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Progesterone deficiency
June 17 2006 at 1:39 AM Pancyclub (Login pansyclub)
I think I have Progesterone deficiency... what do I do? Can I take wild yam extract internally? When and how much??




wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Progesterone deficiency
June 17 2006, 2:36 AM

I am interested in knowing myself and I am doing reserach on it.

However according to a lot of scientist a compound in wild yam called diosgenin can be converted to progesterone in the lab, but not in the body. So I am not sure Wild Yam will cause progesterone increase.

Perhaps taking Natural progesterone might help check this website out for more information.http://www.health-science.com/natural_progesterone.html

I like their style and they have some good not too technical reading material. They also sell natural progesterone but I would look around to see what you feel comfortable with.



pansyclub
(Login pansyclub)
Re: Progesterone deficiency
June 17 2006, 2:37 PM

thanx for the link. I don't like cream, is there anything I can take internally??




SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Progesterone deficiency
June 17 2006, 5:31 PM

you can talk try progest-E drops or talk to your doctor and get a prescription for progesterone tablets.



Betty
(no login)
Re: Progesterone deficiency
June 19 2006, 8:11 AM

I've heard that Maca is good for progesterone deficiency.

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progesterone deficiency
December 17 2006 at 4:44 AM princessglitter (Login princessglitter)
SENIOR MEMBER
Hi,
I think I have progesterone deficiency. Can I use progesterone cream? I am asking this because it seems like the cream is only used on people who are estrogen dominant. I am confused now. Anyone can help?




diana
(Login Diana1978)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone deficiency
December 17 2006, 6:14 AM

someone please correct me if i am wrong. but wouldnt someone who is estrogen dominant be progesterone deficient, as in not enough progesterone to counteract all the excess estrogen being produced by the body? i dont see why you cant use the p cream, since that is what u r lacking.good luck. hopefully someone can clarify.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone deficiency
December 17 2006, 3:07 PM

I agree Diana, a person who is progesterone deficient will benefit from progesterone cream.

Estrogen dominant might as well just be called progesterone deficient. It exists when a woman does not have enough progesterone to balance the estrogen she has, therefore it can also exist if a person's progesterone is normal and their estrogen is too high.

Princessglitter, if you are progesterone deficient, you would probably also benefit from Vitex. It stimulates your body into making more of its own progesterone.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



diana
(Login Diana1978)
SENIOR MEMBER
thanx wm
December 17 2006, 3:46 PM

how about maca? i take vitex, but there's been recent talk that maca balances also? good luck.



Anonymous
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone deficiency
December 17 2006, 4:44 PM

Estrogent dominant = progesterone defficient AND CAN actually also be estrogent defficient, meaning that progesterone is so low that there is a lot more estrogen compared to progesterone, but that may still be too little. So in estrogen dominant case it's good to use progesteronic as well as estrogenic agents.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone deficiency
December 17 2006, 5:00 PM

Good point Moon,

Estrogen dominant can mean these things:

Your progesterone is normal but you have too much estrogen.

Your estrogen is normal but you have too little progesterone.

You have too little estrogen but you have even less progesterone.




Anonymous
(Login princessglitter)
SENIOR MEMBER
confusing
December 17 2006, 6:25 PM

This is confusing. I don't think I am estrogen dominant because I dont have the symptoms at all. So it looks like most people can use progesterone cream. Are there certain group of people who are not suitable to use the cream? If there is, can anyone name it?



Glamma
(Login Glamma)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone deficiency
December 17 2006, 7:02 PM

Im a little confused as well. If my progesterone level is normal but I have to much estrogen will I still benefit from vitex. If vitex stimulates your body into making more progesterone but my progesterone is normal how will I benefit? So how do I get rid of excess estroegn?

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Extremely low Progesterone levels
March 6 2009 at 6:46 PM
Dreamer (Login LuCLu)
SENIOR MEMBER
I recently went to the doctor to get my blood checked and had her check my hormones too since i was there. I am waaaaayyyy low on my progesterone. I am at "0.9" on my luteal phase when i'm supposed to be inbetween 3.3-26.0 that's likse severely low!! Now wonder i feel totally gross before my periods! All that to say- this is my first month off of bc pills for like a year...and i'm 4 days late on my period(at day 32 of cycle). I took 2 pregnancy tests, but both came out negative. My Gyno told me that if i dont get my preiod by middle of next week that shes going to give me progesterone so that i get my period....

Wondering:
Has anyone had a severe case of progesterone deficiency like myself, missed periods or were irregular (this is the first time ive been irregular ever) and what did you do about it? I've heard Maca gentley regulates your endoctrine system to balance hormones....has anyone had success with this?




Rosa
(Login BlackDiamond27)
Re: Extremely low Progesterone levels
March 7 2009, 4:00 AM

Most definitely I had severe case of progesterone deficiency low levels out of this world.The most periods I had a year were 5.I had those awful pains that let me know I am about to come on my period.My cycle were very heavy on the 1 couple of days.Breast tenderness,I was damn near infertile you name it it was happening to me.I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was like 14 which basically is a syndrome based on progesterone deficiency so I finally got a answer why this was.In the beginning I was put on BCP like you.I would take them but I knew they were only masking my problems.They would temporarily fix the symptoms of my proges. deficiency but they did not get to the root of whatever it was CAUSING my hormones to be imbalances and if I was to get off the pill I would be faced with the same old thing.

Then..well I always been into the natural over fake so I started getting interested on herbs buying herbal books and what not learning about things.I was on the net looking about herbs for progesterone deficiency and many came up but one that stood out to me was Chaste Berry(Vitex) b/c it is does NOT contain hormones it acts on the hypothalamus and pituitary glands(which is the master glands of controlling the sex hormones).It increases LH (lutenizing hormone) and mildly inhibiting the relaease of follicle stimulating hormone(FSH.The result is shift in the Estrogen to progesterone,in favor of progesterone.

I don't regret buying one bit I am balanced now and I have periods month to month without the pains.Not even tit tenderness :-).I don't belive you will regret either.

Now Vitex is not a fast acting herb.The minimum is 3 months 3 to six to see results.But after all the goal is to be cured of your imbalance and if 3 to 6 months is what it takes then I would go for it.Now there are other herbs for pro deficiency also if you want a faster approach.Of course there is also Progesterone creams that will help you also but basically I wanted to give my personal experience and what has helped me.Good luck to you.

Rosa



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Extremely low Progesterone levels
March 7 2009, 12:45 PM

Hi Noodles,

If this is your first month off of birth control pills then the low progesterone is likely a result of that. You probably have not ovulated for over a year. When you ovulate your body creates the corpus luteum out of the lining the egg came from. It is the corpus luteum that creates the majority of your progesterone.

It is not uncommon for it to take several months for you body to recover from BCP. You may not ovulate for several months which means you will not have access to your natural progesterone.

Rosa's idea about vitex is a good one. It will likely help you achieve hormonal balance as it has for many women.

I worry that your doctor may use an artificial progesterone to treat you. These progestins (artificial progesterone) are not as good for your body as natural progesterone. Your doctor may try and tell you otherwise, but there are many MD's who now understand that you would do better with natural progesterone. It would also be better if the natural progesterone was given to you as a cream to apply to your skin versus a pill or an injection. If you are given a pill, about 70 percent of the progesterone gets filtered out by your liver - if that sounds toxic you are right, it is.

By offering you a progesterone injection your doctor is trying to 'quick fix' a symptom of imbalance rather than help your body be natural. Getting your period would not mean you came back to a normal menstrual cycle.

I have used Maca and let me tell you, as far as being the 'cure all' for hormone issues I think it pales in comparison to vitex for what you are describing. I know Maca is touted as being an 'adaptogen' and will make you any hormone your body needs - but it did not help me with my estrogen dominance. I don't think Maca is good at promoting progesterone.

What you need most is patience right now. I know you want things to be normal as soon as possible, but it will likely take several months before your body comes back to normal. The more artificial things you do the longer it might take to get you back to your normal rhythm.

It would be a good idea to read up on your issue. If you google "irregular period after birth control" you will find a lot of women who share your problem.

Just be patient Noodle. It may take a few months. If you want to try something that can't hurt the situation then take the vitex. Rosa is right that it will take a few months to start working but it will help your body get back to normal.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon






Dreamer
(Login LuCLu)
SENIOR MEMBER
I've heard of Vitex
March 9 2009, 7:55 PM

Hey there, thanks for your answers ladies.

I have heard of both maca and vitex. Maca was more talked up (on the net) than Vitex, but i've seen more reliable answers from personal experience on this forum about vitex, just wasnt totally looking into it at that point because i didnt know i had this hormonal imbalance. Ok, so i ended up getting my period naturally on the 33rd day of my cycel, which seemed like forever!...regardless, im glad that my body menstruated naturally meaning i probably ovulated right? ....i've also heard from a reliable source that phytoestrogens help to lower your actual estrogen by blocking the receptor sites with lower doses, so it's been told that my continuing to take saw palmetto, wild yam, fenugreek, and evening primrose oil is helpful while still continuing taking progesterone cream. My breasts have filled out a little during this last month (i thought it was just do to an excess of estrogen and from PMS swelling) however im on my second day of my new cycle and my breasts have retained that size....which is great, but im just wondering from this source if taking my phytoestrgens while using pc is cool?....or should i quit the phytos and just go with vitex and pc? Im wondering beacuse it seems (with the major breast fullness/increase)that i have seen nice results with my herbs....

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Question concerning Progesterone...
January 28 2008 at 5:15 AM JadeGreen (Login JadeGreen)
So with all this talk about progesterone cream... As I'm low on progesterone, I was wondering if you could mix progesterone cream with herbs. If so... what's safe and what's not. Thanks!




Bere
(Login Berengere)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 28 2008, 5:36 AM

Don't mix the progesterone cream with herbs since the purpose of the cream is to lower your estrogen levels and increase your progesterone, balancing your hormones and allowing the breasts to grow and fill out. Taking estrogenic herbs while trying to accomplish this defeats the purpose.

You want to either stick to the increase estrogen route, or the increase progesterone route, or you might really mess your hormones up. Most girls have been doing the increase estrogen route for breast enhancement, but increasing progesterone may be far more effective.

Apparently estrogen is mostly responsible for fat gain from the waist down, however it does contribue some to breast growth which explains why some do experience growth on estrogenic herbs. But progesterone is mainly responsible for fat gain from the waist up, especially breast growth.

We'll need some more people to test the progesterone route

Anyone else besides me?



Henri
(Login henriettahippo)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 28 2008, 12:08 PM

Don't use the progesterone unless you really need it. Do a search in the forum, and you will find some interesting articles, mostly the ones by Waxingmoon. In some cases progesterone causes breast growth, but not in every case. I for one have had no increase from progesterone, but am not disappointed as I didn't start it for breast growth, and am not doing any NBE routine currently.

If you do need progesterone, then I would recommend giving it a good couple of months (six at least) on its own, before adding in anything else. Otherwise neither will be working properly.



This message has been edited by henriettahippo on Jan 28, 2008 8:19 PM




JadeGreen
(Login JadeGreen)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 29 2008, 3:00 AM

Thanks so much! I was a bit confused there. anyways I think i might just stick to the herbs since it's only been about 2 months since i started. I will definitely give progesterone a chance if the herbs don't work.

HAPPY GROWING!!! =)




Beth
(Login Boobsrock4life)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 29 2008, 6:06 AM

I tried the progesteron cream and believe it or not it shrinked my boobs, I think progesterone from the wild yam is not good for NBE because it somehow interfers with the one your body produces and also prolactin. However, I think some certain kind of progestins that are synthetic for BC are effective for NBE, but this is not always the best route.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 29 2008, 6:53 PM

Hey, just wanted to add my two cents here...

Beth, unless the wild yam has been processed in a lab then there is absolutely no progesterone from it. When they process wild yam, the lab will create a progesterone molecule that is exactly like the one our body produces. It does not interfere with our body's progesterone, it adds to it.

Now artificial progestins on the other hand are not like our progesterone molecules. They most closely resemble testosterone molecules. Progestins will attach to progesterone receptors, but they do not provide the same effects as the natural progesterone our bodies produce - or the manufactured USP grade progesterone that is created in the lab from wild yam.

Will progesterone cause your breasts to enlarge or to shrink?... it all depends. If you are estrogen dominant there may be a balancing of hormones from the use of progesterone cream and this can cause breast growth in some.

For others, the use of progesterone cream will balance the estrogen - and one of the effects of lowering high estrogen is to reduce the symptoms of estrogen dominance. One of the chief symptoms of estrogen dominance is swelling of the breasts, especially during the later phases of the menstrual cycle. Therefore, for some the use of progesterone will 'shrink' the breast because it reduces the excess estrogens swelling of the breast.

1. For some progesterone will cause a permanent increase in breast size.

2. For some progesterone will cause a reduction in breast swelling - thus a reduction in breast size.

3. For some there will be an initial increase of estrogen -since progesterone is used by the body to activate estrogen receptors and create estrogen. This would initially cause a swelling of the breast before the period which would then reduce during the period.

So.... as I have clearly outlined here... the answer to the question about whether progesterone will cause an increase in breast size is YES, NO and MAYBE.

clear as mud... lol

waxingmoon




hula girl
(Login 65hulagirl)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 29 2008, 11:58 PM

I am taking WU, but am also using Progesterone Cream as instructed on the bottle. I suffer from severe PMS. A friend had recommended it to me a while back. Then I read on the forum that it had the benefit of increasing your breast size. So, my question is, should I not be using the cream because I am on WU? But the cream helps with the PMS. Does it hurt to do both? Somebody please clarify. I'd hate to be doing both and having them cancel each ohter out.



Miles
(no login)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 31 2008, 1:57 AM

I'm not exactly sure. But, i would think it would be okay, if you were cycling the progesterone because the body naturally has a higher influx of estrogen at the beginning of the cycle and then a drop in E and a higher influx of progesterone at the end of the cycle. So, as long as you didn't use it for the whole month, I would think it would be fine. But, I don't know for sure.





hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 31 2008, 4:11 PM

Waxingmoon: you said "One of the chief symptoms of estrogen dominance is swelling of the breasts, especially during the later phases of the menstrual cycle."

But I never in my life get before period swelling so wouldn't this imply that I'm not estrogen dominant? ah so confusing...



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 31 2008, 5:34 PM

Hopeful,
It is not a matter of whether you have ALL of the symptoms of estrogen dominance but rather how many of the symptoms you have. The more you have the more likely it is that estrogen dominance plays a role in your body's distress.

Here is the list of estrogen dominance symptoms- copied from the book 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause' by Dr. John Lee (this makes probably the billionth time I have referenced this book on Eve' forum...lol)

Acceleration of the aging process
Allergy symptoms
Auto-immune disorders
Breast cancer
Breast tenderness
Cervical dysplasia
Cold hands and feet as a symptom of thyroid dysfunction
Copper excess
Decreased sex drive
Depression with anxiety or agitation
Dry eyes
Early onset of menstruation
Endometrial cancer
Fat gain -especially around the abdomen, hips and thighs
Fibrocystic breasts
Foggy thinking
Gallbladder disease
Hair loss
Headaches
Hypoglycemia
Increased blood clotting
Infertility
Irregular menstrual cycles
Irritability
Insomnia
Magnesium deficiency
Memory loss
Mood swings
Osteoporosis
PMS
Polycystic ovaries
Premenopausal bone loss
Prostate cancer (obviously this one is about men)
Sluggish metabolism
Thyroid dysfunction mimicking hypothyroidism
Uterine cancer
Uterine fibroids
Water retention, bloatiing
Zinc deficiency

Whew... that's a big list. And if you had ALL of those symptoms you would have to be a hermaphrodite because one of those symptoms is about prostate cancer... lol. However, the more symptoms you have on the list, the more likely it is you have estrogen dominance. And if you do think this is reflective of your physical state then you would be doing yourself a big favor to get that book I mentioned... and read it... and try some of the things the book suggests...

Some people go to the John Lee website where they have online questionaires that will basically point you in the same direction as this list.

And remember --- Your health is far more important than whether you ever accomplish your NBE goals. If you are using an herb or ovary program and begin to develop this list of symptoms then beware... Nobody is going to see your big old rack if you are sick in bed or worse yet pushing up daisies ---

Guard your health,
waxingmoon




hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
January 31 2008, 10:45 PM

I do have several of those but they come and go... like the moodiness and anxiety I don't have those every day. However I am definitely a very nervous and anxious person... But since you suggest that one doesn't necessairly need to have all of the symptoms, I think I am going to try buy some today or tomorrow as I've been on a little stall test with my NBE pills and its the right time in my cycle right now.

If I can only buy one that is in a jar and is not a pump type of bottle how will I know how much to put on? just a tiny little dot on my finger will suffice? Do I need to put it on once or twice a day? thanks dear



This message has been edited by Hopeful88 on Jan 31, 2008 10:47 PM





Woolly Sheep
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 1 2008, 5:30 AM

Ok nevermind I went to 2 different health stores (including GNC) and couldn't find any ones that were USP grade.



Woolly Sheep
(no login)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 1 2008, 1:10 PM

I bought my pc from an internet store (natural pc, usp grade) and it was really affordable. Cant remember who it was but it was recommended to me by someone on this site - the brand i'm using is the NOW pc. The total cost in cad was about $11.50...



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 1 2008, 7:01 PM

What is USP grade?

Also a quation to the PC experts - is it possible that one would be progesterone defficient / estrogen dominant, but that the symptoms, especially PMS wouldn't express because of being on BCP? I've been on the pill sicne I was 15 and I don't remeber if I had PMS before that and if I did I probably wouldn't know it had anything to do with my periods. But when I went off the BCP a couple of years ago I got a really horrible PMS. But that could have been exaggerated by the sudden withdrawal of external hormones. I have a few symptoms of that list, but there are many those that you can't know if you have. I dunno if I have policystic ovaries. How could I know whether I'm prog. defficient / estrogen dominant or not at all?




Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 1 2008, 10:58 PM

it means that it reaches the United States Pharmacopeia standards and testing I believe...



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 1 2008, 11:21 PM

Hi Moon,
The USP on the label of progesterone cream identifies the substance as being bio-identical to our body's natural progesterone. Those creams that do not have USP behind the progesterone in the ingredients label will not be useful as a progesterone supplement.

As far as your questions about estrogen dominance I would say if you have just one or two symptoms on the list then you may not be affected by this condition. You will notice the symptom list includes quite a lot of things that might be associated with other conditions (hypothyroidism for example). The term 'estrogen dominance' was coined by Dr. John Lee as a description of a wide variety of symptoms that coincided with a lack of progesterone and were relieved by the use of supplemental progesterone.

PMS might very well have been masked by the BCP because you would not have ovulated when on the pill and ovulation generally makes PMS worse.

Yes, without testing, some of those conditions like polycystic ovaries are impossible to know - but the symptoms of conditions might be present. If you do not have very many symptoms then maybe this is not the 'tag' for you.

I was without a doubt estrogen dominant. The list of symptoms was the first time I ran across something that 'summed up' my life. Upon my first application of progesterone cream I knew it was right for me. There was no doubt in my mind. Therefore, I am not all that helpful in giving insight in cases where there are just a couple of symptoms.

I will say this however. Using progesterone cream at the levels Dr. Lee suggested is not very risky. If the cream is applied to thinned skin areas with good blood supply, very little progesterone will be stored in fat. This means that a person could 'try it out' with very little risk even if they were not progesterone deficient. If you did try it out and your symptoms responded then I would say you were estrogen dominant and to continue use of PC.

It is very complicated. Yes, it is a hormone and there are some risks, just like with any hormone use. With proper use though, the risks are minimal. Better though to be thoroughly informed before using this.

waxingmoon



Hopeful88
(no login)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 2 2008, 12:21 AM

What you are describing, about reading a list of symptoms and knowing it isyou is how i feel about the list of androgen symptoms but I have that under control now for quite some time...



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 2 2008, 9:42 AM

Thank you for your clarifications Waxingmoon! Here's the thing - I have between 9 and 15 symptoms from that list (15 when I include the symptoms from when I wasn't on BCP). But like you said, most of those (especially the ''mental'' ones) are also symptoms of other disorders. On the other hand, I answer to most others with ''don't know'' and for many I'm too young to show. I answer to only 3 with definite no. One last question - if I was to try a progesterone targeting routine, which one do you think it would be better to go with - PC or vitex?



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 2 2008, 5:55 PM

Moon,
If you are currently on BCP then the progesterone cream would probably not work for you. The artificial progestins of the BCP will block the receptors from the PC and you would likely have no benefit or little benefit.

The vitex however would be a good choice because it would promote the production of progesterone in your body. There would still be some competition between progestins and your body's progesterone, but you may be able to make headway with this better than PC.

If you are not on BCP, I still think vitex might be the better choice since your symptoms are not as abundant. It will take about 3 months for the vitex to begin to have a notable effect, but it should improve some symptoms. You would not have as much immediate effect, but I have never found a reference that indicated you could ever create too much progesterone by using vitex - therefore this route probably is safer.

waxingmoon



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 2 2008, 9:43 PM

Thanks Waxingmoon! I have been considering vitex for a while, will probably give it a go sometime later on.



Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 3 2008, 8:04 PM

Vitex I know I can find at my local health stores so I think I will try it sometime later on as well...



Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 3 2008, 9:27 PM

Some people have ''shrunk'' with vitex, but the prevailing opinion is that that is simply getting rid of bloating / water retention. Still some people weren't pleased. But if you don't have much or any lutheal swelling, then you needn't worry.



Jackie
(no login)
?
February 4 2008, 2:57 AM

What does all this mean? BCP, USP, PC... I am quite sure that I am estrogen dominant and I would like to get Progesterone cream but I don't know what kind to get... BCP, PC, etc... And what brand... Could someone please help me?? SO confusing. :[




Woolly Sheep
(Login Boobsrock4life)
Re: Question concerning Progesterone...
February 5 2008, 5:15 PM

Moon, The progesterone i was talking about was the natural one, it came in a blue bottle of some sort and was USP micronized. I think you might have the facts mixed a little bit. Natural progesterone and phytoestrogens dont add to your body's hormone levels. Please do a research on this so you can confirm this, as we even studied this in reproduction in my biology class. These hormones bind to the receptops that your body already has that supposedly your own hormones should bind to, once these hormones bind to them, your body's hormones no longer have any more receptops to bind too and prolonged usuage tricks the anterior pituary gland to stop producing this hormones because it thinks your body already has enough. This is also why when women want to use natural hormones they have to use high doses that are enough to atleast have an effect for NBE, which is another reason why most commercial NBE products dont work, the doses are too small, not that the grade of their herbs, or the herbs themselves are not efficient enough. Look at an example of women who have experienced a large amount of growth in this forum, like Eve and Erica and you see most of their regimen consisted of estrogen, If you use progesterone, it is a well know fact it acts as an antagonist against estrogen, so in any case it is like you are telling your body, please grow my boobs with this estrogen am feeding you, and then at the same time you are feeding it something that says, well dont grow my boobs with this hormone am feeding you.

It is very important that people should understand that themain hormone necessary for NBE is estrogen, but unfortunately estrogen alone is not a very good thing because it can lead to mitosis gone bad, and what is mitosis gone bad? Simply cancer, were your body just keeps reproducing cells on and on and well unfortunately to a certain extent that is what we need our body to do for healthy breast tissue growth. Progesterone however is also important for the shape of the breast and the way the breast forms, i.e making sure it goes through all the tanner stages of growth appropraitely. For women who had stunted growth, it is possible that progesterone could help as they include it in hormone therapy and all, also for women who are estrogen dominant, it could help, because it counteracts the effects of the estrogen dominance to a certain extent, hopefully the healthy level to which it brings the estrogen is efficient enough for breast growth.

This said, everyone is different and people react differently to things, but this is what I have learned so far.

Beth

[admin]

Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
May 28 2009 at 9:44 PM Jessie (no login)
Hello All,
I'm just looking into NBE. Based on Dr. Lee's symptoms list I'm normal estrogen and low progesterone and high androgens. Any suggestions on an approach to NBE for someone in my position?

In terms of my physical stats. I tend to gain weight on my hips and thighs. On top I'm a 34A. 21 years old, no kids, non-smoker.

Thanks!




mrshuy
(Login mrshuy)
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
May 31 2009, 10:57 AM

Hi,
i think you should raise your progesterone and lower your androgen.

Vitex herb and extract will help you increase progesterone.
Natural Progesterone may help you as well. but make sure you do careful research before using it. I think Waxingmoon program is very helpful for you as she is progesterone deficient.

I ask Vortex health company. They advised me to use Nettle root to lower my androgen.

Hope that this may help.





Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
May 31 2009, 6:27 PM

If you are low progesterone then you would be having cycle related problems and possibly some thick/long peach fuzz on your face and possibly upperneck.

Are you on BC? This would skew the online tests.

High androgens are typically seen with acne and high libido. Hair loss would be a sign of DHT which is more of a potent androgen as opposed to just having high testosterone.

Do any of the above conditions apply?

For someone your age, assuming all is normal and ignoring the online questionaires, take a look at EVE's program. Her name on the board is EveM.



This message has been edited by Wahaika on May 31, 2009 6:28 PM




Lisa121
(no login)
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
June 1 2009, 11:24 PM

Hi Mrshuy,
the advice above is probably worth a try, the vitex takes about three months to work though and I went through some strange phases with it for the first 5-6 months of taking it, so you would have to commit for at least 6-9 months of taking it. Don't get freaked out by some strange side effects, and you may lose some boobage to start off with as it reduces water retention and swelling. Oh, and my bottomised weight gain stopped with taking the vitex.
As for the Nettle root, that is great in reducing testosterone. Depending on how high your levels are one to two 500mg nettle root capsules a day, as you get it from vortexhealth, should help. I have very high in testosterone levels and I take two a day, which has helped lower my androgens, at least I believe so. I got blood tests done for it before and after taking it for about two months and they went down a whole notch. My doctor said levels do vary within cycles but with me all the elevated ones had went down quite a lot so I don't really believe it was due to that, plus I can feel the change when I persistently take the nettle versus to slacking on it.
If you only have slightly elevated levels, which means not much extra black hair growth in your face or acne all over your body, like said above, or hair growth up to your belly button, around your nipples etc., then you are probably fine with just the 500 mg dose.
I would always start with lower dosages for two to three months and see how I go and I have went well with that when I followed my own advice.
Good luck!



Jessie
(no login)
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
June 2 2009, 5:53 AM

Hi Wahaika,

I'm responding to the question you asked me.

In terms of low progesterone, the only cycle related problem is that I have moderate to severe cramps when I am on my period. Also, I do have peach fuzz on my upper neck area. I don't think it's too thick though.

As far as the androgens go, I have significantly more hair than most girls. However, I'm Indian and my dad is a hairy, hairy man so it may just be genetic. My hair has begun to thin since I was about 18 or so. Again, my mom's hair is thinning and she has large breasts, so it may be genetic as well.

In your opinion, would you recommend trying Eve's program or a different approach.

Thanks in advance,
Jessie



Jessie
(no login)
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
June 2 2009, 6:01 AM

Forgot to mention, no acne, but oily skin and a fairly normal libido.



mrshuy
(Login mrshuy)
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
June 2 2009, 11:29 AM

Hi Lisa,
your answer has encouraged me a lot.
I have started taking Vitex and Flax seed for about 3 days.
I will order the Nettle root soon.
I also want to add fenugreek as well because it can increase my prolactin (Vitex decreases prolactin which is very bad in NBE).

Have a nice day




Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Suggestions for low progesterone and high androgens...
June 3 2009, 2:49 AM

Yep, I still think that Eve's program would be good for you.

[admin]

Is Progesterone needed?
November 2 2006 at 9:51 PM
Miss Monet (Login friskyflirt)
SENIOR MEMBER
Question: When doing NBE you need to find both estrogen-like herbs ("phytoestrogen") *AND* progesterone-like herbs ("progestogen") to balance your system out and keep your body safe, right? I've read somewhere that if you only take estrogen and you don't have any progesterone to balance things out that you can risk developing uterine cancer.

If this is true, what herbs are progesterone-like? I know a lot of estrogen-like herbs (like Fenugreek, Fennel, Soy, etc.) but not progesterone-like.

Or does this only apply if you have a progesterone deficiency?

Thanks, girls!



Mu-mu
(Login mu-mu)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
November 3 2006, 12:29 AM

I use progesterone cream in the second half of my cycle. I also take all the "estrogen" herbs (fenugreek, SP, soy), so I'm hoping I'm balancing the things. I'm not sure though; I wish somebody more knowledgeable would answer this question (SugarQ?).
Mu-mu




yvonne
(Login yvonne03)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
November 3 2006, 2:23 AM

i agree....i took those tests and they said that i have deficiencies.....but i don't know how that will affect my NBE.....someone please help us!!



Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 5 2008, 2:49 PM

Bump!
I want the answer.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 5:30 PM

Hi Miss Monet,
Here is my take on the subject.

1) If a woman is balanced in her hormones when she begins NBE she will be more likely to achieve results. She does not need to increase either her estrogen or her progesterone. She will likely be able to grow using herbs that are known for their galactogouge effect. (yes, some of those herbs are phytoestrogens, but I believe they work not due to an increase of estrogen, but rather 'other' reasons (ie -the herbs that prepare breasts for milk production = bigger size))

2) If a woman is unbalanced in her hormones she will need to balance them first to achieve results. The question here is what hormones are too low and what hormones are too high. There are quite a few combinations - low progesterone (known as estrogen dominance) - high androgen (too much testosterone) - low estrogen - low thyroid - high thyroid... There can also be combinations of them -(low estrogen + lower progesterone = estrogen dominance is just one example).

There is a great difficulty in this since most people are unlikely to do salivary or blood tests prior to NBE -and some do not even know that these imbalances exist before beginning NBE. Once you begin to add in herbs you can make a complicated system even more complicated. The online questionaires are helpful, but confirmation through salivary testing would be the most accurate way for a woman to know if her hormones are balanced or unbalanced.

3)Herbs can be used to bring a woman into balance.

Estrogenic herbs are by far the most plentiful. Some have even higher estrogen effect than our body's natural estrogen - so beware. Unopposed estrogen (too much estrogen for the progesterone your body produces) is linked to cancer, blood clots and strokes as well as other symptoms.

Progesterone promoting herbs are very limited. Vitex is really the only reasonable herb out there. Some herbs will bind to the progesterone receptors but actually lower overall progesterone. Of course a woman can use Progesterone cream (USP grade) - but this needs to be done only if a woman has researched the correct amount, application sites and timing. Excess progesterone is harmful and using too much progesterone cream can cause this. Some cancers are progesterone sensitive and some conditions like very large uterine fibroids respond badly to progesterone use. So here again - do your research and be wary.

---------------------------------------------------------

Will taking estrogenic herbs without supplementing progesterone lead to an increased risk of cancer? Well since most estrogenic herbs are actually lower in estrogen effect than our own estrogen - the answer would be probably not. The research is still not absolutely conclusive, but most of it says there is not increase cancer risk.

But of course that depends on the herb. Any estrogenic herb that has greater estrogen effect in the body could be more risky. There is a list of estrogenic and progesteronic herbs on the Information on Herbs thread that I posted some time back. You can see which herbs are more potent than our body's own hormones.

__________________________________________________________________________

Now here is my advice for those who have symptoms of imbalance in estrogen/progesterone. Jackie hit the nail on the head in another thread when she said that using vitex a few months prior to beginning NBE was a wise choice. Here is why that would be the case...

Progesterone is used by our body as the starting point of many other hormones - estrogen being one of those. Progesterone also activates dormant estrogen receptors. By using a progesterone enhancing herb you will balance any estrogen dominance you might have (meaning increase low progesterone levels), you will increase your body's natural estrogen and you will increase the number of estrogen receptors for that estrogen to bind too. End result = Big Honking Hooters ...lol - or perhaps a modest cup or two...


Anyway... before I yak on any further... hope this has helped,
waxingmoon



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 5:57 PM

Waxingmoon - I thought that no phytoestrogens came even close to the strength of the pill / HRT and those come nowhere near the strength of the body's endogenous estrogen? I know there is a certain quantity (?300mg) of soy isoflavones that is supposed to be equivalent to 1 premarin tablet but in general aren't phytoestrogens considered to be weak in activity per receptor site they block if you see what I mean, which is why stalling occurs? I'm sure it was Moon that said this when I was asking about how herbs compare to BCP.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 7:58 PM

Louise,
Here is an excerpt from something I posted on the Herbs section. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/484503/th...rone+herbs )

The original article was talking about the potential of herbs affecting estrogen positive cancer cells. It refers to herbs that contain estrogenic potential and how they compare to our naturally created estrogen:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" Any herb or spice with a score above 400 has greater estrogenic activity than estradiol.

TABLE 2

Effects of ER(estrogen receptor) binding herbs on ER (+) Breast Cancer Cells


Coumestrol 2500
Licorice 1600
Jumiper 100
Bloodroot 0
Red Clover 3000
Nutmeg 200
Mistletoe 500
White Clover 500
Dong Quai 200
Yucca 2600
Thyme 2
Damiana 200


Table 2 indicates that coumestrol, red clover, mistletoe, don quai, hops, licorice, white clover, yucca and motherwort are more estrogenic than estradiol! For people at risk for breast cancer avoiding the aforementioned herbs and spices seems prudent."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last part of that statement is the opinion of the author that quoted the study - it is not the finding of the study itself, but I think it is a valid opinion.

So what this shows is that several of the herbs that people routinely use for NBE are potentially more potent than natural estrogen. This is a cause for concern if these herbs are over used because they could cause a person to develop imbalances in regard to estrogen.

Now the table above does not talk about dosages - that is in this next table:

_____________________________________________________________________

TABLE 1

Herbs and Spices Containing ER (estrogen receptor) Binding Components

Micrograms of Estradiol Equivalents/200 cc or 2 gm Dry Herb


Soy milk 8/200cc
Yucca 0.5
Licorice 4/2 gm
Tumeric 0.5
Red Clover 3
Hops 0.5
Mandrake 3
Verbenna 0.5
Bloodroot 2
Yellow Dock 0.5
Thyme 2
Sheep sorrel 0.5


It is important to understand that just because a food, herb or spice has ER binding capability, it does not mean that it inhibits estrogen formation or acts as a natural aromatase inhibitor. In fact, the total opposite is true. In short, Table 1 indicates that the 12 listed agents have estrogenic activity at low physiological doses.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, what this table is telling us that these herbs are going to have a certain number of milligrams of estrogen per 2 grams of herbs. Now remember for many of these herbs the estrogen is less potent than what our body makes. BUT!! The red clover and licorice are more potent than our body's estrogen.

I know it is all very complicated even with these charts however I have never found any other reference that can help us to know just how much hormone we might be adding to our bodies.

Red clover and licorice should be used sparingly. (pueraria mirifica (PM) is another highly estrogenic herb but was not included in the study) They are the ones that will potentially do the most disruption of natural hormone balance. They are the ones to be avoided by estrogen dominant women.

And I know the tables do not list fenugreek or fennel. That is because they are not considered very estrogenic. They work for NBE by a different means - as galactogogues.

I am of the opinion that most women do not need to increase estrogen in order to enhance breast size. A thorough review of this forum will show that those who use highly estrogenic herbs to gain size are getting temporary results and also developing very worrisome symptoms in time.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



This message has been edited by waxingmoon on Mar 6, 2008 8:00 PM





Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:10 PM

If the galactogogues don't work for a woman though than would you say she should try the stronger estrogenic herbs? or no?



Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:28 PM

ZINGGG !!!! :]



Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:35 PM

ps-
Can someone tell me exactly what "PM" is.. I'm not in on all the .. abbreviations for herbs. And I searched it on the forum and nothing came up.




Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:38 PM

It's Pueraria Mirfica, there's a special forum for it here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/484965/



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:39 PM

Hopeful,
I am not sure I would ever suggest someone use the more potent estrogen herbs. Faerycat had some growth using an estrogen based program and it really came back to haunt her.

Here is a link to her program page:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/482052/th...+Programme

Be sure to read some of the last posts she made on her program page. Yes she got initial growth with mirifica. (I think she eventually used WU and other things as well) Yes, you can see from her picture page that indeed her results seemed fantastic - BUT her methods negatively impacted her health and she lost most of her results.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Your health is far more important than a big ole bushel o' boob. Nobody is going to see those honkers if you are sick in bed. (or worse yet... tits up in the coffin... urgh)

I personally think it would be a lot worse to have gained as much as Faerycat did and then LOSE it and my health than to have never gained any boob at all.

And by the way - I am not ragging on Faerycat. I hope she is doing well and her health has returned. She was just the best example I could think of to point out what a dangerous road we could tread if we push the estrogenic herbs.

waxingmoon




Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:43 PM

That's so true, as nonexistant as my breasts are they don't bother me soo much that I'm willing to risk for my health for them. there are days when I really wish I had bigger ones but in general I don't worry about it too much. Thanks, and I hope faery is doing well too.



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:51 PM

Do you think I'd be ok with coumestrol baring in mind I can't take warfarin because it gives me nosebleeds?

I'm seriously considering ditching WU and trying some strong separate herbs, I feel like I need less fenugreek! Was thinking soy + red clover + hops + barley + oats + vit C, one fair size dose before bed with 15g milk protein + 15g soy protein, + 1tsp EPO / borage oil + 1tsp flax....maybe some goat's rue...+ green papaya and 1 hour super suction BB to tell it where to go!



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 10:02 PM

Louise,
If you are asking me I would say NO don't do it. Do not increase the estrogenic herbs. Read Fearycat's program page. You have a lot to lose if you do the wrong thing.

A good program page to check out for someone who gained and kept the gains and her health is Surf. She used mostly Fenugreek and Fennel along with SP. She made an impressive 5 inch gain in about 10 months. (she is my hero...lol)

Surf's success is one of the reasons I talk about the positive effects of the galactogouges. Faerycat is one of the reasons I talk about the 'horrors' of estrogenic herbs.

Take care, be wary, don't lose sight of your long term goals (healthy old age),
waxingmoon



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 10:14 PM

I really feel that nothing is strong enough, even though I'm small I usually need high doses of meds when I'm sick, also I think the dianette is probably over-ruling the herbs or the metformin stopping their absorption, I've tried upping the WU dose but it hasn't really made any difference and I definitely had more feelings when I took less WU (i.e. less fenugreek) and added separate hops, soy, barley and oats. The red clover's just an idea because I did some research a while back and it seems RC and soy are similar to PM which I've been advised not to take. I really find herbs soooo annoying esp when suction is so simple!

Obviously I don't want to drop dead but I'm willing to go fairly far to look how I want, I already have a couple of different problems that may make me infertile...my main worry would be my hair dropping out, my skins' not that great at the moment and I could do with more weight loss. I've been taking WU since June and not really felt it's done much, just want to make the most of all this stuff, optimum health can wait as long as I don't get too sick to work.



MIles
(no login)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 7 2008, 9:32 PM

Hi Waxing Moon,

I was just wondering how you know that Faery Cat lost most of her growth. I couldn't find the info on her program page and it looks like realy breast tissue growth from her pics and not just swelling or something like that.




waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 1:16 PM

Hi Miles,
I believe this was information she posted on this main forum instead of in her program page. I am pretty sure I am remembering it correctly. She began experiencing a lot of low thyroid symptoms and said she had lost a lot, if not all of her growth.

I will try to find those posts this weekend so I can make sure I am not mis-remembering things. I know for sure the health problems she had were pretty scary -she attributed it all to her use of phytoestrogens.

waxingmoon




hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 4:37 PM

Here's one of her posts: http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...1%21%21%21

Hope this helps



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 5:55 PM

Thanks Hopeful,

Yes that was one of the first links she posted when she began to feel ill. She reported a loss of an inch in breast size along with other frightening symptoms. She at first thought it was candidiasis, but later after research began to believe it was the estrogen that messed her up.

She tried to recover using progesterone cream, but did not have initial good results and lost even more breast size. Here is another link to our further discussions:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...1%21%21%21

So, I was remembering correctly - it affected not only her health but she lost her gains as well. Beware those herbs that contain high amounts of estrogen.

(just an observation on my part... How many out there would be willing to go through all the physical illness that Faerycat went through???

Would you be willing to be seriously ill if you got to keep your increased breast size??? How much does having larger breasts really mean to you??? Is it more important than your health??

It is just food for though - and a warning about letting our obsessions for bigger breasts out way our desire for good health.)

Take care everyone,
waxingmoon



Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 8:28 PM

I would have to consider whether I could afford a lot of time off work because I have my own company so I wouldn't get paid, but there isn't much I wouldn't go for to have the figure I want after. Obviously it's no good if I've gone bald or something but to be ill and recover and look better after I could live with. I've had quite a lot of health problems already so maybe I'm less fussy.



Miles
(no login)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 9 2008, 12:42 AM

Thanks Waxing Moon and Hopeful! That's good information to know.

I've now quit the estrogenic herbs I had been using for the last 9 months (had grown a bit, then lost it all) and am using progesterone cream the second half of my cycle. I will begin Vitex with my next cycle. It may be my imagination, or wishfull thinking, but it would appear that the cellulite is already better and so is the bloating! We'll see. I'll keep you posted.

Miles




hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 10 2008, 5:20 AM

Oh as much as I want to grow some boobs finally I would never risk my health I want a baby so badly in a few years! That sounds so awful and old fashioned but it's true I can't help my craving for a baby...

[admin]

Help with progesterone or wild yam
December 1 2006 at 2:58 AM Surf (Login Surf.)
EVE MEMBERS
There seems to be a lot of questions relating to progesterone deficiency, in particular wild yam. I've been doing some reading about it and have seen information that appears to be conflicting.
Some say use prior to NBE. Some say to use in the luteal phase (day 15-28 of your cycle). Some say to use once every 4 days. Some say to apply directly to the breasts. Some say don't apply to fatty areas of the body.
UGH!
Does anyone have accurate information on when, how much, and why wild yam should be used?!?!?!?
Thanks so much!

Gigando growing boobie blessings to all of the boobie goddesses everwhere!




Anonymous
(Login Magickwomun)
Wild Yam
December 1 2006, 4:08 AM

Hi Surf,

I've noticed the same thing...If you haven't found this already, here's a link that will probably confuse you even more! Your photos are inspiring btw, most impressive results!

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRela...ldyam.html



cher
(Login cherasia)
Re: Help with progesterone or wild yam
December 1 2006, 1:14 PM

I got reply from Dr wong from http://www.totalityofbeing.com/ArticleCollections.htm


Howdy Cher:


The reason for that opinion is that absorption is delayed when the progesterone is applied to areas of subcutaneous fat. Other researchers though say that they prefer those sites for application as it creates a pool of progesterone available for a longer time to the body. I prefer application to the sexual organs for the physiological reason that there are more hormone receptor sites there than anywhere else on the bodies surface and absorption and utilization is there fore faster and more complete.


Be well and God bless,
Dr. Wong



diana
(Login Diana1978)
SENIOR MEMBER
wow
December 1 2006, 2:46 PM

that was great that he answered. kind of makes sense. good luck.




faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Help with progesterone or wild yam
December 1 2006, 3:10 PM

Hi Surf,

Yes, I too have done a lot of reading about progesterone and a lot of it is fairly conflicting.

An important point # The bit where you say - Some say to use in the luteal phase (day 15-28 of your cycle).

Yes, that may be the case for perimenopausal or menopausal women........because they are no longer producing progesterone, or if they are, the levels are very low.

On a healthy younger female, during day 15-28, her own natural progesterone levels rise. This is why she gets luteal swelling. Breasts are ususually always larger in this phase. On the onset of a period, (day 1), the prog levels drop to zero again and so the swelling goes away.

Personal thoughts on the matter would be to take it between (day 1 and 14 of the cycle), if one isn't perimenopausal. But am not sure of the outcome on the body for elevating these levels througout the month. I can only imagine that it would cause permanent swollen breasts. But as the body is supposed to rise and fall with regards to hormone levels, this may be a dangerous thing in the long term. Then again, it may not. It is said that progesterone is the main hormone responsible for breast growth........not estrogen, as many are led to believe.

I also feel that many women embarking on NBE will notice what she thinks is growth in the first month.........and so on. But when embarking upon NBE, one becomes very aware of ones own body and is prone to measure on a regular basis. So yes, even without the use of herbs, one will see growth each month, but this is caused by elevated prog levels between day 15-28.

I'm not too keen to try out prog cream as I've read that it can collect within the tissues, especially in the fatty areas. That idea kinda freaks me out a bit.

Happy healthy growing!!

Love

=^_^= x





faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Help with progesterone or wild yam
December 1 2006, 3:13 PM

Ooops........PS

Dr Wong just may be wrong.

Just because he is labelled a doctor, doesn't make him right. I'd be very wary about putting that stuff on my sexual bits......EEK!

Take care!!

x