[mochaccino]

I started out by doing NG and some basic non-herbal supplements. I also used some lotions, but those were for perkiness, not size. I gained probably about 3/4" or 1" but I don't know for sure because I didn't know how to measure properly and my measurements were all over the place. The only reason I know for sure that I gained a decent amount, is because I can actually see the difference. Too bad that the 32.5" measurement I took at the end of my program was probably completely wrong . I noogled only about 3 or 4 times since the second to last post in my previous program. Because of that, I did not grow any more at all until I started my herbal program about a month ago. I hope to start noogling again, but the construction going on at my house is making It nearly impossible. I've stopped the low cal diet, but Ill still be keeping close track of what I eat, and Ill be seeing a personal trainer for strength training.

Stats:
Height: 5'2"
Weight: 119 lb
Underbust: 30"
Bust: 32.25"
Bra size: 34AA

Internal:
1000 mg Vit-c
7200 mg MSM
2000 mg collagen with HA
500 mg dandelion root
B complex
Multivitamin
2200 mg each FG, and WY
2000 mg hops
3000 mg EP
1500 mg fish oil, not concentrated
1500 mg wild oat extract
4400 mg SP
Fennu-fennel tea made with 2 tsp fennel and 1 tsp FG, 2x daily

Diet:
100 g protein, mostly from animal sources
4 cups fruits and veg (especially dark green veggies)
I also eat other things in addition to this, but I always try to meet these minimums for meat and veg.

External:
Copper peptide lotion (for perkiness)
Boobie batter made with fenugreek, goats rue, borage oil, and olive oil 2x daily
Hops extract 2x daily

[mochaccino]

I thought I should add a few notes about my experiences thus far. I ramped up slowly for slightly over 2 weeks, so I have been following my new plan in full for only about 2 weeks. On the 4th day of the ramp up I suddenly got mild pains and heavy, obvious swelling. I stopped ramping up for the next two days, just in case I had already reached my limit, but the pains did not come back after the 4th day. I kept ramping up after that, and I did not get any pains again, until 2 days ago when I added hops extract to my massage regimen. After I massaged with the hops, they swelled noticeably in just a few hours. Thats the quickest response Ive had to any herb so far. Hopefully it will translate to actual growth. I haven't measured the new swelling. The measurement above was taken just before I added the hops extract to my program

[mochaccino]

I finally realized that the hops Im taking is 4:1 strength, not 1:1 like my Greenbush extracts. I think that means I was taking the equivalent of 8g! (O_O) That probably explains some of the weird symptoms Ive been having. It's amazing that they were so mild. I just had some cramps, flu-like aches, and spotting during ovulation. I have never experienced that before in my entire life. Time to detox I guess I can't believe I made this mistake. Im the kind if person who always reads instruction booklets twice. Im usually not so careless. Ill be sure to actually read the botles from now on

[mochaccino]

Its even worse than I thought. I thought that 500 mg worth of extract was 1/4 tsp, but it's actually 1/8th. That means I was taking 16g of hops, not 8g I wonder how long it'll take to get it out of my system. This is so stupid its embarassing. Oh well, nothing to do now but wait it out.

[mochaccino]

I got a second opinion on how long my break should be, and they confirmed that 1 week is long enough. I'll be doing the ramp up all over again starting today. I'm starting fresh with a revised plan. I think I assumed that I had high androgens, but now I think that I probably don't, so I'm lowering my dose of SP, and cutting out hops, wild oat, and fish oil. Here's my current plan:

1500mg FG
1500mg SP
1500mg WY
3000mg EPO
3000mg Flax seed oil
B complex
Multivitamin
2000mg collagen with HA
7200mg MSM
2 cups fennu-fennel tea
3 massages daily with FG batter and heat (made according to Wahaika's directions)


Right now I feel like it might not be worthwhile to continue the collagen and MSM after I finish my stash. Whatever they're contributing is minimal at best, and I want to limit my program to only whats strictly necessary. Im pretty good about taking pills, but I want to insure that I'll be 100% consistent. This plan is easy enough that Ill have no excuse.The massage is the only thing that might be a bit difficult to stick with, but I try to remind myself how important it is.

[mochaccino]

I can't believe it's been such a long time since I updated my program. I wasn't feeling anything, in my boobs or any where else, so I tried upping the dosage little by little until I was taking the absolute maximum dose. In my opinion, if it were really having much of an effect on my hormones, than something should have happened, good or bad, somewhere in my body. It did not make me feel any different, affect my cycle, or anything. There initially was a little swelling, within the first two weeks or so, but it dissapeared and never came back, not even temporarily, except for the time I applied the hops topically. I also experienced midcycle pain and spotting when I took too much of the hops extract. Other than those two side effects, I may as well have been taking a sugar pill.

After that little experiment with high doses, I stopped cold turkey for a while and restarted on a super low dose, but nothing has changed. Wahaika himself has claimed that if the herbs are having an effect on you, you should experience some rebound swelling or breast pain when you stop cold turkey after taking a high dose. I didn't experience anything, and I'm beginning to think that continuing with this particular program would be delusional. I'm no where near ready to give up on BE, of course, but I think I may start fresh with a completely different program again. The noogling is so far the only thing that seemed to work, but I haven't noogled in ages, so I think I will reintroduce that into my program.

[mochaccino]

I want to start a new program that involves cycling bioidentical estradiol and progesterone creams. I might also include something to block shbg. I'm gonna try to explain some of my reasons for trying this approach, mostly in the hope that someone will correct me if i'm wrong or elaborate on some of these ideas. Okay, here goes nothing...

There used to be a lot of talk about how some phytoestrogens are even more estrogenic then estradiol. I think I even remember someone claiming that deoxymiroestrol was hundreds of times stronger than endogenous estrogens. I looked into it and came to the conclusion that, lucky for us, the estrogenic potential of all the major phytoestrogens have been studied, and although the different studies are not all directly comparable to eachother, every real endocronologist seems to believe that there are absolutely no phytoestrogens, including deoxymiroestrol, that are as estrogenic as estradiol. I could have completely misinterpreted what was being said, but I don't see how I could have. They all seem pretty straight forward on this point. I definitely welcome correction on this issue, if anyone has some contradictory info. Unfortunately, this probably also means that bioidentical estradiol is a lot more dangerous than most phytoestrogens, in the sense that it would be a lot easier to take too much. If I do decide to use it, I'll probably need to do saliva tests at least once a month.

Another issue I've been thinking about is that the number one most important goal of almost any hormonal program is stimulating the estrogen receptors in the breasts as much as possible without triggering too much down-regulation. In the beginning, I just could not figure out why some herbal programs were so complicated, including the one I eventually ended up following. Theoretically it should be possible to stimulate the estrogen receptors in the breasts locally with some sort of estrogen, or estrogen mimic, and that should be enough for growth. In real life, estrogen has to be balanced by progesterone to avoid serious health problems, but one of the primary functions of progesterone is to halt the proliferation of estrogen sensitive cells, so I think it would probably be best to apply progesterone everywhere EXCEPT my breasts. Does this make sense? Some people have had success constantly applying PC, but it can cause swelling indirectly by increasing prolactin and filling up the milk ducts, and can also directly cause edema (water storage) in all the breast tissues. PC also causes real growth of mammary glands but not fat, so rhe few people who have had permanent growth on PC have probably had an usually huge amount of growth of mammary glands. Then again, it's also possible for progesterone to be converted to estrogen in the body, and in some people this conversion may be much more efficient then in others. Of course, there are plenty of people who take it just to balance estrogen, and that's why I'll be taking it. It also up-regulates estrogen receptors, as an added bonus. How should I go about balancing these hormones throughout my cycle? I have no idea. So confused

[mochaccino]

I forgot to explain why I might need to take an SHBG blocker. The body increases SHBG in response to excess estrogen (it binds up sex hormones), and for all I know, my body might be able to produce enough to wash away most of the excess. Then again I'm not sure how relevant this is if I'm applying it locally. A lot of the estrogen would end up in my bloodstream and have a systemic effect, and some of that estrogen would get bound up by SHBG, but as long the estrogen stored in my breast fat is unusually high, does that even matter? The SHBG also might be an extremely important safe guard against systemic effects of excess estrogen, but what if it's capable of sopping up enough estrogen to destroy my results? It's possible that only lots of saliva tests will answer this question. In that case, I'll guess I'll have to buy an SHBG blocker without knowing for sure whether I really need it or not. It's not very expensive, but If I take it, it'll probably also increase my free testosterone, which may mean I'll have continue taking a DHT blocker, and doing what I can to encourage aromatization. It's amazing how quickly this became complicated and expensive all over again

[mochaccino]

I really hope someone has something, anything at all, to say about my possible program. Cycling has me sooo confused If I go about it the wrong way, at best it won't work, and at worst I could fudge up my whole endocrine system. Help plz!

[Wahaika]

Hello Mochaccino,

You tried the program listed on January 28th for two months and got nothing?

Try it again. Did you ramp up your dosages? What brand of herbs did you use?

From above:
>>"I want to start a new program that involves cycling bioidentical estradiol and progesterone creams. I might also include something to block shbg. "

This would be a HUGE mistake! Please don't do that.

>>"There used to be a lot of talk about how some phytoestrogens are even more estrogenic then estradiol. "

All phytoestrogens are thousands of times less potent than estradiol. I see talk where phytoestrogens are assumed to be the same as estrogen all the time. They are wrong. Phytoestrogens are not even close to the real thing. They "bind loosely" to receptor sites because the molecular structure is "close enough" to dock.

>>"...so I think it would probably be best to apply progesterone everywhere EXCEPT my breasts. Does this make sense?"

I understand the logic, but it is the wrong way to go about it and if you supplement with progesterone when there is no need to correct a problem then you will be doing a huge amount of damage to your endocrine system and it may not self correct. I have seen several cases of this. Do not do it. This is not a drill. Additionally, progesterone will bring any hope of growth to a grinding halt.

Try again. Let's keep in contact and see if there is some tweaking that will make it work. Start with Greenbush herbs if you did not before.

Wahaika