[Isabelle]

Well, sgc42,

It's hard to tell. What I normally advise is to start PM capsules on day 1, yes. From day 25 to the start of the period, low doses are best, because that's how the body naturally prepares itself for the period. Some women feel best on a low dose of PM or PM cream, because that could take the irritability away. Others feel better on a low dose of their progesterone supplement, because that could take the headache away. Because you feel both, it may be helpful to try taking both, but at low doses. Keep us posted on what works

[sgc42]

I'm so glad that you asked me about this because I wondered myself about using both just one dose of each just for a short time. You see, before I took pm, I had very painful and heavy periods, lasting 10 days or longer sometimes and a whole host of other issues and at my age, I believe my estrogen had started to decline. And also I think my progesterone was lacking, my libido had started vanishing long ago. Ainterol gives dosing instructions for menopause relief as one capsule per day, increasing until you have relief from symptoms. When I started taking pm, gradually, everything got better, even my libido. I used to lose a scary amount of hair in every shower and I usually had a pimple somewhere at any given time of the month, my skin practically oozed oil, and night sweats started last year. But then I became estro dominant, and had to take the break. All the bad stuff came back within that month long break. I was taking it for breast enhancement but it seemed to fix everything else that was bothering me. I was afraid that if the dose for menopause relief was one capsule per day, then if I cycled it and took no pm for 14 or 15 days that it would not be enough to give me growth. I guess I need to find that very fine line between estro dominance and a little extra estro and the only way to do that is trial and error. Since I did get a headache yesterday, I didn't take the evening capsule and my headache went completely away. I did take one this morning and don't have any symptoms as of yet, so we'll see. And really, I'm not especially irritated today. Looks like I got lots of experimenting to do. I wish this were easier to figure out

Of course I'll keep you posted and make lots of notes here as a way of keeping track of dosing and symptoms and such.


Thanks again Isabelle for suggesting this to me.

[Isabelle]

Thank you sgc42,

This looks like a PM succes story. At your age, you shouldn't really be perimenopausal yet. Apparently, the PM took care of it.

There may be an easier way to figure it out. In the graphs top right on this page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_cycle
you can see that estrogens never really drop to zero. Progesterone is zero from day 25 to day 11. This plot does not work well for all women. As I wrote, some feel better on low progesterone and no estrogens between days 25-28. Since you do well on one PM and no PC, you may as well try to follow the rest of the graphs too. There is one precaution: The drop in estrogens on day 12 must be more abrupt than shown. Taking too much PM on days 12 and 13 may suppress ovulation. But your current schedule already takes care of that.

[sgc42]

Hello Isabelle,

It looks like I started taking pm (accidentally) at the exact perfect time in my life, something finally went right for me, lol! All I plan to do now is follow my plans and, if I get symptomatic, take notes and make adjustments as necessary. Oh how I hope this works out for me! I know pm works but I had my doubts that I would be able to figure out how to use it for my personal needs and levels.
Recently someone had made a thread about shrinking and you wrote that pm suppresses prolactin, and that women who cycle pm get swelling during luteal. Well, when I took my month break, I got fantastic swelling. Shocked me, really. But this current cycle I didn't get it immediately I was certain I'd done something wrong. However, today being day 23 of my cycle, my breasts are feeling full and heavy. I kept bumping them with my arms today, on the sides. It's a little hard to explain but like, when I walked and swung my arms, they rubbed the sides of my breasts. And if I reached with my right arm for something to the left of me, I bumped my breast. It was kinda odd and clumsy, I have to admit. I was really hoping for cleavage, you know, in the middle, not so much the sides! It's probably just swelling though. I'm interested in noogleberry because I read that it could help with sagging and would "round out" breasts, if the sides keep spreading out, I'll definitely need "rounding out".

Also I forgot to mention a supplement that I had been taking. I was taking milk thistle, everyday, to cleanse excess estrogen from my liver. Then on second day of luteal I got a headache. I had no idea why, completely puzzled me until I read another post where you wrote that milk thistle is actually estrogenic! I stopped taking it, headache stopped, that simple And considering that it was just a small dose, and even it made my head hurt, I must have been teetering on the edge of estro dominance. You've saved my aching head so much lately!

So thank you again. I'll be sure to post any new developments. I'm going to post my measurements so I can compare every so often but I suppose I should wait til the week following my period so not to include any swelling. And I might get creative with some pm extract that I happen to have. Oh why can't I seem to leave well enough alone!
Good night and sleep well!

[sgc42]

Ok, so I've been on pm since day 18, (second week of luteal) one cap per day and used pm cream once per day also. There were two days that I felt necessary to add some pc cream, due to ED headache but other than those days I felt fine.

I started my period today, day 28, and I have to admit, I'm ready for the swelling to go away! It hurts! They are so heavy. I hate to bend over even with a good supportive bra on. And you just cannot imagine what my 5 month old niece is putting me through! When I didn't cycle the pm, I didn't do this. At times they felt a little sensitive, but no where close to this. Oddly, the cycle that I took a whole month off pm, they swelled really big with luteal and lasted a very long time. I didn't measure before but I'd give anything if I had. So I've measured now, with swelling and I'll measure again when it goes down. I've looked on the forum to see how to measure the right way. I held the tape snug to measure under breasts, and loose around the bust at fullest part. I got 30 inches, underneath, and 36 1/2 at fullest part of bust. One bra size calculator said I wore a 36 AA. A different one said I wore a 34 D. So I don't know if I did it right or not, but as long as I measure the same way every time, then it should be ok, lol.

So nothing else new right now, I'll post again when I measure after the swelling subsides

[sgc42]

So on day 5 of my cycle I measured:
30 in.- under bust
36 in.- fullest part of bust
I really don't understand my measurements. I see other members measurements like 30 inches under bust with 35 or 36 around the bust and they wear an A cup. I just got a bra from vs that is a t-shirt type bra, a C cup, and it fits without my luteal swelling. But the bra calculator on vs said I wore a 34 D. And in another thread, I saw a link for a bra calculator that said I would wear a 36 AA. I'm fast coming to the conclusion that I can't go by cup sizes as far as a goal. I'm just going to keep working on it till I feel happy with my size. I guess next time I should measure my waist and hips so it will help give a clearer picture of how I look. I feel like I'm made really weird. Definitely not an hour glass.

On another subject, I have joined the ranks of Nooglers! I had no trouble getting good suction. I'm using the large domes and had no trouble at all using both domes at the same time the very first try. Yay! But then, I got no swelling
I noogled only for half an hour the first time, not really sure if I pumped enough that time. I've read that over-pumping can have really bad effects, so I took it a little easy. No swelling at all. Then today, I noogled for a whole hour, and pumped til I was on the edge of uncomfortable. They did turn red this time from the blood being drawn in, but again, no swelling at all. I'm wondering how much noogling will it take to start seeing swelling? Does it just not happen at first? I thought the website said that at first, the swelling would only be for a few hours, then would gradually fill in with tissue, resulting in growth. I took that to mean that the swelling should happen from the beginning. Am I wrong?

If nbe has taught me anything at all, it would be that patience (and persistence) is a must. So I'll march on

[sgc42]

During this cycle I decided to make a slight change. It was first suggested to me to use fenugreek instead of PC, but because of my distaste for the smell, I decided to use PC instead and ever since, I felt like I didn't really give the FG a chance. So this cycle I used FG caps during luteal. The caps I have are 610 mg and I took one morning, and one nightly. My last cycle, I resumed PM caps on day 18, but this cycle I didn't. I tried to do follicle phase-PM, luteal phase-FG. Which is what I think most PM users do. It hasn't worked out to say the least. On day 19 I began spotting, and the next day (yesterday) started a full on period!
So now, am I on day 21? Or is this now day 1? I'm so confused. And also yesterday I got a pounding migraine shortly after taking the FG. So I have used PC twice to combat ED symptoms, which has helped a little. But I can't think straight to save my life and clearly am in deep ED right now. I can't even think straight enough to try to figure this mess out. So for today, since again I woke up with a headache, I used PC and nothing else except my daily vitamins. And I never got ANY luteal swelling! I feel like this cycle was a complete bust!

So, according to this little experiment, FG doesn't work for me. But now what do I do? If this should be day 1, then I should be resuming PM, but with my symptoms, there's no way I'd even consider it. I'm so lost

[Isabelle]

Oww sgc42,

So sorry to read this. I must say I'm lost too. Does the PC help? If it doesn't, try one PM. Headaches can also be a symptom of estrogen deficiency, but it rarely happens that anyone gets that low.

I would say this is day 1. But most women who experience a cycle like this break from PM, until their next period. I haven't read too many stories from women who started PM and just continued cycling.

I'm really puzzled. FG is one of those safe herbs. It usually stops a lot more trouble than it causes...

[sgc42]

Hi Isabelle,

I'm really puzzled too, I sure didn't expect a full period this early. And that's the part I can't figure out, I figured if the FG wasn't enough for me then I would get a headache, but what does any of this have to do with a period on day 20? I never skipped any doses of PM, I stopped taking them on day 12, and used FG. If I were going to be messed up, I would've thought I'd have started on day 12 or 13, not 19 and 20!

Anyway, the PC cream did ease my head and helped clear my thoughts so it was ED. I think I'll call this day 1 on a new cycle and tomorrow I'll take one PM cap in the morning and see if I get a headache, if I don't then I'll probably still wait a few days before I add the second dose. And then on day 12, stop the PM, use the PC , and I guess, see what happens next. Not much else I can do at this point.

I'm inclined to think that this messed up cycle has something to do with early menopause, which only further complicates finding a way to use PM to suit my personal needs. Now that I can think, I remember thinking the other day that I didn't feel ovulation this time, which I usually do. I always know exactly when and which side. But this time I never felt a thing, (unless it happened in my sleep) I really should start BBT. Maybe I had an anovulatory cycle? Maybe that would explain why I didn't get my usual fantastic swelling during luteal? I don't know, *sighs shaking head* I'm just gonna try to get back on track and use the PC next luteal, I still don't think the fenugreek caused any of this, just maybe it wasn't strong enough for me, especially if I didn't ovulate to begin with. Ahhhhh, who knows I just hope next cycle is more predictable.

[Isabelle]

Hi sgc42,

This explains why it's between 17 and 21 days:
http://journals.lww.com/menopausejournal...on.11.aspx

These cycles occur in perimenopause, yes, but the odd thing is, the pattern fits the descriptions that women on the forum wrote after their cycles got messed up by PM.

There has been a line of thought among perimenopausal women on the forum that tried to find a way to cycle PM that would regulate these cycles back to normal. Susan (beachbumbythesea) and Mel (itsjust4fun91) were looking into this.