Believe me, I am far more sick of this thread and the other one than any of you. But I made a promise to write this and I have not had much time to do it, but here it is.
I am going to write this out in the detail that I think best answers the questions and no more. I am not going to elaborate except in a few places that I remember saying that I would. This is not an attempt to confuse or mislead in any way. If you want more detail on a point, please bring it up.
This is not in any particular order:
Some of my basic beliefs and thoughts. If you want to know how my mind ticks, this is it.
1. Every question has a correct factual answer(s), all others are incorrect answers.
On Grey area - we may not always know what the correct answer is, but it exists. We just need to discover it. Identifying the unknown is the first step, not the end result.
2. Where two or more things conflict, at least one is incorrect/wrong/false, possibly all.
3. In the context of good vs. evil, right and wrong exist and are constant, not variable. Right and wrong in this context are ultimately defined by God, not people. (Don’t want to start Bible thumping here, just presenting reality,)
4. In the context of human relations, if one person presents an argument or statement that they have proven as fact to themselves, it is perfectly acceptable to talk about it as fact to others whether or not others have proven/disproven the point.
Again, if you want me to elaborate, just ask. I see these as pretty bullet proof. I am interested in any flaws that anyone can find. Feel free to poke holes. It makes my process better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On Prejudice:
Definitions from a standard English dictionary:
PREJUDICE
http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/prejudice
“2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics”
Can we agree on this definition?
I am now underlining phrases that sometimes get ignored.
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
PRECONCEIVED
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preconceived
“: to form (as an opinion) prior to actual knowledge or experience”
IRRATIONAL
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrational
: not rational: as a (1) : not endowed with reason or understanding (2) : lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence b : not governed by or according to reason …(The rest of the definition does not apply. Please read it if you want more information.)
Prejudice real prejudice, not imaginary prejudice, means to prejudge something like a person or an idea before understanding the person or idea.
Statement: I oppose the GLBT lifestyle and agenda. In a choice between moral and immoral, I find the GLBT lifestyle and agenda to be immoral.
Am I prejudiced?
If you said “yes”, you have committed an act of prejudice.
If you said “no”, you have committed an act of prejudice.
If you said “well, let’s find out why he thinks that” then you have not committed an act of prejudice.
The real answer is….I am not prejudice. This is not an attempt at sophistry or to confuse. If you find it so, please ask.
There are conditions where, due to a birth defect for example, someone is born as an aphrodite [correction, hermaphrodite] as Anastasia pointed out. In this and other similar conditions, where the individual has absolutely no control over the situation, are understandable. But that is not the same as choosing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Questions in order from “Do you think prejudiced people should be allowed on this forum?” starting from Post 19:
Anastasia26 >>” So why try to say your opinions to you are fact when you can not show ANY evidence that they are fact?”
Why don’t we start with the quote you are talking about. I said “I see this as fact, not opinion.” This was the end of a paragraph that said “Simply put, men who want to grow breasts on themselves are suffering from an instability (be it a disorder or morally originated) which is agitated by moral relativism. Some things are a moral question and some are not. This is one that is.” When I said instability, I meant REAL instability, not some kind on insult. When I said moral instability for the rest, it is a fact. I could show it in biblical scriptures but as I said, I don’t want to start a Bible thumping war. For people who do not believe that the Bible is a true book, I cannot help that.
While I am on the subject, I asked for women who had children to respond. As expected, the answer was almost none. This is really one that deserves needs its own thread in another forum. I really think that the women currently on this board would not be interested. But, so you know what I was thinking, here it is extremely condensed: In the U.S. since the 60’s but especially since about 1990, there has been an agenda on the part of gays to indoctrinate children that homosexuality is just as valid as heterosexuality. I won’t go into the tactics they have used here, but it is very very opposed by the mothers and fathers of children attending public schools. That’s all I am going to say about it. If you want to discuss this, which I doubt, then please start a new thread.
Bibi33 >> ‘"Okay everyone, I think Wahaika is taking us on the strategy of "if you have attacked them and they responded defending themselves, make them feel guilty". This is some variety of the whole "women who get raped had it coming to them because of their behaviour/ignorance" blabla.’
This may be the most irresponsible statement I have ever read.
Anastasia34 >> “... I did not demand that Majestic leave or other prejudiced people, I said they should if they don't like it here, where in my statements did I DEMAND them to leave??? That's what I want to know from Wahaika..”
I’m sorry. I read and reread post 19 and I don’t see it. Where did I say that you demanded that people leave? I’m serious. Please provide a reference to the post you are talking about.
Anastasia34 >>” Bibi, HAHAHA I agree with you completely, and that's the point I have been trying to get across, but he blatantly ignores my logical points, or twists them and tries to confuse us into believing what he says makes more sense. I might not have the biggest vocabulary, I might not be a scholar, but I have a high IQ and I have alot of common sense, so will take alot more than that to confuse me and persuade me.”
AGAIN, where? Please provide an example. I have looked and looked and I don’t see any sign of this. Where have I ever, EVER “blatantly” ignored your logical points, or twisted them, or tried to confuse anyone?
And, may I be so bold to ask how making sense is the same thing as trying to confuse someone? Excuse me, but now you are not making sense. And remember, Post 19 was meant to be humorous. Did you read the title of your poll?
Wahaika41>>"My opinion that Eve's board should be 100% female comes from a time when it was 100% female. To the best of my knowledge, I was the first male on the board. (I could be wrong about that.) See this message from February 2007:
http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1905
Anastasia42>>” Wahaika, interesting, so you post a link to a thread on the BE board, but you don't actually read it yourself first! It said there were males already on Eve's forum who are looking to grow breasts themselves, so I have to wonder, if you think it's immoral then why even come on Eve's forum?”
Because I was invited. Also, where did I say that it was immoral for men to be on Eve’s forum? You are really racking up the misquotes here.
Also, there is more to this that you do not know because you are a relative newcomer. I was already a member of the forum. I remember chiming in on a conversation about creating a board for the males to move to to get them off of the women’s site because of already stated reasons at that time. This conversation was earlier than what you saw. I think I found it. Here it is: (I am not the one who started the thread.)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...lease+read
By the time of the thread that you saw, the male board had already been added to the forum. I think that was about the time that I quietly went away. So the board I was referring to here was not the entire forum, but the main board.
« Reply #4 on Feb 5, 2007, 9:37pm » Interesting. I didn't know that. Are they on for themselves or for their spouses? I noticed that Eve added a board for males trying to grow them themselves.
Anastasia42>>” Saying I support an immoral lifestyle as opposed to a moral one is all opinion, please state that it's your opinion instead of portraying it as fact.”
Please point me to where I said that you support an immoral lifestyle. I don’t remember ever saying that.
>>” Morals are beliefs of what is right, beliefs are opinion, not fact.”
OK. Here is one problem. We don’t have the same standard of conduct that drives our morals. Very interesting. Ok. My mistake. Thank you for pointing that out. However, I would also point out that there are some morals that we should have in common. “Thou shalt not kill” comes to mind. This is an extreme example, but it definitely applies. Or at least it should apply. The same goes with other laws/commandments/judgments that God has stated. On those that are clearly spelled out, I would expect that we have them in common and that violation of them would constitute an immorality. Again, I am not trying to be confusing. To me this is obvious. So, in this case, for either of us to say that something is immoral on a topic that our moral standards are expected to be in common, should be no surprise and require no backlash from the other. Would you agree? I would take this one step further and make the equally obvious connection that on those things that are lined out by God, morality is not relative. Do you agree with that also? (I’m not citing any particular religion here, just making the point that God is who He is, and what he says goes. On that I expect that we should agree.)
>>” So I understand you think it's immoral for a man to become a woman and/or grow breasts.”
Correct. There are probably exceptions to every rule, but in the context of this board, yes.
>>”But don't you realize that some women on this forum might view you as even stranger than a male growing breasts to be on here?”
You can’t possibly be trying to compare the two. Who is trying to twist things now?
But since you bring it up, yes, that is a concern that I have always had. But you have not brought up the other side of that coin. Many other women have felt the exact opposite over the years. I have many years of messages and personal mail messages to convince me that it’s not a big problem I didn’t notice it until writing this to you, but one of the benefits of starting that archival site (that’s right, it is not a board like this one, or to replace this one) is that any women who ask a question there know that I’m serious about helping if I can, otherwise they would not be there.
Anastasia50>>” And again a question in which would make you look like a hypocrite you ignore, I said it at least twice... why did you even come on Eve's forum knowing there are transgenders and other born males here growing breasts if you are so against it?”
First, I’m not trying to ignore it. You are dead wrong about that, again. I answered this above.
>>” And yes, judging someone based on race, gender, sexual orientation, culture, religion, etc. IS prejudiced, and YOU ARE PREJUDICED, accept it.”
If you had used the word “prejudging” I would agree with you, but that is not the case. I am not prejudiced. To arrive at a conclusion objectively after studying the subject, and then upholding that conclusion based on the previous information obtained, is not prejudging and is therefore not prejudice.
Now in the other thread……..
>>” Just because you think something is wrong does not make it fact.”
I totally agree. The little problem with your logic is that I don’t base right and wrong on what I decide it is. The same applies to you. Just because you think something is OK does not make it so. On what do we base the correct answer?
Hazel39>>” Wahaika, I have one question. How does attacking someone who is attacking people just for being male/transexual compare to attacking people just for being male/transexual?
Very good question! Because you are really attacking someone for their beliefs, and are demanding, as they are, for them to get off the board.
>>” It's like saying the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis for attacking them.
Anastasia22(this thread) >>” Being prejudiced and me not agreeing with you does not make me prejudiced, that's just stupid, makes no logical sense. That's like a Nazi and a Jew arguing. The Jew calls the Nazi a prejudiced person, then the Nazi says, oh yea? Well you're prejudiced for calling me prejudiced. Doesn't make much sense does it?”
Comparing this to Naziism is definitely wrong, but if I can, may I reassign the titles?
Nazis = Assailants = Wahaika
Jews = Victims = Gays and all on the road that lead to it.
Allies = Protectors = Women (real ones)
I disagree with this. Gays intentionally maneuvered themselves into a victim role (going back to an interview with the main gay activist from back then – can’t remember his name at the moment) in order to gain acceptance. The truth is that they are assailants. In education, I have seen studies that showed that group many times higher percentage of those who molested school children. They are also, as a group, many times higher percentage of carrying diseases. They are passed from one sex to another by those who are bisexual. Again, this is really for another thread on another board, but my purpose in writing this is to show that they are not victims, but assailants. In the context of this board, many women could, and have, mistaked them for women in obtaining advice on what to do for themselves. The end result is a lot of confusion and loss of time and money for the women who are receiving bad information. I have hit on this point for YEARS. Is is no secret. It is not new. Gays are not in the victim group. They are in the assailant group.
Roseability45>>” What I want to know is how you can back up removing males from the board yet continue to post here yourself?”
I think I already answered this. Can you be more specific?
OK, I’m done with this thread. Now I have a nice long list of women who I know will not welcome my opinion on their programs. Don't bother responding, I already know what you are going to write. Don't waste your time.
I am going to write this out in the detail that I think best answers the questions and no more. I am not going to elaborate except in a few places that I remember saying that I would. This is not an attempt to confuse or mislead in any way. If you want more detail on a point, please bring it up.
This is not in any particular order:
Some of my basic beliefs and thoughts. If you want to know how my mind ticks, this is it.
1. Every question has a correct factual answer(s), all others are incorrect answers.
On Grey area - we may not always know what the correct answer is, but it exists. We just need to discover it. Identifying the unknown is the first step, not the end result.
2. Where two or more things conflict, at least one is incorrect/wrong/false, possibly all.
3. In the context of good vs. evil, right and wrong exist and are constant, not variable. Right and wrong in this context are ultimately defined by God, not people. (Don’t want to start Bible thumping here, just presenting reality,)
4. In the context of human relations, if one person presents an argument or statement that they have proven as fact to themselves, it is perfectly acceptable to talk about it as fact to others whether or not others have proven/disproven the point.
Again, if you want me to elaborate, just ask. I see these as pretty bullet proof. I am interested in any flaws that anyone can find. Feel free to poke holes. It makes my process better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On Prejudice:
Definitions from a standard English dictionary:
PREJUDICE
http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/prejudice
“2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics”
Can we agree on this definition?
I am now underlining phrases that sometimes get ignored.
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
PRECONCEIVED
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preconceived
“: to form (as an opinion) prior to actual knowledge or experience
IRRATIONAL
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irrational
: not rational: as a (1) : not endowed with reason or understanding (2) : lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence b : not governed by or according to reason
Prejudice real prejudice, not imaginary prejudice, means to prejudge something like a person or an idea before understanding the person or idea.
Statement: I oppose the GLBT lifestyle and agenda. In a choice between moral and immoral, I find the GLBT lifestyle and agenda to be immoral.
Am I prejudiced?
If you said “yes”, you have committed an act of prejudice.
If you said “no”, you have committed an act of prejudice.
If you said “well, let’s find out why he thinks that” then you have not committed an act of prejudice.
The real answer is….I am not prejudice. This is not an attempt at sophistry or to confuse. If you find it so, please ask.
There are conditions where, due to a birth defect for example, someone is born as an aphrodite [correction, hermaphrodite] as Anastasia pointed out. In this and other similar conditions, where the individual has absolutely no control over the situation, are understandable. But that is not the same as choosing it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Questions in order from “Do you think prejudiced people should be allowed on this forum?” starting from Post 19:
Anastasia26 >>” So why try to say your opinions to you are fact when you can not show ANY evidence that they are fact?”
Why don’t we start with the quote you are talking about. I said “I see this as fact, not opinion.” This was the end of a paragraph that said “Simply put, men who want to grow breasts on themselves are suffering from an instability (be it a disorder or morally originated) which is agitated by moral relativism. Some things are a moral question and some are not. This is one that is.” When I said instability, I meant REAL instability, not some kind on insult. When I said moral instability for the rest, it is a fact. I could show it in biblical scriptures but as I said, I don’t want to start a Bible thumping war. For people who do not believe that the Bible is a true book, I cannot help that.
While I am on the subject, I asked for women who had children to respond. As expected, the answer was almost none. This is really one that deserves needs its own thread in another forum. I really think that the women currently on this board would not be interested. But, so you know what I was thinking, here it is extremely condensed: In the U.S. since the 60’s but especially since about 1990, there has been an agenda on the part of gays to indoctrinate children that homosexuality is just as valid as heterosexuality. I won’t go into the tactics they have used here, but it is very very opposed by the mothers and fathers of children attending public schools. That’s all I am going to say about it. If you want to discuss this, which I doubt, then please start a new thread.
Bibi33 >> ‘"Okay everyone, I think Wahaika is taking us on the strategy of "if you have attacked them and they responded defending themselves, make them feel guilty". This is some variety of the whole "women who get raped had it coming to them because of their behaviour/ignorance" blabla.’
This may be the most irresponsible statement I have ever read.
Anastasia34 >> “... I did not demand that Majestic leave or other prejudiced people, I said they should if they don't like it here, where in my statements did I DEMAND them to leave??? That's what I want to know from Wahaika..”
I’m sorry. I read and reread post 19 and I don’t see it. Where did I say that you demanded that people leave? I’m serious. Please provide a reference to the post you are talking about.
Anastasia34 >>” Bibi, HAHAHA I agree with you completely, and that's the point I have been trying to get across, but he blatantly ignores my logical points, or twists them and tries to confuse us into believing what he says makes more sense. I might not have the biggest vocabulary, I might not be a scholar, but I have a high IQ and I have alot of common sense, so will take alot more than that to confuse me and persuade me.”
AGAIN, where? Please provide an example. I have looked and looked and I don’t see any sign of this. Where have I ever, EVER “blatantly” ignored your logical points, or twisted them, or tried to confuse anyone?
And, may I be so bold to ask how making sense is the same thing as trying to confuse someone? Excuse me, but now you are not making sense. And remember, Post 19 was meant to be humorous. Did you read the title of your poll?
Wahaika41>>"My opinion that Eve's board should be 100% female comes from a time when it was 100% female. To the best of my knowledge, I was the first male on the board. (I could be wrong about that.) See this message from February 2007:
http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1905
Anastasia42>>” Wahaika, interesting, so you post a link to a thread on the BE board, but you don't actually read it yourself first! It said there were males already on Eve's forum who are looking to grow breasts themselves, so I have to wonder, if you think it's immoral then why even come on Eve's forum?”
Because I was invited. Also, where did I say that it was immoral for men to be on Eve’s forum? You are really racking up the misquotes here.
Also, there is more to this that you do not know because you are a relative newcomer. I was already a member of the forum. I remember chiming in on a conversation about creating a board for the males to move to to get them off of the women’s site because of already stated reasons at that time. This conversation was earlier than what you saw. I think I found it. Here it is: (I am not the one who started the thread.)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...lease+read
By the time of the thread that you saw, the male board had already been added to the forum. I think that was about the time that I quietly went away. So the board I was referring to here was not the entire forum, but the main board.
« Reply #4 on Feb 5, 2007, 9:37pm » Interesting. I didn't know that. Are they on for themselves or for their spouses? I noticed that Eve added a board for males trying to grow them themselves.
Anastasia42>>” Saying I support an immoral lifestyle as opposed to a moral one is all opinion, please state that it's your opinion instead of portraying it as fact.”
Please point me to where I said that you support an immoral lifestyle. I don’t remember ever saying that.
>>” Morals are beliefs of what is right, beliefs are opinion, not fact.”
OK. Here is one problem. We don’t have the same standard of conduct that drives our morals. Very interesting. Ok. My mistake. Thank you for pointing that out. However, I would also point out that there are some morals that we should have in common. “Thou shalt not kill” comes to mind. This is an extreme example, but it definitely applies. Or at least it should apply. The same goes with other laws/commandments/judgments that God has stated. On those that are clearly spelled out, I would expect that we have them in common and that violation of them would constitute an immorality. Again, I am not trying to be confusing. To me this is obvious. So, in this case, for either of us to say that something is immoral on a topic that our moral standards are expected to be in common, should be no surprise and require no backlash from the other. Would you agree? I would take this one step further and make the equally obvious connection that on those things that are lined out by God, morality is not relative. Do you agree with that also? (I’m not citing any particular religion here, just making the point that God is who He is, and what he says goes. On that I expect that we should agree.)
>>” So I understand you think it's immoral for a man to become a woman and/or grow breasts.”
Correct. There are probably exceptions to every rule, but in the context of this board, yes.
>>”But don't you realize that some women on this forum might view you as even stranger than a male growing breasts to be on here?”
You can’t possibly be trying to compare the two. Who is trying to twist things now?
But since you bring it up, yes, that is a concern that I have always had. But you have not brought up the other side of that coin. Many other women have felt the exact opposite over the years. I have many years of messages and personal mail messages to convince me that it’s not a big problem I didn’t notice it until writing this to you, but one of the benefits of starting that archival site (that’s right, it is not a board like this one, or to replace this one) is that any women who ask a question there know that I’m serious about helping if I can, otherwise they would not be there.
Anastasia50>>” And again a question in which would make you look like a hypocrite you ignore, I said it at least twice... why did you even come on Eve's forum knowing there are transgenders and other born males here growing breasts if you are so against it?”
First, I’m not trying to ignore it. You are dead wrong about that, again. I answered this above.
>>” And yes, judging someone based on race, gender, sexual orientation, culture, religion, etc. IS prejudiced, and YOU ARE PREJUDICED, accept it.”
If you had used the word “prejudging” I would agree with you, but that is not the case. I am not prejudiced. To arrive at a conclusion objectively after studying the subject, and then upholding that conclusion based on the previous information obtained, is not prejudging and is therefore not prejudice.
Now in the other thread……..
>>” Just because you think something is wrong does not make it fact.”
I totally agree. The little problem with your logic is that I don’t base right and wrong on what I decide it is. The same applies to you. Just because you think something is OK does not make it so. On what do we base the correct answer?
Hazel39>>” Wahaika, I have one question. How does attacking someone who is attacking people just for being male/transexual compare to attacking people just for being male/transexual?
Very good question! Because you are really attacking someone for their beliefs, and are demanding, as they are, for them to get off the board.
>>” It's like saying the Allies were just as bad as the Nazis for attacking them.
Anastasia22(this thread) >>” Being prejudiced and me not agreeing with you does not make me prejudiced, that's just stupid, makes no logical sense. That's like a Nazi and a Jew arguing. The Jew calls the Nazi a prejudiced person, then the Nazi says, oh yea? Well you're prejudiced for calling me prejudiced. Doesn't make much sense does it?”
Comparing this to Naziism is definitely wrong, but if I can, may I reassign the titles?
Nazis = Assailants = Wahaika
Jews = Victims = Gays and all on the road that lead to it.
Allies = Protectors = Women (real ones)
I disagree with this. Gays intentionally maneuvered themselves into a victim role (going back to an interview with the main gay activist from back then – can’t remember his name at the moment) in order to gain acceptance. The truth is that they are assailants. In education, I have seen studies that showed that group many times higher percentage of those who molested school children. They are also, as a group, many times higher percentage of carrying diseases. They are passed from one sex to another by those who are bisexual. Again, this is really for another thread on another board, but my purpose in writing this is to show that they are not victims, but assailants. In the context of this board, many women could, and have, mistaked them for women in obtaining advice on what to do for themselves. The end result is a lot of confusion and loss of time and money for the women who are receiving bad information. I have hit on this point for YEARS. Is is no secret. It is not new. Gays are not in the victim group. They are in the assailant group.
Roseability45>>” What I want to know is how you can back up removing males from the board yet continue to post here yourself?”
I think I already answered this. Can you be more specific?
OK, I’m done with this thread. Now I have a nice long list of women who I know will not welcome my opinion on their programs. Don't bother responding, I already know what you are going to write. Don't waste your time.
![[Image: rotfl.gif]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/Wahaika/rotfl.gif)
