GABA I wonder if that was making my sleep worse.. haha most things have opposite effect on me..or I need to take more then 500mg of the GABA..more experimentingRolleyes plus I didnt take my msm could have been that keeping upHuh and didnt take my collagen or vitc. or cal/mag.. I know bad girl..did take the borage oil..and 2 FG and 1 SP.

Hey check out the reply Wahaika gave meBig Grin


I feel like I am in school and I just got and A+..Tongue..lol
Yes, that's an A+ all right!

Keep going.
hi isabelle,

if fennel has a progestinic effect, should i only take it during the later half oh my cycle (being a woman)? would taking too much fennel hinder my growth? i just bought a bag of fennel seeds and i'm eating or adding it to my tea throughout the day. i've just started doing that, but was wondering if it's a bad idea to take more fennel than FG?

also, based on your experience, do you think GABA makes a good addition to NBE program?

i've been cutting down on carbs and sugar too and feeling great. i battled with acne when i started NBE last year. i found taking zinc helps alleviate the inflamed acne tenfold! i'm taking plenty of vitamin D, B, and Zinc now.
Hi lled34aa,

Thank you for your post: it's full of interesting questions, and you really have me thinking.

The progestinic effect of fennel is not very strong, but yes, you might benefit from using it only during the latter half of your cycle. The last pages of Ginie's program thread contain good tips on working with your cycle. Since it is progestinic, too much fennel may indeed hinder your growth. You will produce milk: fennel's strongest effect is to increase prolactin. Off the top of my head, Eve M's program and Greenbush kit#2 have half as much fennel as fenugreek. Be careful with how much you dose: eating out of a bag caused me to really overdose fenugreek.

Try making a stock of fennel tea, and keep it in the fridge. I used a coffee maker and powdered seeds, after cleaning all the coffee taste out twice: fennel with coffee tastes really bad. Then you can ramp up a cup a day until you feel weird or your tingles stop. I tried that just before my break, because it may take a long break to get going again after dosing too much.

I haven't used GABA so far, but Wahaika recommends it for over 50s during the winter months as a source of growth hormone. You are 5' 1" and 29, so you never lacked growth hormone. You could put it to good use to gain weight though: 100 lbs is really too much of a model figure for NBE. I never grew on a fat percentage lower than 22%. That's hard for a male to keep up! Way too low fat percentage (say less than 17%) will also stop your periods.

Happy to read that zinc helped you getting acne under control. Zinc is great, and so is vitamin B6. If you scroll up to my post of yesterday, there is a link to a thread on http://www.acne.org that has lots of good alternatives and additions, like borage oil, or azelaic acid from barley grass or rye. If you still use fish oil, that may contribute to acne.

I really like your persistence, reading through your program thread. And I'm convinced you're getting there!
Hi lled34aa,

Thank you for bringing up the zinc. I thought everything was ready for starting a ramp next month, but zinc will be running low from day 1. It will take 11 mg a day, without skipping a day, and the multi's have only 5 mg and 10 mg. So meat, chicken, or seafood every day, and maybe a zinc fortified breakfast cereal:

Next thing to look into is vitamin D: it's probably low too Dodgy

Thanks again, really appreciate you shared this!
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