[Shifa]

Hi Bonny, I use a lot of fenugreek,licorice,spearmint and fann el teas, I’m on a good diet, I use igf1 pro-foods (proteins, meat, cheese, dried plums, seeds...) I tried massage (but I gave up). 
Nothing happens.
I gained weight to increase my breast size but i increased just inner thight fat (I had a thight gap, but not anymore...sigh) 
So..I planned to use bo but I m sooo afraid of it... 
what do u think about? 
I had a saliva test... good hormones and estro dominance, so, no herbs for me!

Hi AimDcups,
I can tell you what i found so far in my personal nbe journey and you can decide if it applies to you or take what you like from it.  
- I started with a pre-made blend 'Breast Actives' and did nothing for me, mind you that was the only thing i did or changed about my life. 
- I then used PM and it messed my cycle up, had spotting mid cycle and just after periods and well i hate periods/bleeding so i stopped that after about 3 months of trying different methods eg different doses, cycling, no cycling, it all ended up with spotting or heavy periods. I did my research before purchase and pretty sure i used a good 'genuine' brand but i guess you are at the mercy of that brand if they legitimate or not. 
- i then tried BO from Bountiful Breast; for 3 or 4 months, what it did was put on alot of weight on my thighs, bum and stomach area very fast, i did moderate exercise and ate pretty healthy i couldn't justify being overweight to get boobs and got really uncomfortable with the extra weight so stopped that and that was around the same time i found out about prions in glandular and that was enough to put the final nail in the coffin for my BO use. 
- i then tried doses of single herbs eg hops, red clover, fennel, fenugreek, not all at once but experiment with different amounts, different parts of cycle, different combinations but had little luck
- the whole time doing the above routines i massaged every day twice a day for 30-60mins total daily.
- i tried a few other well known herbal routines on BN and they didn't show any fruits for my labor. 

So i went back to the research, i went right through BN and found Lotus's threads and posts; and decided i will use Lotus' research to make a new 'herbal program' but also researched/questioned why larger chested women B cup+ find it easier to grow their breast vs someone like me that starts with very low breast tissue, as well as anything i learnt or stumbled on along the way. The second question is a little harder to determine, i suspect that it's to do with breast receptors in the existing breast tissue but other pointed out research where its said we all have the same amount? Also another idea i had is that maybe receptors attract or are sort of 'switched' on more in other parts of my body rather than in my breast eg. my lower half; thighs, bum and that's why my fat gains always went to those parts.  So with all this in mind...

Things i found along the way;
- Lotus pointed out over and over again the importance of lowering DHT, T's big brother - and not the T itself, if you read Lotus's comments then this is a very strong reoccurred theme (lowering DHT) and to do it in multiple ways there is not one pathway for T to convert into DHT there is many so use many things to stop as much as you can  Eg. Reishi, GT, PC, Omegas  (not SP)
- Armotase the Extra T, women dont need as much armotase supplements, as we do it naturally but WP would be L top pick according to comments
- Less is more, do not do large quantities of herbs; it's not needed and it desensitizes your receptors, studies show FG only needs to be around 600mg daily. This is where alot of people go wrong we thing more more more and it actually does the opposite it shuts your receptor off because the body is always trying to balance and too much of anything according to the body is not good so it switches receptors off to try to balance out. I think i repeated this mistake over and over again until my most recent program where i use the lowest amounts of herbs particularly phytoE herbs. And this is where i think particularly flat girls go wrong we have less 'active' receptors or whatever is going on with us (whatever theory you want to go by) and we over whelm them with large quantities of herbs or very strong herbs eg. PM and it just makes us stall.
- Nutritional herbs/supps; we need to think about how our food can help us along too.  Greentea is can help with DHT, Dandelion tea with receptors, coconut oil is an essential in my program, along with omegas (Inchi Oil) and staying away from things that may hinder eg. flaxseed (L research indicates no good for NBE, other may find different). Surfer Joe points out the importance of seeds and nuts, which i now firmly believe in and i include a few tablespoons of a nut and seed mix in my daily diet.  Along with particular nuts that are said to help with nbe. 
- as far a massage, so i think if you solely massage you may have great gains however if combination with a herbal program then it has been my personal experience that too much massage is counterproductive, now am not saying no massage am saying long periods of massage, i now only massage 5-10mins while rubbing my oils twice a day and then maybe once or twice a week i'll give my breast a deeper massage where i essential rub any 'knots' out, any tender spots. 
- i'd also like to point out the importance of prolactin, too much is not good however you need to increase it to have the fat store in the breast vs other areas, i would not recommend taking supplements for this as most of the ones that increase prolactin also decrease blood sugar and it makes you feels so sick (from experience), i would do it topically or by gentle tugging on the breast regularly through the day. 
- hgh (human growth hormone); if your younger not so much of a concern but the older you are the less you have; have decent sleep pattern, 12hr fasting, increase vitamin D levels, and creatine use are all said to help with hgh, as well as burst training (exercise done in short but intense fashion). 
- protein is not as important as fat, stay away from whey drinks they seem to just dump excess weight all over the place and too much protein is not good for you.  I am a plant & egg eater and i find plenty of protein in my everyday foods not to have to supplement so if you eating meat and having nuts then you'll have more then enough don't waste your money or calories on whey drinks, instead look at more fruit, vege, nuts and eggs (if you need to increase protein look to eggs). 
- Progestrone Cream (PC); now some freak about using PC cream however i have found it to be beneficial to me i use it in the luteal and i apply to my breast.  Now you make your own decisions about that, i researched outside BN and i read Lotus' comments about its use and decide it was ok for me.  You have to remember that different hormones do different things to breast eg. some help fat store in the breast, others grow the glands, others cause side branching of breast tissue. 
- Cycling is essential to herbal programs and probably others too; my thoughts are you need to mimic the cycle and what should be happening during that time and also work out at that point of time what is needed to grow breast.  Cycling also keeps the body guessing and stalling will be less likely. 

There is probably alot more i have forgotten but hopefully gives you some food for thought, this is what i've found for myself along the way and am no expert but it seems I've found a working program finally, albeit slow growth program but i think that's the key when your flat you really can't rush your growth it just doesn't work, maybe once i get to a solid B cup i could push it a little but for now i can see progress and so can my hubby he keeps commenting 'you've had some growth' or 'your boobs are looking good', my clothes fit and look better and my confidence is up, i don't go around hiding myself anymore and for me that's all it's ever been about, feeling comfortable.  It does take time though and you must be patience with your body and keep an open mind about your expectations, i don't measure anymore and i rarely take photos because i don't see any difference, i do my own measures of growth i place my hand under my breast flat on top of my rib cage my fingers pointing to my sternum and when i started nbe i could see my whole hand, every finger, now when i do it my first two fingers i can't see so i know i have had progress regardless of tape or photos results. 

In your case, i wouldn't do BO i think that you'll have the same experience as me when i put on weight it's always thighs and bum and man did BO stack it on there, plus am yet to find a fellow flat girl that has had any gains from it or to be honest anyone really alot of smoke and mirrors with BO.  If your worried about E dominance, i would maybe just play it safe and think about researching PC and/or vitex, once you get your E dom under control then consider adding E herbs however in low amounts. Work with what you know you have high E; therefore design a program where your not looking at E herbs think about how you can best use progesterone, it takes more Progesterone to grow breast then E we focus on E so much because it's what creates female characteristics but we need progesterone to grow breast if it was all about E then all women with E dom would have huge boobs so it's not just that! Also progesterone should help get your E dom under control and if you look into 'over dosing' on progesterone it's highly unlikely so pretty safe, i would cycle it but others do use it daily.  Have a look at increasing your nutrition eg. nuts, seeds and staying away from processed junk, i personally stay away from dairy and meat they are inflammation/acid causing foods and hard on digestion and many many other things (but as i said personal) but particularly look at good fats and then prolactin increase (not too much) to get that fat to store in breast.  Massage but not too much, i once read someone comment how some massage fatty areas to break up fat and get rid of it and i that's when i thought maybe too much massage when your small is counter productive, you need it for prolactin and blood circulation but keep it under 10mins. 

I think it's very hard to be in this modern world and not have E dom, it's all those nasty xenoestrogen that really stuff you up, everyone must really consider detoxing their homes and themselves of as much as possible for their health not just nbe.  The world of chemical free products has vastly improved since the beginning try swapping things out or asking do i really need this? You must think of your skin as an organ what chemicals you rub on it penetrates, what you breath eg. perfumes, deodorants, scented this or that goes in and are all chemicals, what you wash your clothes in, obviously, what you eat or better yet what you consumed has ate before its' death. We shouldn't fear phytoE or our own E as much as we should fear xenoE; now to be clear doesn't mean go crazy on herbs am simply pointing out that don't blame the phytoE for what in all likelyhood is xenoE that has caused E dominance. Eat organic as much as possible and pick supps that are as organic or clean as possible, i've recently read avoid supps from China and India because they are heavily contaminated. At the end of the day you as the best person to tell if something is good or bad for you so i suggest you follow your own instincts.  Don't blindly follow others, research and research some more and some may say don't do this or that, but as i said you are your own person and sometimes we have to try to stuff to see if it works. 

As i always say i am not telling anyone what to do and please always do your own research as i only know what i've found to work or not work for me and on the scale of everything nbe i know very little and what i do know i've simply collected along the way.  So please please always be safe and always check things you read before committing to them.

Thanks alot!!
Pretty useful words!
Hugs amd happy growing