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If I take a phytoestrogen, do I really need something to increase progesterone?
#11
(03-04-2017, 04:38 AM)EllaC Wrote: Was it saliva hormone test Beattie? If your normal I wouldn't want to tip he balance ya know. But who's to say it's your testosterone is causing small breast. Personal the fainting spells the sensitivity to herbs I'd be treading carefully.

You know me I never wana suggest anyone take any herbs. So just mentioning for you to investigate further with a professional but they use saw palmetto to treat PCos plus many girls grew breasts on it. I wonder if that's cause it stops testosterone being dominant. 

But tonanswer my own question low circulation isn't great for what we are tryiNg to achieve. But it's what's underlying the circulation. For me I suspect ect thyroid. Time to buck up my ideas and get the thyroid tests. It's another thing that runs in the family .


No, all of them were blood tests. Yeah, I know I know.... Balance is key but when I took the BCP (for PCOS) my hormones were perrrfectly balanced and did I have bigger breasts? Nope. Not at all. I'm starting to think that a bit more estrogen (and progesterone) would promote growth. Thing is: how much is a "bit"? lol

Thank you for mentioning saw palmetto, that was on the top of my list! UNTIL I found out that it also lowers estrogen. It does lower testosterone/DHT but it also lowers estrogen. So frustrating!!! Apparently DIM could also do this. Too bad because otherwise I would have gone for DIM. I also just discovered inositol (basically vitamin B8) lowers testosterone but this too lowers estrogen!! I think it's something you might like, Ella. It balances/lowers estrogen. Many PCOS sufferers confirm that their testosterone went down but so did their estrogen levels, with inositol. I don't want to lower estrogen! Thing is I'm not an expert: maybe if one lowers testosterone, the estrogen will still be higher than T?? Who knows. I don't think so though. I think both levels will end up becoming low which doesn't sound ideal for NBE.
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#12
(03-04-2017, 06:02 AM)EllaC Wrote: Ps after you reminding me of dim in your thread I ordered some more Maca as hands down it DID bring my cycle back to balance which has to be healthier than early and spotting beforehand. 
I wouldn't be worried about it reducing estrogen. My ND who has a PHd and travels around our country lecturing is one clued up lady. And in agrreeance b cause I haven't had the estrogen metabolism test yet she was like "take the DIM!" . She wasn't too happy with the Maca as we've discussed but had no issues with me trialling for three months . However I'm confident I don't have high testosterone so Maca might not be for you. 

Supplementing our diets with DIM can shift the production of estrogen metabolites away from dangerous 16-hydroxy in favor of beneficial 2-hydroxy metabolites.  Taking DIM in an absorbable formulation encourages active and healthy estrogen metabolism.  DIM supports estrogen balance by increasing beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens and reducing the unwanted 16-hydroxy variety.  This improves estrogen metabolism and helps resolve all three forms of estrogen dominance.

I think you had a dim thread didn't ya. I'm tired. Posted in wrong place. 


Haha don't worry <3 I also brought up DIM in this thread. It sounds like it's perfect for you, Ella. 
Am laying off the maca for a while. Some ladies say it actually lowered their testosterone but I also think it raises it. You have no issues with T so it's ok. A few ladies on the forum said to take something to block testosterone while taking maca (if you tend to have high T) but have yet to find the perfect supplement to lower testosterone/DHT!!
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#13
(03-04-2017, 12:21 PM)bettie32 Wrote:
(03-04-2017, 06:02 AM)EllaC Wrote: Ps after you reminding me of dim in your thread I ordered some more Maca as hands down it DID bring my cycle back to balance which has to be healthier than early and spotting beforehand. 
I wouldn't be worried about it reducing estrogen. My ND who has a PHd and travels around our country lecturing is one clued up lady. And in agrreeance b cause I haven't had the estrogen metabolism test yet she was like "take the DIM!" . She wasn't too happy with the Maca as we've discussed but had no issues with me trialling for three months . However I'm confident I don't have high testosterone so Maca might not be for you. 

Supplementing our diets with DIM can shift the production of estrogen metabolites away from dangerous 16-hydroxy in favor of beneficial 2-hydroxy metabolites.  Taking DIM in an absorbable formulation encourages active and healthy estrogen metabolism.  DIM supports estrogen balance by increasing beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens and reducing the unwanted 16-hydroxy variety.  This improves estrogen metabolism and helps resolve all three forms of estrogen dominance.

I think you had a dim thread didn't ya. I'm tired. Posted in wrong place. 


Haha don't worry <3 I also brought up DIM in this thread. It sounds like it's perfect for you, Ella. 
Am laying off the maca for a while. Some ladies say it actually lowered their testosterone but I also think it raises it. You have no issues with T so it's ok. A few ladies on the forum said to take something to block testosterone while taking maca (if you tend to have high T) but have yet to find the perfect supplement to lower testosterone/DHT!!


They say lemon juice and tomatoe juice lowersdht too..but idk the effectiveness...idk why dont you try astaxanthine?
 Reply
#14
(03-04-2017, 12:21 PM)bettie32 Wrote:
(03-04-2017, 06:02 AM)EllaC Wrote: Ps after you reminding me of dim in your thread I ordered some more Maca as hands down it DID bring my cycle back to balance which has to be healthier than early and spotting beforehand. 
I wouldn't be worried about it reducing estrogen. My ND who has a PHd and travels around our country lecturing is one clued up lady. And in agrreeance b cause I haven't had the estrogen metabolism test yet she was like "take the DIM!" . She wasn't too happy with the Maca as we've discussed but had no issues with me trialling for three months . However I'm confident I don't have high testosterone so Maca might not be for you. 

Supplementing our diets with DIM can shift the production of estrogen metabolites away from dangerous 16-hydroxy in favor of beneficial 2-hydroxy metabolites.  Taking DIM in an absorbable formulation encourages active and healthy estrogen metabolism.  DIM supports estrogen balance by increasing beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens and reducing the unwanted 16-hydroxy variety.  This improves estrogen metabolism and helps resolve all three forms of estrogen dominance.

I think you had a dim thread didn't ya. I'm tired. Posted in wrong place. 


Haha don't worry <3 I also brought up DIM in this thread. It sounds like it's perfect for you, Ella. 
Am laying off the maca for a while. Some ladies say it actually lowered their testosterone but I also think it raises it. You have no issues with T so it's ok. A few ladies on the forum said to take something to block testosterone while taking maca (if you tend to have high T) but have yet to find the perfect supplement to lower testosterone/DHT!!

do you not want to treat your pcos though?
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad

naturopaths etc have a vow of silence. id find a good reputed practioner and explain your whole picture. pcos/breasts/blood pressure issues and ask them to test you properly 

theres a lady who runs this awesome forum, she has the same gut condition i have and it wasnt until she addressed her "hormones" she started to get well. She too did multiple bloods! They all came back normal and she got sicker and sicker. So once she had  the proper saliva tests done her results were not normal at all, she got on to the right treatement and came well. This is why i want to save up and get the Dutch test Smile
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#15
(03-04-2017, 09:14 PM)EllaC Wrote: do you not want to treat your pcos though?
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad

naturopaths etc have a vow of silence. id find a good reputed practioner and explain your whole picture. pcos/breasts/blood pressure issues and ask them to test you properly 

theres a lady who runs this awesome forum, she has the same gut condition i have and it wasnt until she addressed her "hormones" she started to get well. She too did multiple bloods! They all came back normal and she got sicker and sicker. So once she had  the proper saliva tests done her results were not normal at all, she got on to the right treatement and came well. This is why i want to save up and get the Dutch test Smile


My PCOS is "under control". I got my ovaries checked several year ago and the doctor said there isn't a cyst in sight anymore. In fact, my periods are very regular, no more acne. The thing with PCOS is that it's never really 100% cured. Maybe the cysts are "dormant" or something....another lady on here says she has PCOS even though she has no cysts in her ovaries etc. You should have seen the acne I used to have, Ella!! When the right BCP was prescribed to me, it went away and so did the ovarian cysts. Then I decided not to take a BCP (you know I'm not a fan of synthetic hormones though they did do me good in a sense...). I wouldn't be surprised if eating healthier/more organic has had a positive impact (maybe that's why no more cysts...who knows). Still, even though there were no more cysts, my blood tests did reveal testosterone on the high side. 
Like you said though, they can be misleading. I do though have symptoms/characteristics that indicate slightly higher testosterone but exactly, you have to go to the right place, take the right tests at the right time. One (honest) doctor even told me not to trust blood tests!! Wow, I didn't see that Oprah episode...
I actually didn't know a saliva test could be more reliable. Will look into that. Thank you, Ella <3

By the way, I was reading this article and thought of you as it mentions leaky gut: 
https://draxe.com/10-ways-balance-hormones-naturally/
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#16
(03-04-2017, 05:29 PM)hannah Wrote: They say lemon juice and tomatoe juice lowersdht too..but idk the effectiveness...idk why dont you try astaxanthine?


Thank you, Hannah <3 Yes, I wanted to try astaxanthin but looks like we would need to take a pro-aromatase with it? I think Lotus pointed it out but not sure if I understood correctly. What do you think?? Lotus? Smile
I don't want to take an aromatase like white peony because it might lower blood pressure/slow blood clotting. I want to keep it simple...less is more philosophy
Also, why do some sources state that axtaxanthin increases testosterone??:

https://nootriment.com/astaxanthin-testosterone/
 Reply
#17
(04-04-2017, 11:12 AM)bettie32 Wrote:
(03-04-2017, 09:14 PM)EllaC Wrote: do you not want to treat your pcos though?
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad

naturopaths etc have a vow of silence. id find a good reputed practioner and explain your whole picture. pcos/breasts/blood pressure issues and ask them to test you properly 

theres a lady who runs this awesome forum, she has the same gut condition i have and it wasnt until she addressed her "hormones" she started to get well. She too did multiple bloods! They all came back normal and she got sicker and sicker. So once she had  the proper saliva tests done her results were not normal at all, she got on to the right treatement and came well. This is why i want to save up and get the Dutch test Smile


My PCOS is "under control". I got my ovaries checked several year ago and the doctor said there isn't a cyst in sight anymore. In fact, my periods are very regular, no more acne. The thing with PCOS is that it's never really 100% cured. Maybe the cysts are "dormant" or something....another lady on here says she has PCOS even though she has no cysts in her ovaries etc. You should have seen the acne I used to have, Ella!! When the right BCP was prescribed to me, it went away and so did the ovarian cysts. Then I decided not to take a BCP (you know I'm not a fan of synthetic hormones though they did do me good in a sense...). I wouldn't be surprised if eating healthier/more organic has had a positive impact (maybe that's why no more cysts...who knows). Still, even though there were no more cysts, my blood tests did reveal testosterone on the high side. 
Like you said though, they can be misleading. I do though have symptoms/characteristics that indicate slightly higher testosterone but exactly, you have to go to the right place, take the right tests at the right time. One (honest) doctor even told me not to trust blood tests!! Wow, I didn't see that Oprah episode...
I actually didn't know a saliva test could be more reliable. Will look into that. Thank you, Ella <3

By the way, I was reading this article and thought of you as it mentions leaky gut: 
https://draxe.com/10-ways-balance-hormones-naturally/

Thats big for a Doctor to say.
Thanks love Il take a look.
 Reply
#18
EllaC
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad



I had never heard that blood test are so inaccurate for hormones !! I am really surprised considering I pay a lot of money to see a bioidentical hormone replacement specialist who has been doing blood tests and urine tests, but is only doing urine tests for cortisol levels. I will have to do some research on that, because if there is a more accurate test I want to bring it up with my doctor. When I get my blood drawn they do stress the importance of when my last period was, but nonetheless, since I pay out of pocket for the testing, I at least want accurate results.

Edit: I looked at my lab test results and turns out the hormones are actually done using a 12hr urine collection. I did a little bit of research, and according to meridianvalleylab.com/about-hormone-testing a 24hr urine test is the most accurate for most hormones (female hormone, androgen balance, adrenal health, growth hormone). They say this is well established in the medical literature. Saliva is best for cortisol and menstrual cycle evaluation.
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#19
(05-04-2017, 12:37 PM)Pink.Chiffon Wrote: EllaC
and you know blood tests are useless! ive been told this over and over. theres many studies too so my bloods put me in the normal range too and i am sooooo not normal! has to be saliva. so in essense your hormones might NOT be what you think they are..
its like "conventional ranges" for thyroid bloods too. Oprah did a whole show of women who had "normal" thyroid ranges due to coventional blood testing only to actually have had thyroid disease which blew out of proportion, some developed thryoid cancer, some had their thyroids removed too!
I think your hormonal picture might be very diff with the right testing and at the right time in your cycle. i only harp on and bring this up cause i dont want you to get hurt by herbals like i did Sad



I had never heard that blood test are so inaccurate for hormones !! I am really surprised considering I pay a lot of money to see a bioidentical hormone replacement specialist who has been doing blood tests and urine tests, but is only doing urine tests for cortisol levels. I will have to do some research on that, because if there is a more accurate test I want to bring it up with my doctor. When I get my blood drawn they do stress the importance of when my last period was, but nonetheless, since I pay out of pocket for the testing, I at least want accurate results.

Edit: I looked at my lab test results and turns out the hormones are actually done using a 12hr urine collection. I did a little bit of research, and according to meridianvalleylab.com/about-hormone-testing a 24hr urine test is the most accurate for most hormones (female hormone, androgen balance, adrenal health, growth hormone). They say this is well established in the medical literature. Saliva is best for cortisol and menstrual cycle evaluation.

Yeh i was recently instructed to do a 24hour urine collection for estrogen metabolism (again non funded and at a huge cost to me). And yeh for cortisol/adrenal def urine. The blood spot tests Im completely confident are rubbish. Prob is theres a huge cost involved in doing saliva and most medical practises arent subsidized so bloods are cheap and easy to order. 
Urine and saliva are the way to go.
 Reply
#20
(04-04-2017, 11:20 AM)bettie32 Wrote:
(03-04-2017, 05:29 PM)hannah Wrote: They say lemon juice and tomatoe juice lowersdht too..but idk the effectiveness...idk why dont you try astaxanthine?


Thank you, Hannah <3 Yes, I wanted to try astaxanthin but looks like we would need to take a pro-aromatase with it? I think Lotus pointed it out but not sure if I understood correctly. What do you think?? Lotus? Smile
I don't want to take an aromatase like white peony because it might lower blood pressure/slow blood clotting. I want to keep it simple...less is more philosophy
Also, why do some sources state that axtaxanthin increases testosterone??:

https://nootriment.com/astaxanthin-testosterone/


Hi Bettie, 

I looked at the site you listed, I couldn't find any evidence (other than a theoretical observation) supporting their claim that Astaxathin promoting T.
Quote:Because this supplement may inhibit the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, it could cause side effects similar to other compounds that also inhibit this enzyme. These effects are theoretical and have not been demonstrated in human research trials.




I don't think ladies need that much pro-aromatase, see woman get aromatase (endogenously) or occurring naturally from ovaries, plancenta, the synthesis of FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) via the negative feedback loop , the pituitary, in adipose (human fat)

However, I think preadipocytes  (pre-adipose) cells are better suited for breast development rather than mature adipocytes (or stored fat)...a topic for another day maybe.


Anyways, preventing DHT is completed in multiple pathways,.....my theory is that the more you inhibit DHT (or limit its access to these pathways) via 5 alpha reductase, leaves hormones to freely distribute (or synthesize) naturally........aka up-regulation to the aromatase enzyme.

Apologies for the complexities,....we are the Kings and Queens of NBE  Wink And....it is in the science we find breast growthTongue




Here's a human trail though.


(06-02-2016, 05:29 AM)Lotus Wrote: A preliminary investigation of the enzymatic inhibition of 5alpha-reduction and growth of prostatic carcinoma cell line LNCap-FGC by natural astaxanthin and Saw Palmetto lipid extract in vitro.

J Herb Pharmacother. 2005;5(1):17-26.
Abstract
Inhibition of 5alpha-reductase has been reported to decrease the symptoms of benign prostate hyperplasia (BPH) and possibly inhibit or help treat prostate cancer. Saw Palmetto berry lipid extract (SPLE) is reported to inhibit 5alpha-reductase and decrease the clinical symptoms of BPH. Epidemiologic studies report that carotenoids such as lycopene may inhibit prostate cancer. In this investigation the effect of the carotenoid astaxanthin, and SPLE were examined for their effect on 5alpha-reductase inhibition as well as the growth of prostatic carcinoma cells in vitro. These studies support patent #6,277,417 B1. The results show astaxanthin demonstrated 98% inhibition of 5alpha-reductase at 300 microg/mL in vitro. Alphastat, the combination of astaxanthin and SPLE, showed a 20% greater inhibition of 5alpha-reductase than SPLE alone n vitro. A nine day treatment of prostatic carcinoma cells with astaxanthin in vitro produced a 24% decrease in growth at 0.1 mcg/mL and a 38% decrease at 0.01 mcg/mL. SPLE showed a 34% decrease at 0.1 mcg/mL.
CONCLUSIONS: Low levels of carotenoid astaxanthin inhibit 5alpha-reductase and decrease the growth of human prostatic cancer cells in vitro. Astaxanthin added to SPLE shows greater inhibition of 5alpha-reductase than SPLE alone in vitro.

PMID 16093232 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Anti-cancer potential of flavonoids: recent trends and future perspectives
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824783/

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