29-01-2016, 23:57
Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 16 2007 at 11:40 PM Vienay (Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
The arguements that seem to be forming on here seem to be so unneccessary! The debates concerning whether or not one can grow depending on their diets...To eat meat or not etc.
I don't understand why people are getting upset. We are all here to help each other out, including Wahaika. I have read many of his posts and I know he is interested in the science of this BE stuff. He has done extensive research and is an intelligent man. I have not found any of his posts to be offensive.
They're all in good intentions.
I can understand people wanting to debate topics.
I can understand we are all different.
What I don't understand is the anger that comes in someone using facts to try and understand the outcome. Like Blessed stated in one post, I like caffeine, but I am certainly not going to get all fired up if someone does a survey on how many have used it and had growth and how many have not. In fact, I think it would be interesting.
I totally agree, we all have the arfreedom of speech here. If we want to be able to express our opinions then we should let others express their opinions also. Each one of us has the same right/priveledge to be on this forum as the next, provided we do not become abusive in our posts.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:27 AM
I'm sorry but Waihika was definitly being disrespectful toward vegetarians who are trying to grow. He did not handle it the right way--- If he did, we wouldn't have been upset, and the fact that so many of us didn't like the way he handled it says something. I don't think we should be the ones to be blamed. He clearly was anti-vegetarianism and showed it.
Alcest
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Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:28 AM
I also think people should stop making new threads about it...
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:31 AM
I'm sorry I have one more thing to say---I did not read what you said about caffeine until now. And now I'm pissed that you would be so stupid as to compare drinking caffeine to being a vegan and trying to do some good in the world---- You think I'm a vegan for the hell of it? Just for kicks?! No!
You really don't get it, nor do you know anything about veganism or what we're trying to accomplish. That's your problem right there. Ignorance. The both of you. My choice in being a vegan is not nearly as light or shallow as choosing to drink caffeine or not!
Please stop being so disrespectful. If you know nothing of what you speak, don't speak of it.
Vienay
(Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:36 AM
Now you are just being hateful
Tessica
(Login Tessica)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:45 AM
There are many reasons why a person chooses to become a vegetarian/vegan. A lot of times it is for moral reasons, not strictly health reasons. It is an entire lifestyle change. Moreover, a vegetarian/vegan sets him or herself up for problems, mostly stemming from the ignorance of others. There is a real stigma attached with vegetarianism, and it is ignorant and insulting to compare it with something trivial like drinking caffeine. That is why people have been so passionate in the discussion in the other thread.
Now that we understand this, can we just drop it? Feelings were hurt, but let's move on. If someone said something to upset you, just try to ignore it (difficult though it may be).
Vienay
(Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:55 AM
Yes, now I can see why people are afraid to post on this forum.
I did not say anything about vegans or vegetarians, for all you know I am one myself. Wahaika was only conducting a survey for crying out loud.
But now I can see that it is the bullies that monopolize this forum.
I was wrong in thinking that people could be reasonable on here and look at BE as a scientific process. Why try taking a supplement in the first place if you think it is anything else? Why come on this forum at all if not to EXCHANGE IDEAS WITH OTHER PEOPLE?
Tiger Lily had posted her results concerning food. Food definately has a effect on BE. I don't think it's reasonable to become hysterical about doing a survery on it.
Kate
(Login Teresina)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 1:28 AM
Alcest, I think you have serious issues. First you complain about your right to speak your mind and have an opinion, then you tell people to stop starting threads and, in another thread, to go away because they don't agree with you. Does this sound consistant to you? Fair? Logical? It's ridiculous and foolish.
If you want your choices to be respected, maybe you should practice what you preach. Choosing to not consume caffeine is not shallow, it's a health issue for some people, and even if it weren't, what's it to you? Why are you so quick to diss things that don't matter to YOU and demand people respect your choices? That is one-sided garbage. Why place value judgments on someone's dietary choices at all? It's pointless and funny, given your rants.
And before you tell me that I don't 'get' what you're trying to do, that I hate vegans, I have been a vegan or vegetarian for most of my life, since birth. I hate animal products. They do not benefit me at all, personally, but that's just it -- it's personal. I don't give a damn what you or anyone else eats. To each their own. But once you start demanding respect and being obnoxious and hypocritical, it defeats the entire purpose of the board. Maybe you should stop and think that perhaps people don't have an issue with your lifestyle -- maybe they have an issue with your condescending attitude.
This board is absolutely useless in terms of ever finding out any information at this point, because all it boils down to is ego and rudeness and you carrying on about how 'educated' you are without even knowing anyone else's background. Here's a thought: you're not the only person to have ever taken a class in something. I have no patience for people that think they can tell others to eff off and then carry about on lack of respect. It's plain stupid. You can't have it both ways.
I'm done here. Between your posts and the sheer stupidity of people complaining about big breasts, calling those with big breasts dumb, all all while working towards them, I think this board has run its course.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 2:31 AM
I agree with you Kate. That is why so many state their opinions under anonymous. They are afraid of getting bashed. Not just from Alcest, but others who react rather strongly, calling people stupid and putting them down. With all the pictures showing good results this initially seemed like a good forum to obtain information. I myself thought about doing surveys because there are quite a lot of people on this forum, but who wants to get beaten up for doing that?
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 3:09 AM
I have searched and searched and cannot find a post where Wahaika is putting down vegetarians or vegans. I've only read that he has not come across one who has had results with NBE. Is there any proof to back up these claims of him being so terrible? He has really helped a lot of people and it is unfair to attack him
snowdrops
(Login snowdropsfalling)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:27 AM
Waihaka seems alot more intelligent and respectful then alcest. He's very informative and I have seen him on another board as well. I would trust waihakas views over alcests anyday. Waihaka doesn't scream and curse at those who are vegetarian while alcest seems to disrespect and put down anyone who eats meat and she doesn't back up her opinions with facts either. Not to mention all vegetarians don't due it solely because they don't like to eat meat. I know someone who likes the smell of meat but doesn't due to religion but otherwise would but she grew up that way. We don't need to have hissy fits here over who is vegetarian and who isn't. It seems like in any post alcest posts in she is extremely hostile and throws tantrums like a child with those who oppose her view. If she didn't curse and act so hateful I would have no problems with her views as long as she did so respectfully towards others saying something such as I don't believe your theory is correct "fill in blank here" instead of the *^***&^D OFF!! *rant rant*
Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure I've read all of Wahaika's recent posts, althoguh probably I have most of them. I did not find any of them offensive. However everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they please. I may not agree, but well it's one's own choice and problem.
People need to realize that freedom of speech goes in both directions. If someone has the right to say something, another person has equal right to agree, disagree or be offended and express it. There is another issue tightly rlated to freedom of speech and that it freedom to one's own oppinion. No one has the right to force their oppinions on others, so if someone finds sth offensive, it's their every right.
anonymous poster
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 2:45 PM
There is a big difference between using ones freedom of speech to air an opinion or disagreement, and to cuss people out and tell them to f off.
We have already lost one good source of information due to bullying here lately. You immature little girls should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't care what you eat, but you should add good manner pills to your routine.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 3:41 PM
You all seem to have assumed all the wrong things about me. I do not "hate" meat eaters--- most of the people I know eat meat. I also don't think there is anything wrong with eating it. What I have a problem with is the way we cultivate it, with ignorance, and those who degrade veganism into simply "not eating meat for the hell of it" which is what I've been sensing A LOT on this board lately.
And wtf---bullies? Grow up. I don't even post here all that often. I'm just sick of being judged for being a vegan and others comparing it to things like drinking coffee. And I'm incredibly passionate about this, as I am about all things I believe in and when the things I love and hold value to are threatened I react accordingly. My heart is always on my sleeve and it's very hard for me to not get emotional about certain things but I would hardly accuse some one of having "issues" because of this.
The things that you guys have just said to me have been far, far worse and more hurtful than anything I've said thus far.
Can you all deny that vegan/vegetarianism was starting to be looked down upon here and some were saying that it's "impossible" for vegans to grow breasts. It's rubbish let alone incredibly disheartening to us, and i'll say what I said before--- it's like being a vegan was guilty before proven innocent,not innocent before proven guilty.
I just want us all to assume being a vegan is innocent and good for NBE until we have enough scientific data to back that up before screaming GUILTY! GUILTY! to it in regards of BE. And right now, we do not nearly have enough, as the majority of us eat meat/dairy and the vegans tend to be newbies. And we tend to be thinner, etc etc.
Claire
(Login clairefarky)
Alcest
March 17 2007, 4:06 PM
From what I can gather it is not what you say rather "how you say it" which is offensive. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but give them in a manner which does not come across so agressively. Take care.
Buffeee
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 4:08 PM
I think the comparison of being a coffee drinker or a vegetarian is valid in regards to whether or not it affects a natural breast enlargement program. That's all. Yes, it is apples and oranges when you take it out of this context and look at it in a larger one. But that's not what was being considered. Whether or not it should is another story all together.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 4:40 PM
Claire: I see what you're saying. I do swear an awful lot, I'm sorry for that. And I do realize this board has a diversity of women of different ages and backgrounds and I probably shouldn't be so ...vulgar. All of my friends are pretty much men. (Metalheads to be precise) and I am incredibly used to having to scream and yell and swear in order to make myself heard and to get my point across and I see now that I don't have to do that here. Women are very different from men I should know that =P. I'm sorry. Though I won't take back any of the things I've said, I realize now that the way I said some of those things were a little too confrontational for most women, and for this kind of place.
snowdrops
(Login snowdropsfalling)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 4:46 PM
The problem is your taking posts out of context and WAY too seriously. I could give a crap whether you are vegetarian or not. And they have organic and free range meat as well. Is that what you mean by cultivation? Calling people who eat meat ignorant isn't too nice either. Not everyone can afford a 20 dollar cut of meat so I'll continue eating whatever type of meat I please without people who are vegans look down upon people eating meat which is exactly what you are being really hypocritical about. Everyone has the right of freedom of speech but when you do so childishly with screams and curses no one is going to take you seriously. None of the people here eating meat were forcing you to eat meat and yelling at you for not eating it, but they were maturely stating their opinions on it.
Sure it's possible, but all he was trying to say was it is harder. Vegans can take soy protein drinks,etc. to supplement where meat is missing. I don't see anywhere where he even directly attacked vegetarians, but you just took it the wrong way and see everything as an attack towards you. Why don't we let this issue between vegans and people who eat meat drop. It's too ridiculous when posts like these pop up from people offended thinking everyone has a thing against vegans.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 5:17 PM
I wasn't calling people who eat meat ignorant. Just those who don't understand why it's wrong the way we raise our animals and berate the earth.
Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 5:49 PM
Would there be any interest in a proper double blind study?
I could write it up and put it on here for all of you to review. I am 90% sure that I could get backing from an herb company to sponsor it (publically or privately).
We would need a statistically significant number of participants times two. In other words, if the study group is 10 women, then the control group is 10 women. I was thinking that meat/non meat would be good. But it could be done by age or children (vs. none) or even by individual herbs vs. premix. Another possibility is BO vs. herbs or PM vs. herbs. There are a lot of possibilities depending on what you are interested in. I think the meat vs. non meat issue would be a good one. Participants would be assigned anonymous user accounts to protect anonymity and to make it possible to be double blind. The drawback for me is that I would have to post zero posts for the duration in order to avoid contamination.
Any thoughts?
Wahaika
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 5:58 PM
Also, This is not to beat anyone over the head with. It is the first logical step in fact finding once there is an hypothesis. True?
Tessie
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:21 PM
I think that is a great idea Wahaika!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:34 PM
Um, sounds good, I would participate. But... what's the difference? I mean, this experiment is already being carried out, only not officially.
Btw...
Wahaika, there's a few things I've been wanting to ask you for a while. I hear you are into NBE to help your wife on her growing quest, I found this quite amazing and inetresting. Did you by chance take interest in NBE also from professional reasons? And is your wife parhaps one of the women who have more trouble growing? Thanks!
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:50 PM
eating lots of meat won't make you grow boobs nor will eating only veggies.The key is a good balanced diet combined with the herbs and massages,everything in moderation. don't forget to each his/her own!!! Happy Growing
Vienay
(Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 8:43 PM
I would be interested in your study Wahaika. I am taking the PM so that would of course effect what group I would be in, but you could count on me to participate. If you want to rally the ladies it would be a good idea to post a thread inviting them to do the study because not everyone reads all these threads. A lot of ladies avoid the argumentative threads because they don't want to get caught up in it.
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 8:51 PM
I am in. But you'll have to make clear distinctions on diet:
Meat eater = beef, pork, chicken, fish, or any other animal flesh
Vegetarian = no animal flesh but may eat eggs and/or dairy products
Vegan = no animal products whatsoever
There seems to be some ambiguity on this board as to what constitutes a meat eater and a vegetarian; ie. 'I'm a vegetarian who eats fish.' That's not a vegetarian!
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 8:54 PM
^ To the person above: except it's not necessary to eat meat to have a good, balanced diet. This has been scientifically proven over and over again for the past 20 years. If you would like some sources I will get you some... And we don't eat "just veggies", I'm not sure what you meant by that but I just want to clarify. =/
And yes I agree wholeheartedly that a balanced diet is necessary for NBE! as is adequate protein (and yes, it's fairly easy to get adequate protein on a vegan/vegetarian diet).
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 9:04 PM
My post above was for the anonymous poster, not Corrie. I just realized it looks like I'm talking to her.
sophie9
(Login sophie9)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 18 2007, 12:00 AM
wahaika - unlike another poster said, i think there are simply degrees of how much meat a woman eats in a day, a week, a month, even more than several months. there are people who basically eat vegetarian foods but do eat fish or other meat on occassion and do not consider themselves to be vegetarian. i am one of them. my favorite foods just happen to be vegetarian dishes, but i eat meat more than the vegetarian who decides to eat the thanksgiving day turkey.
so perhaps instead of dividing people into groups of meat eaters, you could look at dividing people into groups of how much meat is consumed in a week or a month. it wouldn't be too difficult to do. women could even keep anonymous programs or posts perhaps where they keep a sort of food diary, which would help even more with determining what types of animal protein we are consuming. that would include eggs and dairy products. then you would actually know what each person in the study is eating. if you created a post asking us to estimate how much animal protein, eggs, and dairy we consume in a week, i think that would account for the variance of animal protein people consume. instead of coming to a conclusion that may be incorrect (for example, you may conclude that meateaters grow more while not considering other sources of animal protein, or you may conclude that eating meat doesn't significantly affect growth while there are some people who do consume a lot of dairy or fish)then i think your study could yield some interesting conclusions. if you threw someone like myself into the meateater group of people who eat red meat three times a week, whereas i eat no red meat and usually only eat fish) then you could use me to substantiate that meateaters grow more, since i have grown over an inch in a month - and basically on a vegetarian diet using mostly soy and and fish as protein sources.
so i think there is a great variance in diet, and while you cannot account for all, perhaps you could find more people to participate if you created other subgroups to account for this variance. there is also the problem of most of us taking different herbs at different doses, as well as the fact that some who participate may be presently taking something that does not work for them, but may later find something that does. and that could sway findings in either direction. if we were all on the same herbal course, that wouldn't work either because that obviously isn't going to work for anyone either. so like most experiments of this sort, it will of course have limitations that will affect findings. but we could at least get an interesting representation of how animal protein in a diet affects growth. i don't think people are simply meat eaters or vegetarians, and i think there is a great variance, and while it is impossble to get accurate results while accounting for individuals with diets unique to them, creating more than just a control group and one experimental group would offer a more accurate conclusion. it is also doubly complicated since there are vegetarians and there are vegans - who consume no dairy or eggs. not eating meat but consuming dairy and eggs could have an effect on growth as well. so...ugh...there are so many variables to consider! i'm sure there is a way to consolidate these variables in a way that could offer helpful conclusions, but considering them all would be impossible. that is why i suggested perhaps having those who participate create a sort of food journal that could perhaps help with this problem. at least the information would be available to you. well...i would be interested in participating if the amount of animal products consumed per week or per month were taken into consideration. per month would be easy for those who consume meat regulary, and per month would be easy for someone like myself who generally knows how much meat i consume in a month. wow...this is long! i also think after this whole unfortunate "debacle" more vegetarians, vegans, and people who mostly eat vegetarian, would be more interested in participating if it wasn't just a vegetarian versus "meat and potato" eaters study, but rather took into consideration to a degree some variance of animal protein consumed. just my $0.02.
violet
(Login _violet_)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 18 2007, 1:01 AM
::yawn::
I'm not even a vegetarian and this subject is annoying the hell out of me... There's a fine line between expressing an opinion that may or may not be useful to someone, and state that vegetarians will not grow on NBE. I can't picture how can that be useful to anyone, if anything, it's just discouraging for vegetarians on here.
In regards to his supposed intelligence well, human curiosity and research do wonders! Maybe a few on here should give it a try!!
Frankly his theory merely based on the possibility of meat increasing estrogen levels is... well, fairly pointless. Doesn't make any sense in the slightest, in fact, he wasn't even able to explain it himself.
The only thing he did was to point out at arachidonic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid that can be found in meats, eggs etc., but can also be produced by humans via linoleic acid (another omega 6). AA is important in the making of hormones such as testosterone. Testosterone can be converted into estrogen by enzyme aromatase.
I think anyone on this forum knows how to increase estrogen levels and if it all had to do with estrogen we would all have reached our goals. So far, the success rate among meat eaters is still low, there aren't enough vegetarians to establish a meaningful comparison.
Given all this, if someone can explain me the point behind his remark regarding vegetarians, and his enthusiasm regarding *RED meat, please do so.
*edited to add that small detail.
Edit2: Hahah that "study" would be interesting, the number of women alone (10) is very little to prove anything to begin with. And, to add some credibility to it try and find 20 (10 meat eaters, 10 vegetarians) women with at least similar BMIs. Weight gain must also have to be taken into account.
edit 3: "I think the meat vs. non meat issue would be a good one." -> Really, why? As far as I know the large majority on here are meat eaters and as far as I know, many are having little to no results.
March 16 2007 at 11:40 PM Vienay (Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
The arguements that seem to be forming on here seem to be so unneccessary! The debates concerning whether or not one can grow depending on their diets...To eat meat or not etc.
I don't understand why people are getting upset. We are all here to help each other out, including Wahaika. I have read many of his posts and I know he is interested in the science of this BE stuff. He has done extensive research and is an intelligent man. I have not found any of his posts to be offensive.
They're all in good intentions.
I can understand people wanting to debate topics.
I can understand we are all different.
What I don't understand is the anger that comes in someone using facts to try and understand the outcome. Like Blessed stated in one post, I like caffeine, but I am certainly not going to get all fired up if someone does a survey on how many have used it and had growth and how many have not. In fact, I think it would be interesting.
I totally agree, we all have the arfreedom of speech here. If we want to be able to express our opinions then we should let others express their opinions also. Each one of us has the same right/priveledge to be on this forum as the next, provided we do not become abusive in our posts.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:27 AM
I'm sorry but Waihika was definitly being disrespectful toward vegetarians who are trying to grow. He did not handle it the right way--- If he did, we wouldn't have been upset, and the fact that so many of us didn't like the way he handled it says something. I don't think we should be the ones to be blamed. He clearly was anti-vegetarianism and showed it.
Alcest
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Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:28 AM
I also think people should stop making new threads about it...
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:31 AM
I'm sorry I have one more thing to say---I did not read what you said about caffeine until now. And now I'm pissed that you would be so stupid as to compare drinking caffeine to being a vegan and trying to do some good in the world---- You think I'm a vegan for the hell of it? Just for kicks?! No!
You really don't get it, nor do you know anything about veganism or what we're trying to accomplish. That's your problem right there. Ignorance. The both of you. My choice in being a vegan is not nearly as light or shallow as choosing to drink caffeine or not!
Please stop being so disrespectful. If you know nothing of what you speak, don't speak of it.
Vienay
(Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:36 AM
Now you are just being hateful
Tessica
(Login Tessica)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:45 AM
There are many reasons why a person chooses to become a vegetarian/vegan. A lot of times it is for moral reasons, not strictly health reasons. It is an entire lifestyle change. Moreover, a vegetarian/vegan sets him or herself up for problems, mostly stemming from the ignorance of others. There is a real stigma attached with vegetarianism, and it is ignorant and insulting to compare it with something trivial like drinking caffeine. That is why people have been so passionate in the discussion in the other thread.
Now that we understand this, can we just drop it? Feelings were hurt, but let's move on. If someone said something to upset you, just try to ignore it (difficult though it may be).
Vienay
(Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 12:55 AM
Yes, now I can see why people are afraid to post on this forum.
I did not say anything about vegans or vegetarians, for all you know I am one myself. Wahaika was only conducting a survey for crying out loud.
But now I can see that it is the bullies that monopolize this forum.
I was wrong in thinking that people could be reasonable on here and look at BE as a scientific process. Why try taking a supplement in the first place if you think it is anything else? Why come on this forum at all if not to EXCHANGE IDEAS WITH OTHER PEOPLE?
Tiger Lily had posted her results concerning food. Food definately has a effect on BE. I don't think it's reasonable to become hysterical about doing a survery on it.
Kate
(Login Teresina)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 1:28 AM
Alcest, I think you have serious issues. First you complain about your right to speak your mind and have an opinion, then you tell people to stop starting threads and, in another thread, to go away because they don't agree with you. Does this sound consistant to you? Fair? Logical? It's ridiculous and foolish.
If you want your choices to be respected, maybe you should practice what you preach. Choosing to not consume caffeine is not shallow, it's a health issue for some people, and even if it weren't, what's it to you? Why are you so quick to diss things that don't matter to YOU and demand people respect your choices? That is one-sided garbage. Why place value judgments on someone's dietary choices at all? It's pointless and funny, given your rants.
And before you tell me that I don't 'get' what you're trying to do, that I hate vegans, I have been a vegan or vegetarian for most of my life, since birth. I hate animal products. They do not benefit me at all, personally, but that's just it -- it's personal. I don't give a damn what you or anyone else eats. To each their own. But once you start demanding respect and being obnoxious and hypocritical, it defeats the entire purpose of the board. Maybe you should stop and think that perhaps people don't have an issue with your lifestyle -- maybe they have an issue with your condescending attitude.
This board is absolutely useless in terms of ever finding out any information at this point, because all it boils down to is ego and rudeness and you carrying on about how 'educated' you are without even knowing anyone else's background. Here's a thought: you're not the only person to have ever taken a class in something. I have no patience for people that think they can tell others to eff off and then carry about on lack of respect. It's plain stupid. You can't have it both ways.
I'm done here. Between your posts and the sheer stupidity of people complaining about big breasts, calling those with big breasts dumb, all all while working towards them, I think this board has run its course.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 2:31 AM
I agree with you Kate. That is why so many state their opinions under anonymous. They are afraid of getting bashed. Not just from Alcest, but others who react rather strongly, calling people stupid and putting them down. With all the pictures showing good results this initially seemed like a good forum to obtain information. I myself thought about doing surveys because there are quite a lot of people on this forum, but who wants to get beaten up for doing that?
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 3:09 AM
I have searched and searched and cannot find a post where Wahaika is putting down vegetarians or vegans. I've only read that he has not come across one who has had results with NBE. Is there any proof to back up these claims of him being so terrible? He has really helped a lot of people and it is unfair to attack him
snowdrops
(Login snowdropsfalling)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:27 AM
Waihaka seems alot more intelligent and respectful then alcest. He's very informative and I have seen him on another board as well. I would trust waihakas views over alcests anyday. Waihaka doesn't scream and curse at those who are vegetarian while alcest seems to disrespect and put down anyone who eats meat and she doesn't back up her opinions with facts either. Not to mention all vegetarians don't due it solely because they don't like to eat meat. I know someone who likes the smell of meat but doesn't due to religion but otherwise would but she grew up that way. We don't need to have hissy fits here over who is vegetarian and who isn't. It seems like in any post alcest posts in she is extremely hostile and throws tantrums like a child with those who oppose her view. If she didn't curse and act so hateful I would have no problems with her views as long as she did so respectfully towards others saying something such as I don't believe your theory is correct "fill in blank here" instead of the *^***&^D OFF!! *rant rant*
Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 11:04 AM
I'm not sure I've read all of Wahaika's recent posts, althoguh probably I have most of them. I did not find any of them offensive. However everyone has the right to be offended by whatever they please. I may not agree, but well it's one's own choice and problem.
People need to realize that freedom of speech goes in both directions. If someone has the right to say something, another person has equal right to agree, disagree or be offended and express it. There is another issue tightly rlated to freedom of speech and that it freedom to one's own oppinion. No one has the right to force their oppinions on others, so if someone finds sth offensive, it's their every right.
anonymous poster
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 2:45 PM
There is a big difference between using ones freedom of speech to air an opinion or disagreement, and to cuss people out and tell them to f off.
We have already lost one good source of information due to bullying here lately. You immature little girls should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't care what you eat, but you should add good manner pills to your routine.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 3:41 PM
You all seem to have assumed all the wrong things about me. I do not "hate" meat eaters--- most of the people I know eat meat. I also don't think there is anything wrong with eating it. What I have a problem with is the way we cultivate it, with ignorance, and those who degrade veganism into simply "not eating meat for the hell of it" which is what I've been sensing A LOT on this board lately.
And wtf---bullies? Grow up. I don't even post here all that often. I'm just sick of being judged for being a vegan and others comparing it to things like drinking coffee. And I'm incredibly passionate about this, as I am about all things I believe in and when the things I love and hold value to are threatened I react accordingly. My heart is always on my sleeve and it's very hard for me to not get emotional about certain things but I would hardly accuse some one of having "issues" because of this.
The things that you guys have just said to me have been far, far worse and more hurtful than anything I've said thus far.
Can you all deny that vegan/vegetarianism was starting to be looked down upon here and some were saying that it's "impossible" for vegans to grow breasts. It's rubbish let alone incredibly disheartening to us, and i'll say what I said before--- it's like being a vegan was guilty before proven innocent,not innocent before proven guilty.
I just want us all to assume being a vegan is innocent and good for NBE until we have enough scientific data to back that up before screaming GUILTY! GUILTY! to it in regards of BE. And right now, we do not nearly have enough, as the majority of us eat meat/dairy and the vegans tend to be newbies. And we tend to be thinner, etc etc.
Claire
(Login clairefarky)
Alcest
March 17 2007, 4:06 PM
From what I can gather it is not what you say rather "how you say it" which is offensive. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but give them in a manner which does not come across so agressively. Take care.
Buffeee
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 4:08 PM
I think the comparison of being a coffee drinker or a vegetarian is valid in regards to whether or not it affects a natural breast enlargement program. That's all. Yes, it is apples and oranges when you take it out of this context and look at it in a larger one. But that's not what was being considered. Whether or not it should is another story all together.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 4:40 PM
Claire: I see what you're saying. I do swear an awful lot, I'm sorry for that. And I do realize this board has a diversity of women of different ages and backgrounds and I probably shouldn't be so ...vulgar. All of my friends are pretty much men. (Metalheads to be precise) and I am incredibly used to having to scream and yell and swear in order to make myself heard and to get my point across and I see now that I don't have to do that here. Women are very different from men I should know that =P. I'm sorry. Though I won't take back any of the things I've said, I realize now that the way I said some of those things were a little too confrontational for most women, and for this kind of place.
snowdrops
(Login snowdropsfalling)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 4:46 PM
The problem is your taking posts out of context and WAY too seriously. I could give a crap whether you are vegetarian or not. And they have organic and free range meat as well. Is that what you mean by cultivation? Calling people who eat meat ignorant isn't too nice either. Not everyone can afford a 20 dollar cut of meat so I'll continue eating whatever type of meat I please without people who are vegans look down upon people eating meat which is exactly what you are being really hypocritical about. Everyone has the right of freedom of speech but when you do so childishly with screams and curses no one is going to take you seriously. None of the people here eating meat were forcing you to eat meat and yelling at you for not eating it, but they were maturely stating their opinions on it.
Sure it's possible, but all he was trying to say was it is harder. Vegans can take soy protein drinks,etc. to supplement where meat is missing. I don't see anywhere where he even directly attacked vegetarians, but you just took it the wrong way and see everything as an attack towards you. Why don't we let this issue between vegans and people who eat meat drop. It's too ridiculous when posts like these pop up from people offended thinking everyone has a thing against vegans.
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 5:17 PM
I wasn't calling people who eat meat ignorant. Just those who don't understand why it's wrong the way we raise our animals and berate the earth.
Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 5:49 PM
Would there be any interest in a proper double blind study?
I could write it up and put it on here for all of you to review. I am 90% sure that I could get backing from an herb company to sponsor it (publically or privately).
We would need a statistically significant number of participants times two. In other words, if the study group is 10 women, then the control group is 10 women. I was thinking that meat/non meat would be good. But it could be done by age or children (vs. none) or even by individual herbs vs. premix. Another possibility is BO vs. herbs or PM vs. herbs. There are a lot of possibilities depending on what you are interested in. I think the meat vs. non meat issue would be a good one. Participants would be assigned anonymous user accounts to protect anonymity and to make it possible to be double blind. The drawback for me is that I would have to post zero posts for the duration in order to avoid contamination.
Any thoughts?
Wahaika
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 5:58 PM
Also, This is not to beat anyone over the head with. It is the first logical step in fact finding once there is an hypothesis. True?
Tessie
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:21 PM
I think that is a great idea Wahaika!
Moon
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SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:34 PM
Um, sounds good, I would participate. But... what's the difference? I mean, this experiment is already being carried out, only not officially.
Btw...
Wahaika, there's a few things I've been wanting to ask you for a while. I hear you are into NBE to help your wife on her growing quest, I found this quite amazing and inetresting. Did you by chance take interest in NBE also from professional reasons? And is your wife parhaps one of the women who have more trouble growing? Thanks!
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 6:50 PM
eating lots of meat won't make you grow boobs nor will eating only veggies.The key is a good balanced diet combined with the herbs and massages,everything in moderation. don't forget to each his/her own!!! Happy Growing
Vienay
(Login Vienay)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 8:43 PM
I would be interested in your study Wahaika. I am taking the PM so that would of course effect what group I would be in, but you could count on me to participate. If you want to rally the ladies it would be a good idea to post a thread inviting them to do the study because not everyone reads all these threads. A lot of ladies avoid the argumentative threads because they don't want to get caught up in it.
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 8:51 PM
I am in. But you'll have to make clear distinctions on diet:
Meat eater = beef, pork, chicken, fish, or any other animal flesh
Vegetarian = no animal flesh but may eat eggs and/or dairy products
Vegan = no animal products whatsoever
There seems to be some ambiguity on this board as to what constitutes a meat eater and a vegetarian; ie. 'I'm a vegetarian who eats fish.' That's not a vegetarian!
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 8:54 PM
^ To the person above: except it's not necessary to eat meat to have a good, balanced diet. This has been scientifically proven over and over again for the past 20 years. If you would like some sources I will get you some... And we don't eat "just veggies", I'm not sure what you meant by that but I just want to clarify. =/
And yes I agree wholeheartedly that a balanced diet is necessary for NBE! as is adequate protein (and yes, it's fairly easy to get adequate protein on a vegan/vegetarian diet).
Alcest
(Login Alcest)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 17 2007, 9:04 PM
My post above was for the anonymous poster, not Corrie. I just realized it looks like I'm talking to her.
sophie9
(Login sophie9)
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 18 2007, 12:00 AM
wahaika - unlike another poster said, i think there are simply degrees of how much meat a woman eats in a day, a week, a month, even more than several months. there are people who basically eat vegetarian foods but do eat fish or other meat on occassion and do not consider themselves to be vegetarian. i am one of them. my favorite foods just happen to be vegetarian dishes, but i eat meat more than the vegetarian who decides to eat the thanksgiving day turkey.
so perhaps instead of dividing people into groups of meat eaters, you could look at dividing people into groups of how much meat is consumed in a week or a month. it wouldn't be too difficult to do. women could even keep anonymous programs or posts perhaps where they keep a sort of food diary, which would help even more with determining what types of animal protein we are consuming. that would include eggs and dairy products. then you would actually know what each person in the study is eating. if you created a post asking us to estimate how much animal protein, eggs, and dairy we consume in a week, i think that would account for the variance of animal protein people consume. instead of coming to a conclusion that may be incorrect (for example, you may conclude that meateaters grow more while not considering other sources of animal protein, or you may conclude that eating meat doesn't significantly affect growth while there are some people who do consume a lot of dairy or fish)then i think your study could yield some interesting conclusions. if you threw someone like myself into the meateater group of people who eat red meat three times a week, whereas i eat no red meat and usually only eat fish) then you could use me to substantiate that meateaters grow more, since i have grown over an inch in a month - and basically on a vegetarian diet using mostly soy and and fish as protein sources.
so i think there is a great variance in diet, and while you cannot account for all, perhaps you could find more people to participate if you created other subgroups to account for this variance. there is also the problem of most of us taking different herbs at different doses, as well as the fact that some who participate may be presently taking something that does not work for them, but may later find something that does. and that could sway findings in either direction. if we were all on the same herbal course, that wouldn't work either because that obviously isn't going to work for anyone either. so like most experiments of this sort, it will of course have limitations that will affect findings. but we could at least get an interesting representation of how animal protein in a diet affects growth. i don't think people are simply meat eaters or vegetarians, and i think there is a great variance, and while it is impossble to get accurate results while accounting for individuals with diets unique to them, creating more than just a control group and one experimental group would offer a more accurate conclusion. it is also doubly complicated since there are vegetarians and there are vegans - who consume no dairy or eggs. not eating meat but consuming dairy and eggs could have an effect on growth as well. so...ugh...there are so many variables to consider! i'm sure there is a way to consolidate these variables in a way that could offer helpful conclusions, but considering them all would be impossible. that is why i suggested perhaps having those who participate create a sort of food journal that could perhaps help with this problem. at least the information would be available to you. well...i would be interested in participating if the amount of animal products consumed per week or per month were taken into consideration. per month would be easy for those who consume meat regulary, and per month would be easy for someone like myself who generally knows how much meat i consume in a month. wow...this is long! i also think after this whole unfortunate "debacle" more vegetarians, vegans, and people who mostly eat vegetarian, would be more interested in participating if it wasn't just a vegetarian versus "meat and potato" eaters study, but rather took into consideration to a degree some variance of animal protein consumed. just my $0.02.
violet
(Login _violet_)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Arguments In Regards To Wahaika's Survey
March 18 2007, 1:01 AM
::yawn::
I'm not even a vegetarian and this subject is annoying the hell out of me... There's a fine line between expressing an opinion that may or may not be useful to someone, and state that vegetarians will not grow on NBE. I can't picture how can that be useful to anyone, if anything, it's just discouraging for vegetarians on here.
In regards to his supposed intelligence well, human curiosity and research do wonders! Maybe a few on here should give it a try!!
Frankly his theory merely based on the possibility of meat increasing estrogen levels is... well, fairly pointless. Doesn't make any sense in the slightest, in fact, he wasn't even able to explain it himself.
The only thing he did was to point out at arachidonic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid that can be found in meats, eggs etc., but can also be produced by humans via linoleic acid (another omega 6). AA is important in the making of hormones such as testosterone. Testosterone can be converted into estrogen by enzyme aromatase.
I think anyone on this forum knows how to increase estrogen levels and if it all had to do with estrogen we would all have reached our goals. So far, the success rate among meat eaters is still low, there aren't enough vegetarians to establish a meaningful comparison.
Given all this, if someone can explain me the point behind his remark regarding vegetarians, and his enthusiasm regarding *RED meat, please do so.
*edited to add that small detail.
Edit2: Hahah that "study" would be interesting, the number of women alone (10) is very little to prove anything to begin with. And, to add some credibility to it try and find 20 (10 meat eaters, 10 vegetarians) women with at least similar BMIs. Weight gain must also have to be taken into account.
edit 3: "I think the meat vs. non meat issue would be a good one." -> Really, why? As far as I know the large majority on here are meat eaters and as far as I know, many are having little to no results.