[Wahaika]

Yep, that's pretty close.

1) The testosterone concern aside for a moment, since there are things we could add to address that, hops is a well known breast enhancer. Always has been. But the usage has been almost unknown because of the side effect of making women weepy. Hmmmm. If you wanted to add another supplement to the list that should negate the testosterone issue and help with growth hormone, use Black Currant Oil. Solaray is the one that I would recommend.

2) I don't think that you need any anti-androgens. This is a combination that I already know that works. It is as simple as that. For anyone who wants a program that uses hops, this is a combination that I would recommend.

3) No, Yes. Saw Palmetto should be used with fenugreek and wild yam as is used in the Greenbush kits.

4) I removed alfalfa and barley for now. I need to research if genestein is in alfalfa. I oppose genestein for NBE. Barley has a lot of good things in it that would support NBE. You can use that but I removed it from the list.

[mochaccino]

I didn't mean to seem like I'm concerned with androgens. I don't have any particular reason to be concerned right now. I actually just thought that you yourself were concerned. As for the hops, I never had any emotional reactions to hops, including when I used it for sleep as a teenager, so I'm not super concerned about the possibility of weepiness, but I'll keep an eye out.

You seem to be saying that you didn't intentionally recommend anti-androgens, but, either way, you did recommend them. If you really are correct in saying that people often combine multiple anti-androgens with hops than maybe they are unintentionally raising their free testosterone by inhibiting DHT to compensate for the effect of xanthohumol. How did you come to the conclusion that this was a common combination? I know you normally don't link to programs, but if you can remember any examples it would be extremely helpful. I'm going to try researching programs that combined hops with anti-androgens. I might focus on programs that included something for GLA too, since that might be a critical part of it, but I'm not sure. I really wanna see how the results of this combo are affected by various supps and dietary changes that encourage aromatization.

I also did a little more research on some of the supps I listed, so I thought I might as well mention it. It looks like both SP and PSO (is that a thing? ) inhibit DHT with beta-sitosterol. Also, you are correct that PSO does a little something extra on top of that. I just learned that it contains Delta-7-sterine, which blocks DHT receptors. I'm not sure if this is important for most BE programs. It sounds like it would only matter to people who are having noticeable problems caused by DHT, but I'm not sure.

Speaking of anti-androgens, I was extremely interested in stinging nettle since it seems to do such a wide range of things, but now I'm a little scared to use it, since I heard that it inhibits estrogen production. Uh-oh. I'm gonna have to look into this to find out whether it really does this to a significant degree.

I also looked into Barley grain (as opposed to grass), and it turns out that it contains a decent amount of azelaic acid which inhibits DHT. Barley also contains b-vitamins, and is just generally nutritious, but I'm not sure how much the vitamins matter if someone is willing to include to "normal" vitamin supplements in their program. Eve's program only included supps that are herbs or foods. I don't know if that's really relevant. Maybe you have something else to add about barley. The azelaic acid really interests me. Yet another DHT blocker! What does this mean? Hmmm Apparently sometimes 5-alpha reductase inhibitors act synergistically. There's a lot more info about that on boards that focus on acne or hair loss. I'm going to have to do a lot more research if I want to become knowledgeable about that aspect. Oh well

Last question. Why do you oppose genistein for BE? Overall, I think using a wider range of phytoestrogens might be a very good idea. If not alfalfa then what?

Update:
I found this on your board "I have some research somewhere that says that the genistein in soy inhibits T3 production in the thyroid." Luckily there are a bunch of other phytoestrogens to choose from. Maybe it would be ok in small doses? There are so many others that it might not be hard to avoid it entirely.

[mochaccino]

Oh I forgot to ask whether you had any more info on blessed thistle. Finding info on it has been unusually difficult. Why did you recommend it? Do you know how it raises milk production? In the past you said that you thought increased prolactin might not be good for BE, so do you believe that blessed thistle doesn't necessarily increase prolactin? Have you changed your mind about prolactin?

[mochaccino]

Sorry, but I just thought of yet another question. Are you suggesting that I replace the EPO with black currant oil? What does black currant oil have that EPO and borage oil do not? How does it increase growth hormone?

Also, since I want to include a wider range of phytoestrogens in my program, I'm considering adding a low dose, standardized, PM pill. The only one I could fine that is still available in the US is Nature's Answer Pueraria Mirifica Estro-balance. If I do include it I might have to cycle it. I haven't decided whether the DIM it contains is good, bad, or neutral for BE. I believe that PM from the usual suppliers, such as St.Herb, can work, but I just can't bring myself to trust them. Who's knows how much their product varies from batch to batch. They can't even be bothered to list all the ingredients on their site *sigh*. Besides, I much prefer a standardized supplement whenever possible.

[Wahaika]

>>"How did you come to the conclusion that this was a common combination?"

I read the above and cannot find where I referred to a common combination. Can you point me out to this. I don't see it yet.

>>"Last question. Why do you oppose genistein for BE?"

Because genestein has been shown in research to inhibit the building of blood vessels in cancer. For cancer, it would be a good thing, but for anything else that is intentionally hypertrophic, I think that it would be something to avoid. As with everything else, however, it is a balancing act. It all depends on each individual endocrine system and physical characteristics, what each herb does in spite of its individual ingredients because combinations and synergies outweigh the sum of their parts.

>>"Oh I forgot to ask whether you had any more info on blessed thistle. Finding info on it has been unusually difficult. Why did you recommend it? "
>>"Do you know how it raises milk production? "
>>"In the past you said that you thought increased prolactin might not be good for BE, so do you believe that blessed thistle doesn't necessarily increase prolactin? Have you changed your mind about prolactin?"

I have not changed my mind about blessed thistle or prolactin. Just curious, what do you think that I think about blessed thistle or prolactin? (Hint: I'm in favor of both, but in certain contexts.)

>>"Sorry, but I just thought of yet another question. Are you suggesting that I replace the EPO with black currant oil?"

No, but now that I look at it, keep the EPO, Borage, and Flaxseed oil on the back burner. Try it without those three first.

Just curious, why are you considering DIM? I can't think of anyone that it has ever worked for. Whenever you see the word "balance" on a label, watch out. Balance from what state? Most supplements that I am aware of that tout "balance" really mean "inhibit estrogen" through one way or the other. In the case of DIM, it appears to be very good for those who are in menopause, men, and those seeking to avoid breast cancer - the very group where excess estrogen is a problem. The answer: supress it in one way or another. For NBE, this is a bad idea. I also acknowledge the exceptions to the rule. Until we can explain why exceptions exist then I see no other way to view them than as exceptions. Hopefully more will be learned in time, from an NBE standpoint. Until then, I discourage the use of DIM in NBE because of the track record. However, it should be a great addition to a maintenance program.

I still think that St. Herb is the best one out there available. I agree that they should list their ingredients on the website. One thing with St. Herb, is that they will sell the PM and PM extract in bulk. One could make a customized batter from it if they desired.

[Wahaika]

Have you decided to cycle herbs?

[mochaccino]

Yes. I think Ill start cycling the herbs I already have, and add in mint tea and cut out the internal oils, like you suggested. Im still toying with using PM extract as a topical, but I dont know if I should take the risk of overloading myself.

[Wahaika]

Ok, I changed my mind on hops. It would be better to leave it out.

[mochaccino]

What? That's confusing It doesn't matter anyway since I'll be doing the cycling program. Thanks for all the help

[mochaccino]

I don't know if anyone is following this thread all that closely, but some of you might be interested to hear how he came up with the new hops based program he just recommended. He told me on his other board that he didn't really come up with it at all. It's based on an existing product with a few tweaks, like his greenbush program. Apparently there used to be a product called Herbal Breast Actives (HBA on the old forums). Mominator had fantastic results on HBA, but eventually stalled and switched to greenbush. She didn't lose her growth. She just stalled. Unfortunately, you won't be able to find much info on her and her program any more because she deleted it all. She chose to leave up some of her general tip threads, and they are still very well worth reading. Wahaika's recommendations are based on educated guesses about the amount of herbs in HBA. I haven't been able to find an official list of the ingredients that were in that product but, according to all the info I could find on the old board, the milligrams were never listed. He also removed red clover, which HBA contained (I think), because RC contains genistein, and he's against genistein for BE. Herbal Breast Actives doesn't exist anymore, and it has nothing to do with "Breast Actives", which is a totally unrelated company. If you try to google "herbal breast actives", one of the first things that comes up is Triactol, which also has nothing to do with Herbal Breast Actives.

BTW, I'm not sure what he meant to say about hops in his last post above. I think he just doesn't want me to combine it with his regular recommended cycling program. I've decided to try the HBA plan only if cycling doesn't work. He knows I'm very tempted to include hops, but he's not the only one who thinks anti-androgens might be a necessary addition to a hops program (even if he doesn't seem to know why).