18-08-2010, 08:21 AM
Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time?
March 18 2009 at 6:27 PM molehills (no login)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, just wondering if any of you out there who have finished using Brava for an extended period of time could update us with your long-term results...
did you get permanent growth? How much?
Thanks!
Author Reply
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 18 2009, 8:23 PM
Hi, Molehills.
Since most Brava graduates seem to disappear from this board over time, I have had my best information by reading through all the past pages on this forum. They go all the way back to 2006. It seems some people experienced no growth, even after a full year of use, while others increased over a cup.
I haven't graduated yet. I have half a year to go. I started with nothing so I imagine it will take me that long just to get to a AA!
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molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 18 2009, 10:02 PM
Hi Roakie
yeah, I read back to some of the old posts...I was hoping maybe some of those former posters (or lurkers who did Brava and never posted) might see this and give us a longer perspective on the process...I mean after they had actually stopped for a good while...but you're probably right, I'm sure they've gone on to better things!
It does give me pause to think it just might not work very much in some cases in the long-term...but I decided at the outset that I'll be happy even with just some more fullness (although I can't help starting to want the size of the swelling I see when I take off the domes. Still, less sag and more roundness on top would be great (instead of the ski jump look 
), and that seems achievable. I'm continuing to take some herbs/oils which I hope will help, and protein drinks and collagen for building tissue. I may also try the Ro-bust cream...can't hurt, right? Attack on all fronts...
Your perseverance is inspiring and I hope we all meet our goals!!!
Edit Message Delete Message
zuzuzu
(no login) I have used brava, 3 cycles March 19 2009, 4:54 AM
I used brava about 4 years ago.Started with 32 b and wore brava for 5 months average 15 hours a day.I increased my size one cup up but 1 month after stopping brava that one cup increase had changed to may be 1/4 th increase.I did another cycle in couple of months and then 3rd cycle after a break of few months again.This all happened 4 years ago.Then I was soo tierd of using brava and missing on comfortable good night sleep that I just packed it away.Now my size is32 c.Better than what i had before brava use.If I calculate altogether,I used brava for 11 months.I am still in search of some mehtod that does not involve any pill intake or things like brava that had killed my social and family life for nearly a year.Still I should not complain because I got atleast one inch growth in exchange of 1 year of comfort.
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molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 19 2009, 1:36 PM
thanks for responding, zuzuzu! That's encouraging for me...I would be thrilled to gain a permanent cup size out of this. It sounds like it's necessary to do more than one cycle though...I'm willing at this point but I don't know how I'll feel after 10 weeks
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Got my $1600 worth and still investing March 19 2009, 11:08 PM
I've been using the brava system since june 2008. I miseed 2-3 days during my first five weeks. I had a death in the family, so I gave it up for a month. I then tried again early august. I stopped 2 weeks just before Xmas 2008. I started with 33 inches which made me a 34 AAA. After the program (post one month) I measured 35inches, finally a full 34A. This is my second session, I began the first week of January.... I missed about 2 days, but I will be done in 2 weeks. My goal is to be a full 34B or small C by my birthday in August. I know it can happen.
Here is the secret with brava..... YOU CAN NOT MISS A DAY!!! If you miss 3 days with the Brava, you just screwed yourself 2 extra weeks on the system. Commitment is the KEY WORD. They explain all this when you order.
Also, understand the timeline to achieve your goal. I'm an African American woman under 30 with no children and a minimum amount of tight breast tissue. I knew it would take me forever...lol, it was in the maunal. If I were a Caucacian woman with a saggy 36 B-cup post breast feeding, I would have seen a cup increase within the 10 week session.
I dont think that some of the woman using the brava (and post or respond to reviews) are being realistic or totally honest about their usage on the system. Bottom line, if you use the system for 15hrs a day for 3 weeks, miss a day one week, wear it for another week, then miss 2 more days, you are not going to be happy.
My Boyfriend was very supportive at first. For him, excitment for bigger breast lasted about 3 months. He then complained about my obsession with the brava. He missed being able to hold me while sleeping. I normally sleep away as many Brava hours as possible,lol. Just last week we were looking at pictures of me on his PC. We came across some naughty ones (ha ha, me topless).We now have concrete evidence! He couldn't stop talking about how much fuller they had be come. More GIRTH was the word used. I think he might be a bit more supportive for now on.
Good luck to all Brava Women!!!!!
Edit Message Delete Message
molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 20 2009, 1:49 PM
thank you so much for that advice Nyah...I'm really glad it worked for you...wow, you grew two inches. That seems more than average, isn't it?
I'm only near the end of my third week and not really retaining anything yet, though I thought I was before. It makes me wonder, if I am not retaining anything by 5 weeks then I won't have much to show by 10 weeks, which is all I can do it this time around...
How long was it before you started retaining anything at the end of the day?
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Best not to stop at 10 weeks March 21 2009, 12:41 AM
Well Molehills, it takes time. In the manual it states that you only truly experince some growth during the 6-10 weeks. That means that your body needs time to recongnize foriegn activity (daily suction and swelling), find a solution, (create new tissue), then solve it, (daily deposits of new tissue).
So if your body takes 3 weeks to realize a continuos problem, you may begin to see or maintain growth at 1cc a day. By week 5, thats about 14cc. So at 10 weeks you've grown 42cc. Thats not even 1/2 a cup size. However if you continue past the 10 and do 20 weeks, you better your results with 110cc or more. Mind you, I'm no doctor.... this is just how I've anaylized it.
I don't know if you are athletic or thin, and perhaps are young and have no children. But all the above and any particular one of the above will challenge your progress...lol. I've noticed with all natrual breast enhancement (including devices) the woman that claim to see immediate or impressive results had sagging A-C cups from breast feeding and/or weight loss.
I can't remember what week I retained growth. Remember I started, then stopped after 5 weeks, then started again a few weeks later. My body may have responded slightly sooner the 2nd time around giving me a 34A. Shadowing was what convinced me. I took pics all the time and I noticed more shadowing of the breasts towards the end of the session.
I've got 2 1/2 more weeks before I complete 10 weeks for the 2nd time. I measure 35 1/2 inches before I wear the device as of today. I pray to have 36 inches (34B) by the end of 10 weeks but I don't plan to stop there. I want to continue wear as long as I can at 10hrs a day, my goal is 37 inches(34C).
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 12:49 AM
Hi, Nyah!
It's great to have you here! I have a question for you. I am in the midst of week 20, and started off totally flat-chested. I have nursed three children and am past menopause, so my skin does stretch more readily than those who have never nursed. But, I have always been thin and I have no fat in my breasts other than when I was pregnant.
With that said, I have only started to retain about a half and inch after 10 hours with the domes off. I can feel a little bit of "heft" to my breast and I can see a clearer "shadow" underneath, as you have said. But, I also have very large pectoral muscles from the domes (average 14/hours per day with no missed days) and I question whether the large muscles are given my breasts a greater measurement than they would, otherwise (hence, the half inch of extra "growth")
I plan to go as long as 50 weeks to see where I get! Do you think that is too long without taking a break? My fear is, when I do take a break, is that I have nothing but bones on my chest. I am getting more fearful and feel that I should keep going for quite a long time longer before taking some time off.
You said you plan to keep going longer this time around. How long do you envision that would be for you?
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molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 3:04 AM
Nyah, your analysis makes sense to me. I would go longer but my bf is supposed to be coming back from overseas at the end of the 10 weeks, so I'll have to stop there. When he leaves again I'll start another cycle though. From reading other posts it seems like the women who had success all did it for a pretty long time, much longer than what Brava claims. Long hours seem to make a big difference too.
I'm in my late 40s, no children, but I used to have implants which I had removed about 10 years ago. So I guess my skin got stretched already from that... which might help.
It's good to hear about real success, makes it seem worth putting the effort in. I know everyone probably responds differently, but at least there's hope. Right now I'll be happy if I have a half cup size of fullness after the 10 weeks.
Good luck to us all...
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Nyah
(no login) Brava and Greenbush March 21 2009, 9:24 AM
Thanks for welcoming me Ladies!!!!
Roakie,
I don't think that 50 weeks is too long (remember the testimony of the woman who went 40+ weeks). The woman on the Brava site said it almost took her a year to achieve a B cup. She was very thin framed and never had children. Perhaps in your case, you have the skin envelope from children..... but just need some help with fat tissue. Thats all breasts are anyway...lol.
In January I became a vegetarian, and added lots of soy to my diet. I also ordered Greenbush liquid breast enhancement blend and the tea. I've been browsing through this forum for a few months now. I've learned that there can be lasting results with herbs and massage (about 1/2 or 1 cup increase). So I figured Brava, Soy, Herbs and Massage!!!!
Brava can be the foundation, the Soy I view as the breast fat booster, and the greenbush blend and tea as the puberty punch!! Once I finish the 10 weeks, I plan to order the large/wide domes, then go another 10 weeks while taking the liquid blend and tea. I picked the liquid because you can add it to anything including lotion for massage. I talked to the Brava coach and she said there was nothing wrong with adding soy and herbs to my Brava Program.
I want to stop for awhile in July to enjoy the summer and my birthday. After that I will follow with about 4 months of herbs, tea and massage. The massage and heating pad with Greenbush herbs is alittle much in combination with the Brava. I will only do a herbal massage during post brava 10+ week sessions. The Soy and Herbs I hope to serve as a back up for missed brava days and/or speed up the process of growth.
Molehill,
I would try the Greenbush Liquid Breast Enhancement Blend. Once you are done your 10 weeks and your boyfriend is home, you can drink the tea and add the blend to any drink without "Brava Worries". Once you feel comfortable, go another 10 weeks with your brava. Even continue with Greenbush and Brava if you like. Thats what I plan to do.
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 5:57 PM
Thanks so much for your inspiratio, Nyah.
I didn't see the testimony on the Brava site of the woman who went almost a year. Is that the US brava site? Can you post a link to where you saw that? I would love to read it.
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Link for Roakie March 21 2009, 7:22 PM
Hi Roakie,
The link is below, and yes this was found on the USA Brava page. I was mistaken, the woman said she was a slow producer even though she has children. Read her testimony because I think your results could be quite simular. What part of the world are you from??
http://www.mybrava.com/story-cheryl.asp
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 9:59 PM
That story certainly does give me hope. The main difference is that I didn't (and still don't) have enough breast tissue to have a mammogram! I have never had one because there is nothing there to compress! It would have been absolutely impossible to do one, so maybe in the future that is what I will have to look forward to.
I am from the U.S., but I had just not seen that part of the Brava site before. I sure hope that I have enough hidden fat cells somewhere in my flat boobs to start enlarging and replicating! In five more weeks I will have done half a year, and if I don't reach my "this is how big I always wanted to be" point......then what???
I wonder how much of a "rest" is recommended before started round 2. Do you know?
Edit Message Delete Message
CousinRose
(Login CousinRose) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 22 2009, 12:02 AM
Hey Roakie, I remember reading you should rest for 3 months before starting a new cycle.
Rose
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roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 22 2009, 4:34 AM
Thanks, cousin rose. Aren't you nearing the end of your 12 weeks? I am so anxious to find out how much you retain! I have high hopes for you!
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CousinRose
(Login CousinRose) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 22 2009, 10:27 AM
Thanks Roakie I have 5 days left to finish my 12 weeks! But I might try to even out my breasts and wear it maybe week longer on my smaller one. I will post my results as soon as I finish!
March 18 2009 at 6:27 PM molehills (no login)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, just wondering if any of you out there who have finished using Brava for an extended period of time could update us with your long-term results...
did you get permanent growth? How much?
Thanks!
Author Reply
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 18 2009, 8:23 PM
Hi, Molehills.
Since most Brava graduates seem to disappear from this board over time, I have had my best information by reading through all the past pages on this forum. They go all the way back to 2006. It seems some people experienced no growth, even after a full year of use, while others increased over a cup.
I haven't graduated yet. I have half a year to go. I started with nothing so I imagine it will take me that long just to get to a AA!
Edit Message Delete Message
molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 18 2009, 10:02 PM
Hi Roakie
yeah, I read back to some of the old posts...I was hoping maybe some of those former posters (or lurkers who did Brava and never posted) might see this and give us a longer perspective on the process...I mean after they had actually stopped for a good while...but you're probably right, I'm sure they've gone on to better things!
It does give me pause to think it just might not work very much in some cases in the long-term...but I decided at the outset that I'll be happy even with just some more fullness (although I can't help starting to want the size of the swelling I see when I take off the domes.
Still, less sag and more roundness on top would be great (instead of the ski jump look ), and that seems achievable. I'm continuing to take some herbs/oils which I hope will help, and protein drinks and collagen for building tissue. I may also try the Ro-bust cream...can't hurt, right? Attack on all fronts...Your perseverance is inspiring and I hope we all meet our goals!!!
Edit Message Delete Message
zuzuzu
(no login) I have used brava, 3 cycles March 19 2009, 4:54 AM
I used brava about 4 years ago.Started with 32 b and wore brava for 5 months average 15 hours a day.I increased my size one cup up but 1 month after stopping brava that one cup increase had changed to may be 1/4 th increase.I did another cycle in couple of months and then 3rd cycle after a break of few months again.This all happened 4 years ago.Then I was soo tierd of using brava and missing on comfortable good night sleep that I just packed it away.Now my size is32 c.Better than what i had before brava use.If I calculate altogether,I used brava for 11 months.I am still in search of some mehtod that does not involve any pill intake or things like brava that had killed my social and family life for nearly a year.Still I should not complain because I got atleast one inch growth in exchange of 1 year of comfort.
Edit Message Delete Message
molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 19 2009, 1:36 PM
thanks for responding, zuzuzu! That's encouraging for me...I would be thrilled to gain a permanent cup size out of this. It sounds like it's necessary to do more than one cycle though...I'm willing at this point but I don't know how I'll feel after 10 weeks
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Got my $1600 worth and still investing March 19 2009, 11:08 PM
I've been using the brava system since june 2008. I miseed 2-3 days during my first five weeks. I had a death in the family, so I gave it up for a month. I then tried again early august. I stopped 2 weeks just before Xmas 2008. I started with 33 inches which made me a 34 AAA. After the program (post one month) I measured 35inches, finally a full 34A. This is my second session, I began the first week of January.... I missed about 2 days, but I will be done in 2 weeks. My goal is to be a full 34B or small C by my birthday in August. I know it can happen.
Here is the secret with brava..... YOU CAN NOT MISS A DAY!!! If you miss 3 days with the Brava, you just screwed yourself 2 extra weeks on the system. Commitment is the KEY WORD. They explain all this when you order.
Also, understand the timeline to achieve your goal. I'm an African American woman under 30 with no children and a minimum amount of tight breast tissue. I knew it would take me forever...lol, it was in the maunal. If I were a Caucacian woman with a saggy 36 B-cup post breast feeding, I would have seen a cup increase within the 10 week session.
I dont think that some of the woman using the brava (and post or respond to reviews) are being realistic or totally honest about their usage on the system. Bottom line, if you use the system for 15hrs a day for 3 weeks, miss a day one week, wear it for another week, then miss 2 more days, you are not going to be happy.
My Boyfriend was very supportive at first. For him, excitment for bigger breast lasted about 3 months. He then complained about my obsession with the brava. He missed being able to hold me while sleeping. I normally sleep away as many Brava hours as possible,lol. Just last week we were looking at pictures of me on his PC. We came across some naughty ones (ha ha, me topless).We now have concrete evidence! He couldn't stop talking about how much fuller they had be come. More GIRTH was the word used. I think he might be a bit more supportive for now on.
Good luck to all Brava Women!!!!!
Edit Message Delete Message
molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 20 2009, 1:49 PM
thank you so much for that advice Nyah...I'm really glad it worked for you...wow, you grew two inches. That seems more than average, isn't it?
I'm only near the end of my third week and not really retaining anything yet, though I thought I was before. It makes me wonder, if I am not retaining anything by 5 weeks then I won't have much to show by 10 weeks, which is all I can do it this time around...
How long was it before you started retaining anything at the end of the day?
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Best not to stop at 10 weeks March 21 2009, 12:41 AM
Well Molehills, it takes time. In the manual it states that you only truly experince some growth during the 6-10 weeks. That means that your body needs time to recongnize foriegn activity (daily suction and swelling), find a solution, (create new tissue), then solve it, (daily deposits of new tissue).
So if your body takes 3 weeks to realize a continuos problem, you may begin to see or maintain growth at 1cc a day. By week 5, thats about 14cc. So at 10 weeks you've grown 42cc. Thats not even 1/2 a cup size. However if you continue past the 10 and do 20 weeks, you better your results with 110cc or more. Mind you, I'm no doctor.... this is just how I've anaylized it.
I don't know if you are athletic or thin, and perhaps are young and have no children. But all the above and any particular one of the above will challenge your progress...lol. I've noticed with all natrual breast enhancement (including devices) the woman that claim to see immediate or impressive results had sagging A-C cups from breast feeding and/or weight loss.
I can't remember what week I retained growth. Remember I started, then stopped after 5 weeks, then started again a few weeks later. My body may have responded slightly sooner the 2nd time around giving me a 34A. Shadowing was what convinced me. I took pics all the time and I noticed more shadowing of the breasts towards the end of the session.
I've got 2 1/2 more weeks before I complete 10 weeks for the 2nd time. I measure 35 1/2 inches before I wear the device as of today. I pray to have 36 inches (34B) by the end of 10 weeks but I don't plan to stop there. I want to continue wear as long as I can at 10hrs a day, my goal is 37 inches(34C).
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 12:49 AM
Hi, Nyah!
It's great to have you here! I have a question for you. I am in the midst of week 20, and started off totally flat-chested. I have nursed three children and am past menopause, so my skin does stretch more readily than those who have never nursed. But, I have always been thin and I have no fat in my breasts other than when I was pregnant.
With that said, I have only started to retain about a half and inch after 10 hours with the domes off. I can feel a little bit of "heft" to my breast and I can see a clearer "shadow" underneath, as you have said. But, I also have very large pectoral muscles from the domes (average 14/hours per day with no missed days) and I question whether the large muscles are given my breasts a greater measurement than they would, otherwise (hence, the half inch of extra "growth")
I plan to go as long as 50 weeks to see where I get! Do you think that is too long without taking a break? My fear is, when I do take a break, is that I have nothing but bones on my chest. I am getting more fearful and feel that I should keep going for quite a long time longer before taking some time off.
You said you plan to keep going longer this time around. How long do you envision that would be for you?
Edit Message Delete Message
molehills
(no login) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 3:04 AM
Nyah, your analysis makes sense to me. I would go longer but my bf is supposed to be coming back from overseas at the end of the 10 weeks, so I'll have to stop there. When he leaves again I'll start another cycle though. From reading other posts it seems like the women who had success all did it for a pretty long time, much longer than what Brava claims. Long hours seem to make a big difference too.
I'm in my late 40s, no children, but I used to have implants which I had removed about 10 years ago. So I guess my skin got stretched already from that... which might help.
It's good to hear about real success, makes it seem worth putting the effort in. I know everyone probably responds differently, but at least there's hope. Right now I'll be happy if I have a half cup size of fullness after the 10 weeks.
Good luck to us all...
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Brava and Greenbush March 21 2009, 9:24 AM
Thanks for welcoming me Ladies!!!!
Roakie,
I don't think that 50 weeks is too long (remember the testimony of the woman who went 40+ weeks). The woman on the Brava site said it almost took her a year to achieve a B cup. She was very thin framed and never had children. Perhaps in your case, you have the skin envelope from children..... but just need some help with fat tissue. Thats all breasts are anyway...lol.
In January I became a vegetarian, and added lots of soy to my diet. I also ordered Greenbush liquid breast enhancement blend and the tea. I've been browsing through this forum for a few months now. I've learned that there can be lasting results with herbs and massage (about 1/2 or 1 cup increase). So I figured Brava, Soy, Herbs and Massage!!!!
Brava can be the foundation, the Soy I view as the breast fat booster, and the greenbush blend and tea as the puberty punch!! Once I finish the 10 weeks, I plan to order the large/wide domes, then go another 10 weeks while taking the liquid blend and tea. I picked the liquid because you can add it to anything including lotion for massage. I talked to the Brava coach and she said there was nothing wrong with adding soy and herbs to my Brava Program.
I want to stop for awhile in July to enjoy the summer and my birthday. After that I will follow with about 4 months of herbs, tea and massage. The massage and heating pad with Greenbush herbs is alittle much in combination with the Brava. I will only do a herbal massage during post brava 10+ week sessions. The Soy and Herbs I hope to serve as a back up for missed brava days and/or speed up the process of growth.
Molehill,
I would try the Greenbush Liquid Breast Enhancement Blend. Once you are done your 10 weeks and your boyfriend is home, you can drink the tea and add the blend to any drink without "Brava Worries". Once you feel comfortable, go another 10 weeks with your brava. Even continue with Greenbush and Brava if you like. Thats what I plan to do.
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 5:57 PM
Thanks so much for your inspiratio, Nyah.
I didn't see the testimony on the Brava site of the woman who went almost a year. Is that the US brava site? Can you post a link to where you saw that? I would love to read it.
Edit Message Delete Message
Nyah
(no login) Link for Roakie March 21 2009, 7:22 PM
Hi Roakie,
The link is below, and yes this was found on the USA Brava page. I was mistaken, the woman said she was a slow producer even though she has children. Read her testimony because I think your results could be quite simular. What part of the world are you from??
http://www.mybrava.com/story-cheryl.asp
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 21 2009, 9:59 PM
That story certainly does give me hope. The main difference is that I didn't (and still don't) have enough breast tissue to have a mammogram! I have never had one because there is nothing there to compress! It would have been absolutely impossible to do one, so maybe in the future that is what I will have to look forward to.
I am from the U.S., but I had just not seen that part of the Brava site before. I sure hope that I have enough hidden fat cells somewhere in my flat boobs to start enlarging and replicating! In five more weeks I will have done half a year, and if I don't reach my "this is how big I always wanted to be" point......then what???
I wonder how much of a "rest" is recommended before started round 2. Do you know?
Edit Message Delete Message
CousinRose
(Login CousinRose) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 22 2009, 12:02 AM
Hey Roakie, I remember reading you should rest for 3 months before starting a new cycle.
Rose
Edit Message Delete Message
roakie
(Login roakie)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 22 2009, 4:34 AM
Thanks, cousin rose. Aren't you nearing the end of your 12 weeks? I am so anxious to find out how much you retain! I have high hopes for you!
Edit Message Delete Message
CousinRose
(Login CousinRose) Re: Brava graduates: how much did you retain over time? March 22 2009, 10:27 AM
Thanks Roakie
I have 5 days left to finish my 12 weeks! But I might try to even out my breasts and wear it maybe week longer on my smaller one. I will post my results as soon as I finish!