[Raquerta]

Well done Bonny! 
I d write your same info! 

I suggest anti-androgen, weight gain(if very skinny) BUT ALSO BOVINE OVARY, the reason is: it’s not like to put estrogens in your body, BO will reset your body, if a man takes BO gian penis shrink, his hair fade away, his fat distribution become feminine... And a man cant go back from this. It’s anti androgen BUT also an hormonal change. 

I learn just a thing from this NBE forum and my information about liposuction (years before, because I hate implants and very heavy boobs, but also pear shaped body, I studied about liposuction, this was to balance my body, that is my REAL aim) HORMONAL PROFILE IS WHAT LEADS YOU TO GAIN FAT IN SOME AREAS. 
So, if u are a pear shaped body, is useless to gain weight, you ll end with a big lower body but without boobs. 
If u are pear shaped, and you go to liposuction, when you gain weight you just re-gain your thights (BECAUSE OF HORMONES) 


Boobs are all about fat, not fat in general but fat in your chest. If u have the right “hormonal imbalance” all the fat you gain will go to your boobs. 
I lost 20 pounds, and before of it, I was an AA. So, it’s useless to me gain 20 pounds. 

It’s all to find this hormonal panel. 

PROLACTIN is good for NBE, but don’t forget that it inhibits your progesterone. 
Anyway, men on antipsychotic drugs (which increase prolactin) see an increase in boobs, permanent increase in boobs (well, for them it is an unwanted effect) I don’t know if this happens to girls. 
I read a lot of good things about goats rue, but i’m Not sure if it s permanet (a lot of info I have are about wemen with breast hypoplasia which can t brestfeed)

Thanks Cely.
Like i mentioned at start this is my experience so far and not 'the rules or science of NBE'. Plus we must remember that more often then not scientific findings dont aways correlate into the real world.

I am skinny and flat so weight gain has been extremely important for my nbe the other thing you touched is important too, its not so much the hormones that determine where fat will disperse but receptors hence why flat girls (who have less E receptors) will find extra fat will store in thighs, bum, hips where there are more e receptors. And no gaining weight if your a pear is totally wrong direction however perhaps increasing prolactin would be as the fat storage will be encouraged into breast. 

Alot of stuff is not permanent in nbe but overtime the swelling can be replaced by actual growth, look at noogleberry, same principle. 

I have read how magical BO is ment to be and went out and brought it but i disagree that its any good for flat girls, once again receptors, E receptors in breast can only take so much the rest is sent south. And i also read that BO is hard to know what hormones you are actually getting because it really depends when cow is slaughter eg. What part of cycle they were in, were they young or old, stressed, healthy or unhealthy you could be getting alot of progesterone if a bunch of old cows or whatever hormone been excreted at their death. I tried it high doses, low doses, cycling it (not recommended just own trial), all it did was dump weight all over my hips, bum and thighs and reallllly heavy periods in a short space of time, no good for me 'personally'. And am yet to find another girl in archives that was flat and had any growth from BO. Yes there are those have grown but they had breast tissue to begin makes huge difference, it seems fat is attracted to fat so i theorize thats why reasonable sized people can grow effortless. 

Just remember as the old saying goes 'there are many ways to skin a cat', nbe is far more complex then the science that is often brought up, our bodies are clearly smarter then we are and far more complex in its nature. And this forum is one of many regarding breast growth, the others have been deserted however they take a very different approach to nbe then this forum and would think some things we do as backwards thinking. Thats why we should be careful to express ourselves in a way that doesnt influences others right to be creative and try things that are not traditional on this site because on other old sites they are not that way out from their thinking. Eg. Unless something you said actually works and results in growth then its just an opinion doesn't matter where you read it. 

Just as all of above is my opinion.

Thank for your advice to me. I just noticed you felt fat is attracted to fat. The number of fat should not change after we grow up, and when we get fat, we actually just have bigger fat cells. That explains why B cup girls easily gain boobs, cos all the cell expansions add up to be a lot. But for us, since we are not increasing fat cells just expanding the volume, the effect is really limited. However I feel when treated with hormones, the number of fat or the distribution of fat can be changed as if we were teenagers. And researchers try to use fat cell division methods to increase the number of fat cells, as some non-hormone breast cream advertised. That method honestly sound more cancer-related to me than hormone, cos it encourages cell divisions. 

I wonder if breast pumps can actually increase number of fat cells, or just expand the size. If it's the latter, then of course they won't work well on us flat girls. I will use T decreasing products, cos it sounds to me the safest way. So many people block their DHT for hair growth don't have major health issue. And I recently do agree that smaller boobs have more clothes options. Big boobs look great in V neck and very tight clothes, but we can work with more styles. just add some necklaces for V neck.  At the end of the day, my bf stays, even tho he can date big boobs easily. Those help me not get depressed about boobs.

Thanks Bosekk
I get what your saying and i see science supports it (thread below), however my question is how the body chooses to store it? Why some have large breast while others stomachs, or others naturally athletic bodies. Again hormones and receptor locations must have a hand in it. The excess of hormones seems to dictate the direction fat will go (eg. Tummy  thighs, back) and storage depends on location of those hormone receptors. Geez i don't know lol over my head. 

Maybe those of us that were very slim in childhood are just destined to have small breast, because if fat cells are no longer able to be grown and only expand by volume then i can only expand on what i have. But there maybe hope because i was a chubby bubby hehe. 

I honestly can say while i respect science, and use it myself, its not the holy grail for me i believe that we can manifest changes whether that be our life circumstance or body, we have to ability to go outside the box if we believe we can. And often scientific findings can be limiting to my beliefs regarding change.  

Plus science changes there positions quite often on different things, proven findings now often change with future research. So i guess we have to remember this too, that findings might be 'mostly right', or 'right now' with what we currently know. 

One of my best tips is believe its truly is possible and think fondly of yourself, your body and breast. Negativity will only lead to unsuccessful outcomes.


https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080505/...8.800.html


Hormones responsible for storage in different area of body (interesting), if correct could help id high hormones.

https://www.sylviessuitcase.com/the-reas...ain-areas/

Great information. And yea receptors are the key I agree. And EllaC is my motivation too. Btw I hear when women get pregnant, they experience a lot of hormone changes, like a second chance to grow boobs. And some women choose not to breastfeeding to keep their boobs. Although I don't know if it works that way lol. I do hear from my friends that they grow from flat to B after giving birth.  

Anyways I actually did grow my boobs, from the flatest probably 73cm to now 80cm. So it's flat to a real A cup, with weight gain in my thighs and tummy. I want to gain some weight, cos my upper body is still very skinning man-like. Just not sure how my tummy will look like later... I am Asian, so I know a lot of Asian skills. Several pressure points works for getting boobs. For my personal experience the most effective one is the one point in the middle of your chest, in line with the nipples. Now when you press it ,it could hurt a bit, or you find it hard to breath. That's how I felt, and for me it hurt a lot, that I couldn't really press it directly. what I do is to use my knuckles to scratch the line between boobs. And after some days, if I press the pressure point, it doesn't hurt anymore.  The more you hurt, the more likely that there's some problems so you can correct it through massage. As for other pressure points, I don't feel a thing in the beginning, and they don't seem to work either. 

 If you want to learn more about pressure points that helped for boobs, I can collect the info and graphs later.  But this one is a very important one, cos it's a intersection of nerves and stuff.

Hi Bonny,

Thank you for the picture with the pressure point. That makes a LOT of sense that it will hurt...and if it hurts (as in: uncomfortable) then it is definitely a good sign that you’re “unblocking” something by pressing the pressure point. Wouldn’t you agree?

I have bookmarked your thread because of all of the great links Thank you for sharing!

[Bonny]

Ayurvedic Breast Massage

https://www.dermascope.com/search?lang=en&query=breast%20pressure%20points


Pressure points 

http://www.growbreastsnaturally.com/wp-c...68x300.png



I still advocate for breast massage, i know that some think it's not as important for breast growth however there are a few women that grew from massage alone.  
My thoughts are its has several positive points and yes i think it can be over done (too much of anything is not good).  

I think it has such a strong positive affect on several levels
- helps with the mechanics and functioning of breast; drainage of unwanted nasties and fluids out of breast to lymphatic system and encourages circulation and new blood flow into breast.
- increase prolactin 
- it helps with body acceptance and self image 

The last point was the most game changing thing for myself; at first i hated massaging my breast as they were so small that i couldnt do many of the techniques described it wasnt physically possible to rotate my breast or cup my breast and it made me feel worst about my breast however i persisted and my hate was redirected to love because i eventually succumbed to the fact that without love they will not grow, nothing will grow under hateful conditions.  And i instead focused on being grateful for everything i had; realizing that life was about more then the size of my breast and the way i saw my body was all about me because no one else focused on it as much as me.  

Now am not going to say trying to improve the size and/or shape of your breast is vain or stupid; i think it is no different then those that spend time in the gym trying to improve their weight or muscle tone, or others that spend time and energy on hair, skin etc.  I think if you have the ability to improve something you are not happy with then go for it however remember to put everything in context; be reasonable with your expectations, celebrate every success no matter how small and don't let it become an obsession.  When we are long gone we will not be remembered for our appearance or our wealth and possessions we will be remembered for the being we were internally and how we expressed that externally.  

[Bonny]

Originally from here:
https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=29399&pid=204123#pid204123

Progesterone Cream

 Tbh am not sure if any hormonal testing is accurate because we have fluctuations throughout cycle of all hormones, so when would be the time to test? You'd really have to collect samples through a whole cycle to get a clear picture; or at best i guess they (doc/scientists/pathologist) could make some assumptions from a 'normal' base line cycle however am not sure anyone is 'normal'. Idk am really sceptical i think all hormonal test results need to used as a possible guide but not gospel?  

I did read i think above in this thread, that it can take 6-12mons to restore low progesterone levels so perhaps thats why you had not noted any changes but like you and article pointed out maybe it's more to do with application location, i know Lotus advocated for pc on breast but from memory every other day. Am yet to find any literature that talks of saturation, i think that has come up because progesterone is said to be fat soluble however aren't all hormones fat soluble and people apply PM, FG etc directly to breast daily? I still think you have to cycle because it stops down-regulations of receptors (when they think they have enough of said hormone so stop making receptors available). I think cycling will help avoid excess of hormones especially E, and from what i read it maybe hard to 'over do' pc. 

There other ways to increase progesterone eg vitex increases LH therefore progesterone and walnuts are said to increase progesterone however once again no literate to support these ideas. Pc scientifically does improve levels found in salvia but doesn't increase serum levels but what does this really mean who knows and most studies were short duration eg 3 months. But as you mentioned its possible it maybe staying localized to where its applied hence why you dont see serum levels change however you do see increase of progesterone in salvia obviously some process is happening that science cant figure out yet. 

It does make you really consider original link i posted about applying directly to breast because thats where receptors are, if blood levels dont improve from topical pc however thats where we're getting told to apply by manufacturers; is it even getting into blood stream seems only salvia levels raise not serum levels. Are we wasting it putting it on thin skin areas in hopes to get it into blood stream? Seems a little wasteful? 

 I did find this
 "Progesterone and Vitamin D. Numerous studies show that vitamin D and progesterone work in synergy. They “fight” abnormal or dangerously prolonged inflammation, especially in the brain, nervous system, and even the gut wall. Vitamin D deficiency or even insufficiency (you have low normal levels but not enough to protect you) has been demonstrated to cause and worsen progesterone signaling and block the body’s ability to use progesterone, even if it’s in normal levels in the bloodstream." 

From here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/medium.com/...2926ea9c84

Seems vitamin d is a big player i recently found studies that it works in synergy with igf too if levels are low in one it is in other too. 

Disclaimer  Like i always say am not giving advice to anyone and everyone needs to read and research their own choices, i simply regurgitate what ive read or found and hope it helps someone. But take what you find useful and forget the rest.

[Bonny]

IGF AND CREATINE

Sweetorange shared this elsewhere 

https://www.ironmanmagazine.com/the-crea...onnection/

Increasing igf could be done through creatine supplementation.

[Bonny]

Link between Vitamin D and IGF; seems they may work in synergy

https://www.medpagetoday.com/endocrinolo...logy/40932

https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/

"....The recommended daily allowance for Vitamin D is currently set at 400-800IU/day, but this is too low for adults. The safe upper limit in the United States and Canada is 4,000IU/day. Research suggests that the true safe upper limit is 10,000IU/day. For moderate supplementation, a 1,000-2,000IU dose of vitamin D3 is sufficient to meet the needs of most of the population. This is the lowest effective dose range. Higher doses, based on body weight, are in the range of 20-80IU/kg daily.
Vitamin D3 supplementation (cholecalciferol) is recommended over D2 supplementation (ergocalciferol), since D3 is used more effectively in the body.
Vitamin D should be taken daily, with meals or a source of fat, like fish oil....."

[EllaC]

It’s incredible how important D3 is! How’s this I live on the coast by the beach and go fishing so heaps of sun exposure BUT I’m vit D borderline deficient ! Crazy huh . And a study showed pretty much every woman with breast cancer had very low vit D levels!  Under the 50ng I think it’s measured by. 

If you go over the pathetic low rda of vit d you must also balance with vit K2 . Ie I’ll take 4000 iu’s of vit D3 but will offset with a K2 pill too 

[EllaC]

And didn’t realise you had to take vit D with a fat source so duely noted

[Bonny]

It’s incredible how important D3 is! How’s this I live on the coast by the beach and go fishing so heaps of sun exposure BUT I’m vit D borderline deficient ! Crazy huh . And a study showed pretty much every woman with breast cancer had very low vit D levels!  Under the 50ng I think it’s measured by. 

If you go over the pathetic low rda of vit d you must also balance with vit K2 . Ie I’ll take 4000 iu’s of vit D3 but will offset with a K2 pill too 

Thanks i fully forgot about k2 thing.

K2 is important to make sure calcium stores in bone and doesnt deposit in other areas eg arteries (simplified descriptions). And a myriad of other things.

[AimDcups]

Hi Bonny, I use a lot of fenugreek,licorice,spearmint and fann el teas, I’m on a good diet, I use igf1 pro-foods (proteins, meat, cheese, dried plums, seeds...) I tried massage (but I gave up). 
Nothing happens.
I gained weight to increase my breast size but i increased just inner thight fat (I had a thight gap, but not anymore...sigh) 
So..I planned to use bo but I m sooo afraid of it... 
what do u think about? 
I had a saliva test... good hormones and estro dominance, so, no herbs for me!

[Bonny]

Hi Bonny, I use a lot of fenugreek,licorice,spearmint and fann el teas, I’m on a good diet, I use igf1 pro-foods (proteins, meat, cheese, dried plums, seeds...) I tried massage (but I gave up). 
Nothing happens.
I gained weight to increase my breast size but i increased just inner thight fat (I had a thight gap, but not anymore...sigh) 
So..I planned to use bo but I m sooo afraid of it... 
what do u think about? 
I had a saliva test... good hormones and estro dominance, so, no herbs for me!

Hi AimDcups,
I can tell you what i found so far in my personal nbe journey and you can decide if it applies to you or take what you like from it.  
- I started with a pre-made blend 'Breast Actives' and did nothing for me, mind you that was the only thing i did or changed about my life. 
- I then used PM and it messed my cycle up, had spotting mid cycle and just after periods and well i hate periods/bleeding so i stopped that after about 3 months of trying different methods eg different doses, cycling, no cycling, it all ended up with spotting or heavy periods. I did my research before purchase and pretty sure i used a good 'genuine' brand but i guess you are at the mercy of that brand if they legitimate or not. 
- i then tried BO from Bountiful Breast; for 3 or 4 months, what it did was put on alot of weight on my thighs, bum and stomach area very fast, i did moderate exercise and ate pretty healthy i couldn't justify being overweight to get boobs and got really uncomfortable with the extra weight so stopped that and that was around the same time i found out about prions in glandular and that was enough to put the final nail in the coffin for my BO use. 
- i then tried doses of single herbs eg hops, red clover, fennel, fenugreek, not all at once but experiment with different amounts, different parts of cycle, different combinations but had little luck
- the whole time doing the above routines i massaged every day twice a day for 30-60mins total daily.
- i tried a few other well known herbal routines on BN and they didn't show any fruits for my labor. 

So i went back to the research, i went right through BN and found Lotus's threads and posts; and decided i will use Lotus' research to make a new 'herbal program' but also researched/questioned why larger chested women B cup+ find it easier to grow their breast vs someone like me that starts with very low breast tissue, as well as anything i learnt or stumbled on along the way. The second question is a little harder to determine, i suspect that it's to do with breast receptors in the existing breast tissue but other pointed out research where its said we all have the same amount? Also another idea i had is that maybe receptors attract or are sort of 'switched' on more in other parts of my body rather than in my breast eg. my lower half; thighs, bum and that's why my fat gains always went to those parts.  So with all this in mind...

Things i found along the way;
- Lotus pointed out over and over again the importance of lowering DHT, T's big brother - and not the T itself, if you read Lotus's comments then this is a very strong reoccurred theme (lowering DHT) and to do it in multiple ways there is not one pathway for T to convert into DHT there is many so use many things to stop as much as you can  Eg. Reishi, GT, PC, Omegas  (not SP)
- Armotase the Extra T, women dont need as much armotase supplements, as we do it naturally but WP would be L top pick according to comments
- Less is more, do not do large quantities of herbs; it's not needed and it desensitizes your receptors, studies show FG only needs to be around 600mg daily. This is where alot of people go wrong we thing more more more and it actually does the opposite it shuts your receptor off because the body is always trying to balance and too much of anything according to the body is not good so it switches receptors off to try to balance out. I think i repeated this mistake over and over again until my most recent program where i use the lowest amounts of herbs particularly phytoE herbs. And this is where i think particularly flat girls go wrong we have less 'active' receptors or whatever is going on with us (whatever theory you want to go by) and we over whelm them with large quantities of herbs or very strong herbs eg. PM and it just makes us stall.
- Nutritional herbs/supps; we need to think about how our food can help us along too.  Greentea is can help with DHT, Dandelion tea with receptors, coconut oil is an essential in my program, along with omegas (Inchi Oil) and staying away from things that may hinder eg. flaxseed (L research indicates no good for NBE, other may find different). Surfer Joe points out the importance of seeds and nuts, which i now firmly believe in and i include a few tablespoons of a nut and seed mix in my daily diet.  Along with particular nuts that are said to help with nbe. 
- as far a massage, so i think if you solely massage you may have great gains however if combination with a herbal program then it has been my personal experience that too much massage is counterproductive, now am not saying no massage am saying long periods of massage, i now only massage 5-10mins while rubbing my oils twice a day and then maybe once or twice a week i'll give my breast a deeper massage where i essential rub any 'knots' out, any tender spots. 
- i'd also like to point out the importance of prolactin, too much is not good however you need to increase it to have the fat store in the breast vs other areas, i would not recommend taking supplements for this as most of the ones that increase prolactin also decrease blood sugar and it makes you feels so sick (from experience), i would do it topically or by gentle tugging on the breast regularly through the day. 
- hgh (human growth hormone); if your younger not so much of a concern but the older you are the less you have; have decent sleep pattern, 12hr fasting, increase vitamin D levels, and creatine use are all said to help with hgh, as well as burst training (exercise done in short but intense fashion). 
- protein is not as important as fat, stay away from whey drinks they seem to just dump excess weight all over the place and too much protein is not good for you.  I am a plant & egg eater and i find plenty of protein in my everyday foods not to have to supplement so if you eating meat and having nuts then you'll have more then enough don't waste your money or calories on whey drinks, instead look at more fruit, vege, nuts and eggs (if you need to increase protein look to eggs). 
- Progestrone Cream (PC); now some freak about using PC cream however i have found it to be beneficial to me i use it in the luteal and i apply to my breast.  Now you make your own decisions about that, i researched outside BN and i read Lotus' comments about its use and decide it was ok for me.  You have to remember that different hormones do different things to breast eg. some help fat store in the breast, others grow the glands, others cause side branching of breast tissue. 
- Cycling is essential to herbal programs and probably others too; my thoughts are you need to mimic the cycle and what should be happening during that time and also work out at that point of time what is needed to grow breast.  Cycling also keeps the body guessing and stalling will be less likely. 

There is probably alot more i have forgotten but hopefully gives you some food for thought, this is what i've found for myself along the way and am no expert but it seems I've found a working program finally, albeit slow growth program but i think that's the key when your flat you really can't rush your growth it just doesn't work, maybe once i get to a solid B cup i could push it a little but for now i can see progress and so can my hubby he keeps commenting 'you've had some growth' or 'your boobs are looking good', my clothes fit and look better and my confidence is up, i don't go around hiding myself anymore and for me that's all it's ever been about, feeling comfortable.  It does take time though and you must be patience with your body and keep an open mind about your expectations, i don't measure anymore and i rarely take photos because i don't see any difference, i do my own measures of growth i place my hand under my breast flat on top of my rib cage my fingers pointing to my sternum and when i started nbe i could see my whole hand, every finger, now when i do it my first two fingers i can't see so i know i have had progress regardless of tape or photos results. 

In your case, i wouldn't do BO i think that you'll have the same experience as me when i put on weight it's always thighs and bum and man did BO stack it on there, plus am yet to find a fellow flat girl that has had any gains from it or to be honest anyone really alot of smoke and mirrors with BO.  If your worried about E dominance, i would maybe just play it safe and think about researching PC and/or vitex, once you get your E dom under control then consider adding E herbs however in low amounts. Work with what you know you have high E; therefore design a program where your not looking at E herbs think about how you can best use progesterone, it takes more Progesterone to grow breast then E we focus on E so much because it's what creates female characteristics but we need progesterone to grow breast if it was all about E then all women with E dom would have huge boobs so it's not just that! Also progesterone should help get your E dom under control and if you look into 'over dosing' on progesterone it's highly unlikely so pretty safe, i would cycle it but others do use it daily.  Have a look at increasing your nutrition eg. nuts, seeds and staying away from processed junk, i personally stay away from dairy and meat they are inflammation/acid causing foods and hard on digestion and many many other things (but as i said personal) but particularly look at good fats and then prolactin increase (not too much) to get that fat to store in breast.  Massage but not too much, i once read someone comment how some massage fatty areas to break up fat and get rid of it and i that's when i thought maybe too much massage when your small is counter productive, you need it for prolactin and blood circulation but keep it under 10mins. 

I think it's very hard to be in this modern world and not have E dom, it's all those nasty xenoestrogen that really stuff you up, everyone must really consider detoxing their homes and themselves of as much as possible for their health not just nbe.  The world of chemical free products has vastly improved since the beginning try swapping things out or asking do i really need this? You must think of your skin as an organ what chemicals you rub on it penetrates, what you breath eg. perfumes, deodorants, scented this or that goes in and are all chemicals, what you wash your clothes in, obviously, what you eat or better yet what you consumed has ate before its' death. We shouldn't fear phytoE or our own E as much as we should fear xenoE; now to be clear doesn't mean go crazy on herbs am simply pointing out that don't blame the phytoE for what in all likelyhood is xenoE that has caused E dominance. Eat organic as much as possible and pick supps that are as organic or clean as possible, i've recently read avoid supps from China and India because they are heavily contaminated. At the end of the day you as the best person to tell if something is good or bad for you so i suggest you follow your own instincts.  Don't blindly follow others, research and research some more and some may say don't do this or that, but as i said you are your own person and sometimes we have to try to stuff to see if it works. 

As i always say i am not telling anyone what to do and please always do your own research as i only know what i've found to work or not work for me and on the scale of everything nbe i know very little and what i do know i've simply collected along the way.  So please please always be safe and always check things you read before committing to them.