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If I take a phytoestrogen, do I really need something to increase progesterone?
#21
(05-04-2017, 08:56 PM)EllaC Wrote:
(05-04-2017, 12:37 PM)Pink.Chiffon Wrote: EllaC
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad



I had never heard that blood test are so inaccurate for hormones !! I am really surprised considering I pay a lot of money to see a bioidentical hormone replacement specialist who has been doing blood tests and urine tests, but is only doing urine tests for cortisol levels. I will have to do some research on that, because if there is a more accurate test I want to bring it up with my doctor. When I get my blood drawn they do stress the importance of when my last period was, but nonetheless, since I pay out of pocket for the testing, I at least want accurate results.

Edit: I looked at my lab test results and turns out the hormones are actually done using a 12hr urine collection. I did a little bit of research, and according to meridianvalleylab.com/about-hormone-testing a 24hr urine test is the most accurate for most hormones (female hormone, androgen balance, adrenal health, growth hormone). They say this is well established in the medical literature. Saliva is best for cortisol and menstrual cycle evaluation.

Yeh i was recently instructed to do a 24hour urine collection for estrogen metabolism (again non funded and at a huge cost to me). And yeh for cortisol/adrenal def urine. The blood spot tests Im completely confident are rubbish. Prob is theres a huge cost involved in doing saliva and most medical practises arent subsidized so bloods are cheap and easy to order. 
Urine and saliva are the way to go.


Yes I think you're right. Blood is good for measuring thyroid I think, but in terms of sex hormones, it isn't optimal. That's what I liked about the meridian valley lab website. It just said which tests where best for measuring what. I did read one of the biggest disadvantages of saliva is the sample size is so small that measurinf accurate amounts of anything that is going to be in low amounts is tricky, and as a biochemist who has worked in quality assurance (measuring trace amounts of stuff in samples) I get why saliva is maybe not ideal for measuring most things. Probably urine is best for sex hormone panels, but I noticed they have both 24 hour urine and dry urine tests. I guess in the US its not so bad. I think I pay $500 for my urine tests but I only get it done 1-2 times a year.

Also really glad I found out my hormone tests weren't being done with blood work! :Smile think the blood work is for measuring thyroid and thyroid antibodies.
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#22
(06-04-2017, 12:06 AM)Pink.Chiffon Wrote:
(05-04-2017, 08:56 PM)EllaC Wrote:
(05-04-2017, 12:37 PM)Pink.Chiffon Wrote: EllaC
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad



I had never heard that blood test are so inaccurate for hormones !! I am really surprised considering I pay a lot of money to see a bioidentical hormone replacement specialist who has been doing blood tests and urine tests, but is only doing urine tests for cortisol levels. I will have to do some research on that, because if there is a more accurate test I want to bring it up with my doctor. When I get my blood drawn they do stress the importance of when my last period was, but nonetheless, since I pay out of pocket for the testing, I at least want accurate results.

Edit: I looked at my lab test results and turns out the hormones are actually done using a 12hr urine collection. I did a little bit of research, and according to meridianvalleylab.com/about-hormone-testing a 24hr urine test is the most accurate for most hormones (female hormone, androgen balance, adrenal health, growth hormone). They say this is well established in the medical literature. Saliva is best for cortisol and menstrual cycle evaluation.

Yeh i was recently instructed to do a 24hour urine collection for estrogen metabolism (again non funded and at a huge cost to me). And yeh for cortisol/adrenal def urine. The blood spot tests Im completely confident are rubbish. Prob is theres a huge cost involved in doing saliva and most medical practises arent subsidized so bloods are cheap and easy to order. 
Urine and saliva are the way to go.


Yes I think you're right. Blood is good for measuring thyroid I think, but in terms of sex hormones, it isn't optimal. That's what I liked about the meridian valley lab website. It just said which tests where best for measuring what. I did read one of the biggest disadvantages of saliva is the sample size is so small that measurinf accurate amounts of anything that is going to be in low amounts is tricky, and as a biochemist who has worked in quality assurance (measuring trace amounts of stuff in samples) I get why saliva is maybe not ideal for measuring most things. Probably urine is best for sex hormone panels, but I noticed they have both 24 hour urine and dry urine tests. I guess in the US its not so bad. I think I pay $500 for my urine tests but I only get it done 1-2 times a year.

Also really glad I found out my hormone tests weren't being done with blood work! :Smile think the blood work is for measuring thyroid and thyroid antibodies.


Yeh agreed. In my country any sample is sent offshore for analysis with up to 8 week turn around too! I had a huge set of samples saliva skin and poop sent off to the US before xmas then got told 8 weeks later the samples weren't viable! I was gutted.  I didn't do thec24 hr urine either . I'm just adopting strategies to encourage healthy estrogen metabolism and hope for the best!
 Reply
#23
(05-04-2017, 11:53 PM)Lotus Wrote: Hi Bettie, 

I looked at the site you listed, I couldn't find any evidence (other than a theoretical observation) supporting their claim that Astaxathin promoting T.
Quote:Because this supplement may inhibit the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, it could cause side effects similar to other compounds that also inhibit this enzyme. These effects are theoretical and have not been demonstrated in human research trials.




I don't think ladies need that much pro-aromatase, see woman get aromatase (endogenously) or occurring naturally from ovaries, plancenta, the synthesis of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) via the negative feedback loop , the pituitary, in adipose (human fat)

However, I think preadipocytes  (pre-adipose) cells are better suited for breast development rather than mature adipocytes (or stored fat)...a topic for another day maybe.


Anyways, preventing DHT is completed in multiple pathways,.....my theory is that the more you inhibit DHT (or limit its access to these pathways) via 5 alpha reductase, leaves hormones to freely distribute (or synthesize) naturally........aka up-regulation to the aromatase enzyme.

Apologies for the complexities,....we are the Kings and Queens of NBE  Wink And....it is in the science we find breast growthTongue




Here's a human trail though.


(06-02-2016, 05:29 AM)Lotus Wrote: A preliminary investigation of the enzymatic inhibition of 5alpha-reduction and growth of prostatic carcinoma cell line LNCap-FGC by natural astaxanthin and Saw Palmetto lipid extract in vitro.

J Herb Pharmacother. 2005;5(1):17-26.
Abstract
Inhibition of 5alpha-reductase has been reported to decrease the symptoms of benign prostate hyperplasia (BPH) and possibly inhibit or help treat prostate cancer. Saw Palmetto berry lipid extract (SPLE) is reported to inhibit 5alpha-reductase and decrease the clinical symptoms of BPH. Epidemiologic studies report that carotenoids such as lycopene may inhibit prostate cancer. In this investigation the effect of the carotenoid astaxanthin, and SPLE were examined for their effect on 5alpha-reductase inhibition as well as the growth of prostatic carcinoma cells in vitro. These studies support patent #6,277,417 B1. The results show astaxanthin demonstrated 98% inhibition of 5alpha-reductase at 300 microg/mL in vitro. Alphastat, the combination of astaxanthin and SPLE, showed a 20% greater inhibition of 5alpha-reductase than SPLE alone n vitro. A nine day treatment of prostatic carcinoma cells with astaxanthin in vitro produced a 24% decrease in growth at 0.1 mcg/mL and a 38% decrease at 0.01 mcg/mL. SPLE showed a 34% decrease at 0.1 mcg/mL.
CONCLUSIONS: Low levels of carotenoid astaxanthin inhibit 5alpha-reductase and decrease the growth of human prostatic cancer cells in vitro. Astaxanthin added to SPLE shows greater inhibition of 5alpha-reductase than SPLE alone in vitro.

PMID 16093232 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Anti-cancer potential of flavonoids: recent trends and future perspectives
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824783/


Thank you, Lotus for replying and for the info <3
I get paranoid because the last thing I want to do is increase testosterone! I was also thinking of going for Saw Palmetto too but keep reading that though it decreases DHT, it also decreases estrogen. It's very confusing.
And I also read about studies stating that taking astaxanthin with saw palmetto decreases DHT and estrogen, while raising testosterone!!   Huh :
http://www.mercola.com/testosterone.aspx#6

As of now, I'm more inclined towards astaxanthin. It is a great antioxidant after all....I guess the only way to find out is to try :o)
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