[Charlie_girl]

Umm, can I have your boobs please?

Also, if I'm drinking chicken feet soup daily, I don't still need to take MSM, right? I think that's what I've read, that MSM is already in it. Please tell me if I'm wrong

Chicken feet soup has gelatin/collagen in it, MSM is something your body uses to build collagen itself.

No harm in having both?

Haha! You're so funny. Thank you! But ya know, you have amazing boobs! I just took a peek at your program page Ahhh! Okay. Hm. I don't see any harm in both. I'll search around the site and see what I find Thank you!

[Charlie_girl]

They've definitely gotten bigger and cuter!!!
Damn nice body, too!!!!

Dang!! Thank you!

In everything being equal. It is GREAT progress. Especially with the hard work and money you have put into it.

I appreciate that! Thanks! Yeah, honestly I haven't been keeping track of how much this has cost since I only buy one thing at a time. Hm.... Maybe I should tally it up! But either way, I feel like its going to be sooooo worth it!

     
“Success is the result of perfection, hard work, learning from failure, loyalty, and persistence.”
-Colin Powell

I don't know about the perfection part, I just take that as not accepting anything from yourself but the best you can do. So many people on here have these qualities and I really admire that!

[surferjoe2007]

Like PM, progesterone cream is very strong. Are you estrogen dominant? If not then I wouldn't take PC without PM, especially not without cycling. Or else it could throw you out of balance and lead to issues. Though tiny amounts could prevent some of the problems.

The fenugreek is fine though a little low. You could use way more if you want. Even many spoonfuls eventually. It should be good for hormonal balance so it shouldn't throw anything out of whack even with a lot. Past ~6,000-9,000 mg (~2-3 tsp) you may want to sprout seeds or get an extract though, to be easier on the stomach. Or fenugreek oil would do the trick too. Unlike many other herbs you can use a ton and it does more; the sky's the limit.

Likewise 10,000 mg maca tends to be faster than 3,000 mg, though even 3,000 mg is decent. I'm not sure if more than 10,000 mg does much though.

Supplemental vitamin C and E are pretty useless. Pills are missing several other related compounds. Very high amounts can actually reduce these other compounds and have a negative effect. A little fresh fruit and a handful of almonds is better.

Chicken feet is better than MSM and ya you don't need both. MSM provides the sulfur to cross-link the collagen proteins, it's what makes them tough and rubbery. Chicken feet contains collagen and so on, so you get the sulfur inside the collagen and more.

The maca, thistle, hops, flax, almonds, chia, alfalfa and brussels sprouts are all nice. I can't think of any missing herbs besides anti-androgens.

Nutritionally I'd get lots and lots of whole grains, some fish oil or seafood and a light tan or a 2000 IU vitamin D supplement, a sprinkling of kelp and 6 tsp rice bran or 2 tsp spirulina or 1 tsp turmeric . Lots and lots of dark green veggies are nice too, especially spinach. Fish oil isn't positively related to NBE AFAIK (the little extra testosterone is a slight negative for NBE even), but it's good for you. And while nice other healthy oils including flax and chia are not a substitute for it.

Besides that you could do squats, pushups and crunches I suppose. I can't think of anything else

Instead of a ton of fenugreek, you could also use a ton of shatavari extract. I might eventually make a huge order and piece it out, but that could be a couple months or so away. It's highly concentrated so a spoonful is like 18 spoonfuls, yet it dissolves easily so it is easy to drink or to put in lotion topically.

[Charlie_girl]

SurferJoe- amazing amount of info! Thank you so much for all of that & for putting in so much time & thought to your reply. Awesome!! I just went through each part with a reply. I thought that might be easier

Like PM, progesterone cream is very strong.  Are you estrogen dominant?  If not then I wouldn't take PC without PM, especially not without cycling.  Or else it could throw you out of balance and lead to issues.  Though tiny amounts could prevent some of the problems.

Here is where I defend Progesterone cream:
I haven't gotten a saliva test yet (I know, bad girl!) But I did a month and a half of NBE at the beginning of the year (just massage, herbs & progesterone cream). I added the PC because I had quite a few symptoms of estrogen dominance and honestly the PC made me feel better and my mood change was like night and day. Was back to being happy & laid back vs easily irritated and moody. And when I stopped it, after a while the symptoms came back, so I assume I was/am ED. I am getting it checked though to make sure- I don't want to jack up my hormones.
I'm also wanting to somewhat mildly mimick pregnancy hormones. MILDLY.  In which case, it isnt cycled. There's no monthly highs and lows with estrogen and progesterone during pregnancy (although the levels of which are MUCH MUCH higher than what I'm doing. And it's not okay to raise your levels that high when you're not preg.)

****Upping your estrogen level without upping your progesterone level increases the risk of several types of cancer*****

Progesterone cream is NO WHERE NEAR as strong as progesterone vaginal suppositories that doctors prescribe for fertility issues & for maintaining high risk pregnancies that are at risk due to low progesterone levels. Also progesterone cream is not that strong compared to synthetic progesterone contained in the Depo-provera shot (medroxyprogesterone) especially, and also the mini pill (progesterone only birth control), and both of which are in your system ALL MONTH LONG, not cycled - no breaks. So, essentially, since I'm using phytoestrogens every single day, I feel it's safe to also use progesterone cream every single day, and it's actually probably safer this way, instead of allowing estrogen to dominate half the month. I also dont see a problem with someone using progesterone cream, then stopping the day before their period is notmally due, then starting back up after it ends, mimicing normal birth control.

Both progesterone and estrogen are at constantly elevating levels throughout pregnancy, until towards the end. Progesterone dominates estrogen until towards the end. Both of which contribute to tissue, glands, milk duct....basically breast development. Each also have many other roles in pregnancy, thats why the levels are so high. (Ladies- do not mimic the amount of these hormone levels. Keep yours MUCH lower than pregnancy levels.)

**Note: bio-identical progesterone cream is much safer to use than synthetic progesterone (progestin). Synthetic progesterone interferes with natural progesterone by blocking the progesterone receptors, as well as having many other negative side effects. Please ladies, do your research

[Charlie_girl]

The fenugreek is fine though a little low.  You could use way more if you want. Or fenugreek oil would do the trick too. Unlike many other herbs you can use a ton and it does more; the sky's the limit.

Ok, great! I've read that the 2,500 mg lactation consultants and Le Leche League recommend for lactating mothers is actually too low to really help with boosting breast milk supply (this explains why it didn't help much when I relactated). Ok, I'll do both internal and external this month so the dose is higher

Also, since it raises prolactin, and so do massages, oats, Shatavari, and beer (my drink of choice when I go out), in this case, couldn't TOO much be bad? I know that high levels of prolactin can cause some serious problems, so I don't want to go nuts on the stuff.

Likewise 10,000 mg maca tends to be faster than 3,000 mg, though even 3,000 mg is decent.  I'm not sure if more than 10,000 mg does much though.

What did you mean by "tends to be faster"?  Faster results? Your dosage is spot on for raw maca. However, I'm taking gelatinized maca, which is very concentrated. The dosages for raw maca & geletanized maca are VERY different because of this. Everyone who's taking maca, please be aware of this. Know which kind you're taking, read the dosage label on your product. SurferJoe- I'm taking whole world botanicals royal maca if you want to check it out. My dosage plan is however, higher than most of the dosage instructions on my bottle. (they have different doses for petite/sensitive, menopausal, immune support, male sexuality, etc.

This is how I'm doing my maca:
Week 1: 2 pills a day (1,000 mg)
Week 2: 3 pills a day (1,500 mg)
Week 3: 4 pills a day (2,000 mg)
Week 4: 5 pills a day (2,500 mg)
Week 5: Break - no maca
Week 6: Start all over

I just started this and only got up to 1,500 mg, then had to take my week break, so really this is the first time I'll be doing this completely. I'm 5'1", about 105 lbs, really tiny & honestly if I get through this whole month at those doses without any unwanted side effects, I'll bump it up a little higher next month.

Supplemental vitamin C and E are pretty useless.  Pills are missing several other related compounds.  Very high amounts can actually reduce these other compounds and have a negative effect.  A little fresh fruit and a handful of almonds is better.

I eat a lot of fresh fruit and almonds every day. The only reason I'm taking the Vit C & E is 1- help boost immune system & absorption of vitamins. I'm only taking 400 I.U. of E and 500mg of Vit C (on top of what my multivitamin has). OH! Also it's Vit C with bioflavonoids (if anyone was curious). But I didn't know that about supplemental Vit C & E. Hmm....good to know! And also taking them because 2- I'm getting a series of facial treatments (SkinPen), and the dr office told me to supplement with these as well a Vit A (which I've left that one out so far). 

Chicken feet soup it is! Just hope I can actually do it!!

I can't think of any missing herbs besides anti-androgens.

I'm on a weight lifting/ weight gaining program with my trainer. High weigh, low reps, high calorie,  the right foods & protein, fats, organic milk, air squats on non lift days, compound excersizes, constant changing of exersizes, mostly targeting my butt & lower body, but also working on the upper, ya know- the whole 9. I've been avoiding anti-androgens because of this. Except for of course the progesterone cream, which is anti-androgenic.

Nutritionally I'd get lots and lots of whole grains, some fish oil or seafood and a light tan or a 2000 IU vitamin D supplement, a sprinkling of kelp and 6 tsp rice bran or 2 tsp spirulina or 1 tsp turmeric .  Lots and lots of dark green veggies are nice too, especially spinach. 

Good call on the Vit D! I need to pick some up. (I need to pick up a tan too! Lol) I eat everything you just mentioned I do need to up my whole grains a lot though, and get more fish oil!  And Orange Roughy Mmmm. I've been eating so much chicken, eggs, turkey & grass fed steak, I haven't really eaten much fish. Turmeric I just sprinkle on salads because why not and I can't taste it really. But my salads are just a huge bowl of a buffet of healthy foods thrown in it. Lol. 

Instead of a ton of fenugreek, you could also use a ton of shatavari extract.  I might eventually make a huge order and piece it out, but that could be a couple months or so away.  

I did shatavari earlier this year. I liked it. Only took 1 bottle though & didn't order more yet. Be careful with which brand you buy! A lot of Ayurvedic herbs, including Shatavari, contain heavy metals. Whatever company you order it from, make sure they prevent this from happeneing. I didn't know this until my bottle was almost empty :O But since it seems to basically do the same thing that maca + fenugreek do (In terms of being an adaptogen and raising prolactin), I don't know if I should take it again in addition these 2 things. I'll ask my naturopath about it.


I also massage and noogle.
Thank you so much for your help & advice! Very much appreciated

[surferjoe2007]

If you are estrogen dominate then PC alone is fine for now. Eventually after you get balanced out you may want to stop or add PM (which would be bad until then). A small amount of PC is fine all month but more all month rather than half the month could mess with your cycle. Just as depo leads to no cycle.

For gelatinized maca you use 4,000 mg instead of. 10,000 mg. This is for faster results yeah.

That is a ton of vite E and does more harm than good as it interferes with the natural stuff. I would stop the extra C and E and continue with a little fruit and almonds.

You can combine fenugreek with shatavari same as taking more fenugreek. It is pretty much more of the same. And the more the better with these. Unlike many other options which taper off. They raise everything not only prolactin so you should get more balanced if anything.

Everything else sounds great.

You could also try my stuff and ask for double part B + PC instead of part A + part B + PC. That way you get very little PM. It has quite a lot of shatavari extract and some misc things. There is some saw palmetto extract but not a huge amount. Most other extract products use a ~90% fatty acid extract. And studies suggest SP is more for possibly inhibiting DHT ("bad" testosterone) rather than testosterone in general.

[Charlie_girl]

SurferJoe- I really do appreciate all of the work & thought you've put into my program and responses. And I appreciate you helping me out. However, I do not agree with most of what you're saying, and I think some of it is downright dangerous for some women who might want to follow your advice given here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and you seem to have done quite a bit of research, but probably just to calculate what needs to be included in the product you sell. I do not want bad or dangerous advice on my program thread. Let me explain...


1- First, just to cover this, I'm taking additional Vit E and Vit C with bioflavinoids and in those amounts, under doctors orders because of my Skin Pen treatments. So I will follow directions before and after each treatment with about a 2 week break in between. Once the treatments are complete, I will stop. And yes, they know of my healthy diet containing both of those naturally. 

** It is not advisable to recommend that ANYONE steer away from what a doctor told them to do, regarding ANYTHING. Ever. Even if you were a doctor (which you're not), altering doctors orders over the Internet without seeing someone and knowing their medical past is a HUGE no-no in the medical field. And it's a huge, EXAGGERATED no-no for someone who isn't an MD. You should know better. Please do not do this, because someone might actually take your advice and end up having an issue, or even serious issues.


2- There is no sense in taking multiple herbs that do the same thing (ie balance your hormones). LESS IS MORE. Overloading your liver is never a good thing & can lead to serious problems. You NEVER want to take too many herbs, or too much of one herb, at the same time. One powerful hormone balancing herb is enough. Taking an additional herb alongside this, that has other powerful qualities but also MILDLY balnces you is okay. And if you can get some of your herbs as an extract or oil in order to deliver it to your system transdermally, in order to avoid liver processing altogether, even better.


3- Please do not tell ANYONE that "the sky is the limit" with prolactin-raising herbs. This is categorically untrue and it's very dangerous to think that way, and to take these herb with that mindset. You are correct that I can take more than what I'm currently taking & that it WILL be more beneficial for me. However, there ARE HUGE risks you're playing with if you elevate your prolactin levels too much (prolactin is released by the pituitary gland, therefore high levels of prolactin effect the pituitary & problems with the pituitary gland messes up all the other glands in your endocrine system, high prolactin can result in low progesterone, prolactin levels that are too high can also cause: increased growth of hair on face or body, organ damage, infertility, irregular periods or missed periods, unexpected breast milk discharge, dysfunction of other hormones produced by the pituitary (which could result in hypothyroidism & adrenal insufficiency), can reduce production of estrogen & testosterone resulting in decreased bone density leading to osteoporosis and also inhibiting NBE success, if you already unknowingly have a small benign tumor on your pituitary, high levels of prolactin will be nothing but trouble for you (that's a whole other world of issues & health problems I won't get into here), loss of sexual desire, muscle weakness, erectile dysfunction (obviously for the men who raise prolactin too much), if you have or get cancer- you're at more of a risk since high prolactin levels forces the cancer to head to the lymph nodes, and messing up your pituitary can lead to so many other health issues. Do NOT promote "sky high" limits- that is dangerous and horrible advice.

4- Raising my progesterone alongside my phytoestrogens daily is not a bad thing, it's much healthier and safer in regards to cancer risk. Especially since I seem to be ED. You are right, you DO need breaks from progesterone cream, not monthly, but every 2-3 months you should break while using it if you're using it the way that I am. Cycling monthly is GREAT though, and I'm not against that- so dont get me wrong. If you're hormones are balanced and there's no personal need to use it all month, then cycle. I agree with people that cycle. I personally am not cycling monthly.

BIO-IDENTICAL PROGESTERONE CREAM PROTECTS YOU FROM CANCER CAUSED BY ESTROGEN. If you are raising your estrogen levels, please think about adding in bio-identical progesterone cream to your program. Yes, cycle it. I'm not going to for a couple of months. I may at that time begin cycling. Stay away from synthetic progesterone if you can.

And also as I've stated, the amount of progesterone in progesterone cream is NO WHERE NEAR the levels you get from the Depo. Please do not go around touting the danger of progesterone while simultaneously telling people to up their estrogen, especially encouraging something as strong as PM while advising "no progesterone". If they listen to that advice, they raise their risk of cancer as well as other health issues.

*Also a little end note. The Depo shot is SUPPOSED to stop you from having a cycle. That's what it does. It tricks your body into thinking that it's already pregnant so you don't ovulate (release an egg). Stopping your cycle is NOT a side effect, it's the PURPOSE.


I'm sorry SurferJoe, I don't agree with you and since I previously thought that you had more knowledge on these subjects than I do, I asked for your advice. And you do seem to have more knowledge on certain things, just not what I addressed in this post. I DO appreciate your insigt on the other topics. The second you plugged your product on my program page though, your opinions lost credibility to me, especially considering your product is already clearly plugged in your signature. No need to push it on someone's thread. I commend you for doing research and creating your own product and I do hope it's successful for you. You seem to have good ingredients and a good system at a good price. I just don't think your opinions on certain things are accurate and some things that you promote are dangerous. I won't have that on my program page. Healthier, stable, continuous growth is ALWAYS better than fast, dangerous growth.

[surferjoe2007]

Didn't see that the doctor prescribed the vitamins. Alright if he says so. Did he say the amount too?

Studies showed no toxicity in fenugreek and shatavari at any amount, even feeding fenugreek as a food. I have used 80,000 mg myself (via soaking seeds or extract equivalents). Diabetic studies and traditional use use 20,000-25,000 mg. It is an adaptogen kind of like maca, rather than going after prolactin specifically. If it raised my prolactin then I'd be impotent by now with no libido, shrunken testicles, no testosterone, no ability to build muscle, moobs, and no ability to get an erection. It has been quite the opposite for me. In nursing mothers who already have prolactin then it raises prolactin. It raises what you have and tends to be balancing not imbalancing. Other herbs can be different and sometimes harmful with too much ya. I also don't suggest starting with so much, there is a gradual build up.

Ya, lots of PC all month is fine if stopping or partly getting in the way of your cycle is what you want to do. Ya limiting it is totally fine regardless.

I think there is some miscommunication/misunderstanding.

[Charlie_girl]

Yes the dr said that amount too.

Oh! Okay, so since YOU haven't experienced any bad side effects (yet) from those really high levels of fenugreek, then it MUST be safe for everyone? NO. If you take it at the "sky high" or "unlimited" doses you recommend, you're playing with fire. And YES, fenugreek DOES increase prolactin levels. Too much fenugreek (and fennel seeds and red clover) can cause hyperprolactinemia (abnormally high levels of prolactin). http://www.reproductivefacts.org/FACTSHE...in_Excess/

I've breastfed and relactated twice (brought my milk back after drying up) and I know more about all of the aspects of the hormones & herbs involved than my first 3 lactation consultants did, including the effects of fenugreek + prolactin + breastfeeding. However, no. You don't already need ELEVATED prolactin levels in order for fenugreek (or any phytoprolactin) to raise your prolactin level. That's outrageous. But, yes, prolactin levels are high during pregnancy & breastfeeding, especially right after birth when the estrogen & progesterone levels plummet and the prolactin level spikes (this combo is what tells your body to secrete the milk).

You just said it yourself, "it raises what you have". And your statement right before that, " In nursing mothers who already have prolactin then it raises prolactin". We ALL have prolactin. You don't need to be pregnant to HAVE prolactin. So, since prolactin is already a hormone that you DO have, yes, it will raise it.


The normal values for prolactin are:

Males: 2 - 18 ng/mL
Nonpregnant females: 2 - 29 ng/mL
Pregnant women: 10 - 209 ng/mL

BUT, you ARE right in that it has balancing effects. I'm not saying that taking too much fenugreek alone for a short amount of time will cause all those health problems. I'm saying that too high of prolactin levels for too long CAN and does cause those. And too high amounts of fenugreek for too long does lead to dangerously high levels of prolactin. So why risk it?

Shatavari does also increase prolactin, And is also a hormone balancer. I'm not saying that taking high doses of these specific herbs alone or together will send your prolactin levels sky high WITHOUT raising other hormone levels. Again, I'm saying 1- too many herbs taken at the same time that, for the most part, have the same effect, is pointless and too much of, or too many herbs over floods your liver (in general- not just taking these two herbs). Taking these two herbs together is fine. I'm not sure what HIGHER doses are safe and which are way too much taken together over the long term. But regardless, someone doesn't need to take sky high levels of anything, especially 3-5 different things that all elevate the same hormone more than the other hormones.

Just sayin

[Pirate]

Looks like excellent progress to me.
Congratulations!
Yarr!