03-01-2016, 02:12 AM
Dong Quai, whats your thoughts
May 30 2006 at 5:14 PM Snowflake (Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
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would it be good in a program or not. Heard anything bad about it??? Anything good???
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 30 2006, 6:38 PM
its a herb is said to act like isoflavins and its added to many herbal estrogen suppliments. as far as weither its would be useful in a NBE routine, i dont think so. many women in the old beboard forum used it in their routines and no one has reported any kind of results. many scientific evidence that that support or deny the claims that DQ is effective at supplimenting estrogen are mixed. IMO when there is so much flip flop then i would say that its not worth a shot if you have many other good alternatives. the main thing about DQ is that it contains isoflavins. we misunderstand what these estrogens are and what they can do. first of all most women with small breasts dont need more estrogen to grow breasts. adding estrogen (of any sort) ususally doesnt do anything to breast size but in RARE cases women can get sensations and at the most they might get some fullness. so most women dont gain cupsizes with estrogen. another thing is that phyoestrogens dont replace or suppliment natural estrogen. phyoestrogens might stop symptoms that care caused by estrogen deficientcy but there really isnt anything that shows it caused breast enlargement.
any how DQ is not considered a very strong phyoestrogenic herb like soy, licorice root, red clover etc. and even these strong phyoestrogens havnt totally proven themselves effective yet. im no herbalist but from what i have researched over the years it has lead me to discard phytoestrogens completely. if you need estrogen then take estrogen not phytoestrogens cause at least you know for sure what you are dealing with. you can do this by blocking hormones that inhibit estrogen like Saw Palmetto or drugs like sprionolactone(spironolactone has be known by the medical community to cause breast enlargement as a side effect). you can try to convert testosterone into estrogens by taking AA or oils that convert into AA like EPO and Borage. You can suppliment with testosterone, progesterone, Pregnenolone and the body will balance itself out and convert testosterone into estrogen without much help. or you cang go to your doc and get a prescription for estradiol or a BCP. doing this is almost a sure fire way of getting the the right estrogen (estradiol) that is known to cause breast enlargement for sure. but remember if there is no guarantee that estradiol will work most of the time to cause NBE then its lottary odds that phyoestrogens will cause NBE if its not yet proven today. mice and monkeys all develop mammary tissue with estradiol and progesterone just like humans. and they have been given herbs like QU and there really hasnt been much mention of the amount of fat that gets deoposited in the breast or the size of the mammary glands. normally we are the only mammals that have inflated mammary glands all the time while other mammals only have inflated mammary glands when they are ready to mate and when they are pregnant. but adding estrogens or herbs that are estrogenic should mimic the hormone levels that would cause other mammal's mammary glands to enlarge or develop but im still looking for promising data shows that.
i dont want to start a massive debate or anything. there are women who claim it DQ worked for them but im not yet convinced. im might be wrong or maybe another member night have a good site with interesting info that could say different. but there is one thing most women here would agree with and that is there are already so many NBE herbs and methods that seem to be very promising and its not a good idea to experiment wit DQ with so much contravary over weither or not phyoestrogens do cause breast enlargement. but if i had to pick herbs that are are estrogenic then i would pick red clover, and soy. at the very least these herbs have been in several NBE routines that have been successful for a few women.
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS Hey Thanks SugarQ May 30 2006, 6:55 PM
Thanks SugarQ. Been searching myself, some stuff about it sounds so good. but then I don't always understand all the scientific stuff I am reading. I don't think I will bother with it then , cause fennel and SP and wild yam seem to be working really good for me and I feel really good overall. No complaints! So thanks again SugarQ!!!!!
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 30 2006, 10:45 PM
SugarQ you say that women with small breasts don't need more estrogen to grow.So why do we take estrogenic herbs?What is that which helps us grow?
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 31 2006, 5:20 AM
most of the NBE herbs women seem to be doing well with are not strong estrogens but rather they stimulate prolactin. if you go through most of the success cases and look a their routines you will see fenugreek, fennel popping up most of the time. you will also notice most women are doing massages which stimulate prolactin also.
you need to understand that during puberty when women are starting to reach their the body mass needed to start a menstral cycle ,growth hormone spikes and so does estrogen. those two working together while that girl is gaining weight and they both will start to deposite fat in key feminine areas (the breasts the hips, butt and thigns). for every girl, the proportion varies. some bodies prefer to deposite fat down low then up in the chest. but the main thing is that during puberty estrogen and hormones that convert into estrogen have the most influence on breast size. if fact there have been many studies where teens where give hormones like estrogen, testosterone and progesterone and results show a significant difference in breast size in teens (differences measured in cupsizes). now after puberty our bodies reach a balance and we start to store fat differently. when women are given the same hormones like estrogen there isnt a significant change in cupsize. drug brands that manufacture estradiol only mention breast size changes are rare side effect and the difference is very small and temparary. estrogen (after puberty) will just store fat all over the body over time. some women are lucky enough to gain most of it in the boobs but thats rare. so the key for NBE isnt adding more estrogen. the difference with teens and adults might have something to do with HGH , prolacin and progesterone levels. teens have higher higher HGH and estrogen levels then adults and lower/unstable progesterone levels. infact as soon as a teen girl starts her period ( when progesterone is present) her breast growth slows and estrogen levels start to lower a bit and stablize into the natural hormonal cycle we all know and love. before a girl starts her period estrogen is dominant and progesterone is almost non existant and breast grows the most and very fast during that time.
now think about it. if the problem was just low estrogen levels for most women then most of us can safely get a prescription for estradiol for our doctors. if we all did a hormone test it would if fact show that most of us are actually normal to estrogen dominant and progesterone difficient.no good doctor would give anyone with normal levels of estrogen more estrogen cause that would be stupid and dangerouse. you can gain weight natually to grow breasts cause more fat will mean more estrogen (the same as if you were to suppliment withe estradiol) but gaining enough weight to cause a significant change in breast size takes several months if not a few years (just like in puberty). you will notice that most women on NBE who had success gain at least 1 cupsize within a year and most didnt gain too much weight to do it. this may be due to prolactin which workes with estrogen to store fat maininly in breast. before massages became popular on forums most women would just take the herbs and many of them didnt have results to share. the first girl to change things was lucille cause she was the first woman to put up b/a pictures that actually showed a significant change is size and the main difference was that she started doing the chi massage. you dont even need to add estrogen to get prolactin to store fat. our bodies produce enough estrogen and prolactin will work with whats in our bodies already. if a woman as normal or slightly lower estrogen levels, breast growth night take a bit longer but it will happen if everything else is in balance.
now some women might have high estrogen levels. like fat girls. then why dont they continue to grow if their estrogens are so high? the reason is that for women who are estrogen dominant or excess their estrogen receptores start to down regulate. this is usually do to the fact that we have a hormonal cycle and low progesterone . when the estrogen receptors are not senstive to estrogen anymore then you can pump yourself full of estrogen and it will do nothing. these women dont need more estrogen but they they need is progesterone. infact with already large breasts women who take a BCP with a strong progestin will start growing breasts again. the reason being that progesterone will resensitize estrogen receptores. and if you are on a NBE routine and you are stimulating prolactin, prolactin will actually increase the number of estrogen receptors in the breast too. now many women will try herbs, massages and progesterone and not grow. it may be because they still havent reached the right balance for their bodies but it could also mean that their HGH levels (specifically IGF-1) is too low. YOU CANT GROW ANYTHING WITHOUT HGH. YOU CAN HAVE THE RIGHT BALANCE OF EVERYTHING ELSE BUT WITHOUT HGH FACTORS YOU WOULD GET ANY GROWTH.
the key is balance not more estrogen and less testosterone. very few women respond to that formula and NBE isnt a one size fit all thing. most women dont know their natual hormornal balance so they wing it. its ok if you use prolactin stimulants. just about every woman in the world (with breasts and a menstral cycle) are capable of getting pregnant and breastfeed. thats the majore factor in responding well to prolactin. but there is a problem if you try herbs like fenugreek, fennel etc and you still dont grow afer 1 or 2 years then troubleshooting is much harder. these women need to know their balance to see if anything is out of place before they try NBE. the problem can be as simple as actually not having enough estrogen or it would be that genetically you breast wont grow no matter what hormonal changes you under go. in that case you need to look at other NBE methods.
Anonymous
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 31 2006, 1:07 PM
SugarQ (or anyone else), what is HGH?
Helen
(Login Helen_N)
EVE MEMBERS HGH; IGF-1 May 31 2006, 5:03 PM
HGH stands for Human Growth Hormone, the hormone that stimulates our body to grow. HGH secretion reaches its peak in the body during our teens, and we continue to produce it usually in short bursts during deep sleep.
Absorbed by our liver it's converted into growth factors, IGF-1 being the most important one. You can think of HGH as the hormone that "gets the ball rolling", but IGF-1 does most of the work
During puberty, we have massive amounts of growth hormone available to assist with breast growth. Our growth hormone levels start to decline after the age of 30. Our lifestyle (DIET, EXERCISE, SLEEP HABITS) can also have a significant impact on how much growth hormone our body produces.
And as SugarQ emphasized, without enough growth hormone, our body -and our breasts- simply wouldn't grow...
Helen xx
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 31 2006, 7:26 PM
SugarQ that was a great post!!!!!I am glad there are people like you in this forum that know many things and can help us like you do!I feel safe and I trust your opinion on the subject whatever it may be!
So if I got it right what we need for NBE to work is to stimulate prolactin by massage in order to make estrogen -receptors sensitive and then some estrogen to fill them?
Therefore, in theory any woman who massages regularly and eats estrogenic herbs in moderation (in order not to block the estrogen receptors) for a considerable period of time (eg.a year) is bound to develop breasts even without gaining weight?
I remember that in an old post of yours you had said that you were looking for an electric massager to start your personal NBE program.So is prolactin the key to breast growth success?How are you going with your program?Have you noticed any growth?
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 1 2006, 10:51 AM
Thanx everyone, this topic has been most instructive.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER to clarify for Anon June 1 2006, 5:24 PM
prolactin works with estrogen to store fat in the breast. prolactin also increases the number of estrogen receptors in the breast.
progesterone will increase the receptor's sensitivity. some women have enough progesterone to do this must most dont and thats why you might see many NBE books mention using progesterone cream if you dont get any growth or you stall. progesterone will also enlarge the breast by enlarging the mammary glands. this is usually tempurary but if you got enough estrogen and progesterone at work the hope is that over time the body will try to replace the glands with fat to make the results perminant and the tension produced by the enlarged glands will stimulate HGH to allow breast tissue to strech and grow at the same time.
there are 2 classes of NBE herbs there are the phyoestrogen and galactagogues (herbs that seem to stimulate prolactin). you can count herbs like Saw palmetto as 3 (they are Anti DHT) but most of us really dont need them. it has als been shown that a routine can work without them. i already said that herbs like fenugreek and fennel are stronger galactagogues then they are phyoestrogenic herbs. most people believe that becuase the work so well at causing NBE that it means they are estrogenic(i already explained that more estrogen doent mean breast growth). breastfeeding women use these herbs to increase their milk supply and estrogen isnt known to directly increase milk supply. in fact estrogen and progesterone are suppose to suppress milk production.
now phyoestrogens are used for balance and in some small way and in some people it may help them grow breasts but the thing is most of them are so weak and there is so little of the isoflavins in them that its hard to really see how it would help women in the normal to estrogen dominant range accomplish NBE. phyoestrogens will compete with our normal estrogen . now if these isoflavins snatch a receptor then they block the our bodies' nautral (stronger)estrogens from doing anything. isoflavins do, however mimic estrogen in a weak way but over all they are estrogen blockers. in the end we get an estrogen balance that is usually lower then what it normally would/should be. the body doesnt like isoflavins. our bodies were designed to respond to estradiol, estone and estriol but some substances are able to fit (loosely) in the receptors that respond to these estrogen. like a good compeditor our bodies will find a way around the isoflavins. it could lower the receptor sensitivity but isoflavins are already very weak and at the very least does still gives some activity that the body needs anyway. so the next best thing is to shoot up production of the stronger estrogens. now our bodies will make more estrogens with no place to go too. this is when we get an estrogen overload which is just as bad as having too little estrogen. you get no growth and if this high levels of estrogen last too long then its possible to get seriouse hormone related illnesses.
in women with low levels of estrogen, phyoestrogens will lift their estrogen levels up higher but the question is, would the weak estrogens be strong enough to stimulate breast enlargement. i dont know but maybe. there are a few routines that have herbs with strong estrogens like red clover, soy, and licorice root. many of the women that have reported results were also taking other herbs but at the very least these herbs didnt seem to interfere.but who knows? im not saying not to take phyoestrogens but rather to carefully take them. dont take them in the start of a new routine. wait to see if the galactagogues herbs work on their own. then you can try adding low dosages of phytoestrogens and ramp up the dosage slowly .
IMO i think phyoestrogen are a bit risky. its better to try to take your own natural levels of testosterone and try to either convert or block it.But this is just my opinion. its easier for me to reason away how to natually boost estrogen can help NBE but its still hard to explain now isoflavins actually (if at all) help with NBE.the usual explaination you get from sites that promote estrogenic herbs for NBE is that phyoestrogens mimic estrogen and estrogen means breast growth. i just explained how this is true but still very very wrong:
(recap)
1) phyoestrogens are 1000-100000x weaker. so they dont replace or substitute our bodies's natural estrogens.
2)more estrogen(of any kind) doesnt always mean breast growth
3)and in most cases phyoestrogens will block our bodies's natural estrogen overall or it may not be strong enough if you have, low estrogen, to stimulate breast enlargement.
i do have faith that phyestrogens can be used in some cases to help with NBE but its hard to say for whom it would work for. most women just do guess and check to pick their routine and hope they get lucky.
i hope this makes a bit more sense.
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 1 2006, 7:27 PM
So prolactin and progesterone are what actually a woman needs to grow ?I have read in a forum that progesterone may cause breasts to shrink.
Lisa 121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS SugarQ June 1 2006, 8:51 PM
Sorry to butt in guys, but SugarQ would you mind looking at the thread I made about herbs and how long they stay in the system? I would really appreciate your input and I forgot to put it into the subject line.
Thanks,
Lisa
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 2 2006, 4:17 AM
Lisa i will check your thread out ASAP.
and anon- progesterone is not known to cause shrinkage. in fact its mostly known to cause temparary breast enlargement of the breasts. with any NBE routine shrinkage is possible. its not the herbs'or the hormones fault but it happens. some women will enlarge a little. most of the time they wont even notice the size increase cause its so small and they dont feel any sensations or pain. then out of no where they shrink some. shrinkage doesnt happen very often but its possible. its also possible that some women (rare) will complain of shrinking to a smaller cupsize then they were originally. ive only heard of this happen 3 or 4 times over 3 years out of 8 of NBE forums. out of 1000s of members thats not too bad at all. most women who shrink will gain usually gain back everything they lost and then some. there are many reasons i can come up with that would explain why some women shrink. 1) could be that there is a hormonal shift of some sort 2) progesterone and prolactin will enlarge the breast glands and its possible but rare that the glands can actually push out fat that is already present to make room for milk production. this normally can happen to women who breast feed cause the glands will enlarge more then women who are just doing NBE. some women might be to sensitive to gland enlargement and their breasts will remove fat with only a little pressure. but its false to think that progesterone will just cause shrinkage or at least it shouldnt cause shrinkage. if i cant really think of how progesterone can directly cause shrinkage but it is known that progesterone will stimulate the thyroid and its known to slim down or remove fat form the Abs. it considered a fat burner which freak some women out cause they think that if they apply the cream to the breast that it would cause it to shrink. if applying the progesterone cream directly to the breast freaks anyone out you can still get alot of benifit from applying it to the wrists, ankles or any other areas that would allow for good absorption.
FACT: we know for sure that progesterone will help enlarge the breasts. its possible that with gland enlargement fat can be displaced but 90% of the time this doesnt happen.
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 2 2006, 12:59 PM
so progesterone is it good,bad or neutral for NBE?If I understood you must not apply it to your breasts but to your wrists or somewhere else?Casn progesterone cream be dangerous like GH?To who you would suggest to take it and how can anyone use it to see permanent results(I mean how can you prevent the enlarged glands from burning the fat or from shrinking because you don't breastfeed?)
Sorry for all these questions but I start to think NBE in a new approach after this thread.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 2 2006, 3:56 PM
if women who have been pregnant recently sometimes after giving birth their progesterone levels drop too low so when they start NBE they are too sensitive to prolactin and instead of growing breast they may start to lactate. so progesterone is important to these women. progesterone in women who have never been pregnant or had their last child more then 3 years ago can take it to enlarge their glands a little. gland enlargement causes tention which streches skin and tissue.breast growth through introducing a sustained tension was introduced by the brava and it seems to work but the device is so expensive unconfortable to wear. in vigin breasts it will usually only provide some fullness which is just enough that fat can still be deposited over time while the glands slowly shrink back rather then move fat out of the breast. it will also allow the estrogen receptors to work at their full potential to aide in storing fat. the cream needs to be applied in areas where the skin is thin so the cream can be absorbed best into the blood stream. the wrist and the ankles are popular areas but some creams can be applied vaginally while others contain strong enough carriers that it can be applied to the abs, but, legs. its a good idea to read the directions and the ingredients in the cream before purchasing. that will give you a good idea of the quality you are getting.
progesterone doent have too many negative size effects but one that comes up on NBE forums is Acne. which is possible cause progesterone can be converted into tesosterone so thats a possibility. if you overdose (apply the whole container of cream) it can cause drowsiness which isnt life threatening but you still want go get checked out to make sure. if you use too much it can disrupt your hormone balance . its usually the higher dosages that are responsible for causing NBE so you need to carefully work your way up to a lowest effective dosage for your body. a good cream started at 500mg/oz so and you can take 1/2-1/4 tbsp 2x a day. you so can work up to the 1/2 tbsp 2x a day and see how that works for you. you sould use the cream for no more then 4 months and lower it dosage down to nothing. like with BCP the body will eventually just stop responding to the cream and by about 4 months you could start loosing some of the fullness causes by the hormones. you can take a breast for 4 months and then try the cream again. on the old beboard there is a b/a picture of mominator and she used herbs, progesterone cream, and tesosterone cream to grow and it worked well. you can see a big difference in lift for sure. im not too sure if she too breaks but she was on her routine for at least 1 year.
Darisha
(Login Darisha) SugarQ June 3 2006, 12:27 AM
I just thought I would share my experience with progesterone cream. I started using a natural progesterone cream a few years ago which I applied to my wrists. I can't remember what dosage it was but I experienced a lot of weight loss over the 3 week period I was using it. My stomach went so flat I couldn't fit into any of my clothes. It certainly didn't help in the breast size department, quite the opposite, so I stopped altogether and things went back to normal. I may have been using too much but I thought I would get your thoughts about this.
Darisha
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 3 2006, 4:14 AM
i already explained that in its possible that it can cause weight loss because progesterone is known to kick start the thyroid gland. estrogen is known to cause weight gain while progesterone does the opposite or balanced off the effects of estrogen. i dont know what dosage a woman needs to take to start growing breasts. thats hard to pick and im not a doctor. progesterone can actually balance off low estrogen levels and low testosterone levels. i really dont know what happend to you but im not saying that progesterone is needs progesterone. but progesterone can work and does work. not everyone responses the same to progesterone. progesterone also works well with prolactin as well to enlarge the breasts. i plan on using it when i start my routine. i will let you all know how it goes.
wsdm
(Login wsdm) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 3 2006, 2:29 PM
SugarQ great posts! I like that you have done so much research and you are willing to share!
May 30 2006 at 5:14 PM Snowflake (Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
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would it be good in a program or not. Heard anything bad about it??? Anything good???
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 30 2006, 6:38 PM
its a herb is said to act like isoflavins and its added to many herbal estrogen suppliments. as far as weither its would be useful in a NBE routine, i dont think so. many women in the old beboard forum used it in their routines and no one has reported any kind of results. many scientific evidence that that support or deny the claims that DQ is effective at supplimenting estrogen are mixed. IMO when there is so much flip flop then i would say that its not worth a shot if you have many other good alternatives. the main thing about DQ is that it contains isoflavins. we misunderstand what these estrogens are and what they can do. first of all most women with small breasts dont need more estrogen to grow breasts. adding estrogen (of any sort) ususally doesnt do anything to breast size but in RARE cases women can get sensations and at the most they might get some fullness. so most women dont gain cupsizes with estrogen. another thing is that phyoestrogens dont replace or suppliment natural estrogen. phyoestrogens might stop symptoms that care caused by estrogen deficientcy but there really isnt anything that shows it caused breast enlargement.
any how DQ is not considered a very strong phyoestrogenic herb like soy, licorice root, red clover etc. and even these strong phyoestrogens havnt totally proven themselves effective yet. im no herbalist but from what i have researched over the years it has lead me to discard phytoestrogens completely. if you need estrogen then take estrogen not phytoestrogens cause at least you know for sure what you are dealing with. you can do this by blocking hormones that inhibit estrogen like Saw Palmetto or drugs like sprionolactone(spironolactone has be known by the medical community to cause breast enlargement as a side effect). you can try to convert testosterone into estrogens by taking AA or oils that convert into AA like EPO and Borage. You can suppliment with testosterone, progesterone, Pregnenolone and the body will balance itself out and convert testosterone into estrogen without much help. or you cang go to your doc and get a prescription for estradiol or a BCP. doing this is almost a sure fire way of getting the the right estrogen (estradiol) that is known to cause breast enlargement for sure. but remember if there is no guarantee that estradiol will work most of the time to cause NBE then its lottary odds that phyoestrogens will cause NBE if its not yet proven today. mice and monkeys all develop mammary tissue with estradiol and progesterone just like humans. and they have been given herbs like QU and there really hasnt been much mention of the amount of fat that gets deoposited in the breast or the size of the mammary glands. normally we are the only mammals that have inflated mammary glands all the time while other mammals only have inflated mammary glands when they are ready to mate and when they are pregnant. but adding estrogens or herbs that are estrogenic should mimic the hormone levels that would cause other mammal's mammary glands to enlarge or develop but im still looking for promising data shows that.
i dont want to start a massive debate or anything. there are women who claim it DQ worked for them but im not yet convinced. im might be wrong or maybe another member night have a good site with interesting info that could say different. but there is one thing most women here would agree with and that is there are already so many NBE herbs and methods that seem to be very promising and its not a good idea to experiment wit DQ with so much contravary over weither or not phyoestrogens do cause breast enlargement. but if i had to pick herbs that are are estrogenic then i would pick red clover, and soy. at the very least these herbs have been in several NBE routines that have been successful for a few women.
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS Hey Thanks SugarQ May 30 2006, 6:55 PM
Thanks SugarQ. Been searching myself, some stuff about it sounds so good. but then I don't always understand all the scientific stuff I am reading. I don't think I will bother with it then , cause fennel and SP and wild yam seem to be working really good for me and I feel really good overall. No complaints! So thanks again SugarQ!!!!!
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 30 2006, 10:45 PM
SugarQ you say that women with small breasts don't need more estrogen to grow.So why do we take estrogenic herbs?What is that which helps us grow?
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 31 2006, 5:20 AM
most of the NBE herbs women seem to be doing well with are not strong estrogens but rather they stimulate prolactin. if you go through most of the success cases and look a their routines you will see fenugreek, fennel popping up most of the time. you will also notice most women are doing massages which stimulate prolactin also.
you need to understand that during puberty when women are starting to reach their the body mass needed to start a menstral cycle ,growth hormone spikes and so does estrogen. those two working together while that girl is gaining weight and they both will start to deposite fat in key feminine areas (the breasts the hips, butt and thigns). for every girl, the proportion varies. some bodies prefer to deposite fat down low then up in the chest. but the main thing is that during puberty estrogen and hormones that convert into estrogen have the most influence on breast size. if fact there have been many studies where teens where give hormones like estrogen, testosterone and progesterone and results show a significant difference in breast size in teens (differences measured in cupsizes). now after puberty our bodies reach a balance and we start to store fat differently. when women are given the same hormones like estrogen there isnt a significant change in cupsize. drug brands that manufacture estradiol only mention breast size changes are rare side effect and the difference is very small and temparary. estrogen (after puberty) will just store fat all over the body over time. some women are lucky enough to gain most of it in the boobs but thats rare. so the key for NBE isnt adding more estrogen. the difference with teens and adults might have something to do with HGH , prolacin and progesterone levels. teens have higher higher HGH and estrogen levels then adults and lower/unstable progesterone levels. infact as soon as a teen girl starts her period ( when progesterone is present) her breast growth slows and estrogen levels start to lower a bit and stablize into the natural hormonal cycle we all know and love. before a girl starts her period estrogen is dominant and progesterone is almost non existant and breast grows the most and very fast during that time.
now think about it. if the problem was just low estrogen levels for most women then most of us can safely get a prescription for estradiol for our doctors. if we all did a hormone test it would if fact show that most of us are actually normal to estrogen dominant and progesterone difficient.no good doctor would give anyone with normal levels of estrogen more estrogen cause that would be stupid and dangerouse. you can gain weight natually to grow breasts cause more fat will mean more estrogen (the same as if you were to suppliment withe estradiol) but gaining enough weight to cause a significant change in breast size takes several months if not a few years (just like in puberty). you will notice that most women on NBE who had success gain at least 1 cupsize within a year and most didnt gain too much weight to do it. this may be due to prolactin which workes with estrogen to store fat maininly in breast. before massages became popular on forums most women would just take the herbs and many of them didnt have results to share. the first girl to change things was lucille cause she was the first woman to put up b/a pictures that actually showed a significant change is size and the main difference was that she started doing the chi massage. you dont even need to add estrogen to get prolactin to store fat. our bodies produce enough estrogen and prolactin will work with whats in our bodies already. if a woman as normal or slightly lower estrogen levels, breast growth night take a bit longer but it will happen if everything else is in balance.
now some women might have high estrogen levels. like fat girls. then why dont they continue to grow if their estrogens are so high? the reason is that for women who are estrogen dominant or excess their estrogen receptores start to down regulate. this is usually do to the fact that we have a hormonal cycle and low progesterone . when the estrogen receptors are not senstive to estrogen anymore then you can pump yourself full of estrogen and it will do nothing. these women dont need more estrogen but they they need is progesterone. infact with already large breasts women who take a BCP with a strong progestin will start growing breasts again. the reason being that progesterone will resensitize estrogen receptores. and if you are on a NBE routine and you are stimulating prolactin, prolactin will actually increase the number of estrogen receptors in the breast too. now many women will try herbs, massages and progesterone and not grow. it may be because they still havent reached the right balance for their bodies but it could also mean that their HGH levels (specifically IGF-1) is too low. YOU CANT GROW ANYTHING WITHOUT HGH. YOU CAN HAVE THE RIGHT BALANCE OF EVERYTHING ELSE BUT WITHOUT HGH FACTORS YOU WOULD GET ANY GROWTH.
the key is balance not more estrogen and less testosterone. very few women respond to that formula and NBE isnt a one size fit all thing. most women dont know their natual hormornal balance so they wing it. its ok if you use prolactin stimulants. just about every woman in the world (with breasts and a menstral cycle) are capable of getting pregnant and breastfeed. thats the majore factor in responding well to prolactin. but there is a problem if you try herbs like fenugreek, fennel etc and you still dont grow afer 1 or 2 years then troubleshooting is much harder. these women need to know their balance to see if anything is out of place before they try NBE. the problem can be as simple as actually not having enough estrogen or it would be that genetically you breast wont grow no matter what hormonal changes you under go. in that case you need to look at other NBE methods.
Anonymous
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 31 2006, 1:07 PM
SugarQ (or anyone else), what is HGH?
Helen
(Login Helen_N)
EVE MEMBERS HGH; IGF-1 May 31 2006, 5:03 PM
HGH stands for Human Growth Hormone, the hormone that stimulates our body to grow. HGH secretion reaches its peak in the body during our teens, and we continue to produce it usually in short bursts during deep sleep.
Absorbed by our liver it's converted into growth factors, IGF-1 being the most important one. You can think of HGH as the hormone that "gets the ball rolling", but IGF-1 does most of the work
During puberty, we have massive amounts of growth hormone available to assist with breast growth. Our growth hormone levels start to decline after the age of 30. Our lifestyle (DIET, EXERCISE, SLEEP HABITS) can also have a significant impact on how much growth hormone our body produces.
And as SugarQ emphasized, without enough growth hormone, our body -and our breasts- simply wouldn't grow...
Helen xx
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts May 31 2006, 7:26 PM
SugarQ that was a great post!!!!!I am glad there are people like you in this forum that know many things and can help us like you do!I feel safe and I trust your opinion on the subject whatever it may be!
So if I got it right what we need for NBE to work is to stimulate prolactin by massage in order to make estrogen -receptors sensitive and then some estrogen to fill them?
Therefore, in theory any woman who massages regularly and eats estrogenic herbs in moderation (in order not to block the estrogen receptors) for a considerable period of time (eg.a year) is bound to develop breasts even without gaining weight?
I remember that in an old post of yours you had said that you were looking for an electric massager to start your personal NBE program.So is prolactin the key to breast growth success?How are you going with your program?Have you noticed any growth?
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 1 2006, 10:51 AM
Thanx everyone, this topic has been most instructive.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER to clarify for Anon June 1 2006, 5:24 PM
prolactin works with estrogen to store fat in the breast. prolactin also increases the number of estrogen receptors in the breast.
progesterone will increase the receptor's sensitivity. some women have enough progesterone to do this must most dont and thats why you might see many NBE books mention using progesterone cream if you dont get any growth or you stall. progesterone will also enlarge the breast by enlarging the mammary glands. this is usually tempurary but if you got enough estrogen and progesterone at work the hope is that over time the body will try to replace the glands with fat to make the results perminant and the tension produced by the enlarged glands will stimulate HGH to allow breast tissue to strech and grow at the same time.
there are 2 classes of NBE herbs there are the phyoestrogen and galactagogues (herbs that seem to stimulate prolactin). you can count herbs like Saw palmetto as 3 (they are Anti DHT) but most of us really dont need them. it has als been shown that a routine can work without them. i already said that herbs like fenugreek and fennel are stronger galactagogues then they are phyoestrogenic herbs. most people believe that becuase the work so well at causing NBE that it means they are estrogenic(i already explained that more estrogen doent mean breast growth). breastfeeding women use these herbs to increase their milk supply and estrogen isnt known to directly increase milk supply. in fact estrogen and progesterone are suppose to suppress milk production.
now phyoestrogens are used for balance and in some small way and in some people it may help them grow breasts but the thing is most of them are so weak and there is so little of the isoflavins in them that its hard to really see how it would help women in the normal to estrogen dominant range accomplish NBE. phyoestrogens will compete with our normal estrogen . now if these isoflavins snatch a receptor then they block the our bodies' nautral (stronger)estrogens from doing anything. isoflavins do, however mimic estrogen in a weak way but over all they are estrogen blockers. in the end we get an estrogen balance that is usually lower then what it normally would/should be. the body doesnt like isoflavins. our bodies were designed to respond to estradiol, estone and estriol but some substances are able to fit (loosely) in the receptors that respond to these estrogen. like a good compeditor our bodies will find a way around the isoflavins. it could lower the receptor sensitivity but isoflavins are already very weak and at the very least does still gives some activity that the body needs anyway. so the next best thing is to shoot up production of the stronger estrogens. now our bodies will make more estrogens with no place to go too. this is when we get an estrogen overload which is just as bad as having too little estrogen. you get no growth and if this high levels of estrogen last too long then its possible to get seriouse hormone related illnesses.
in women with low levels of estrogen, phyoestrogens will lift their estrogen levels up higher but the question is, would the weak estrogens be strong enough to stimulate breast enlargement. i dont know but maybe. there are a few routines that have herbs with strong estrogens like red clover, soy, and licorice root. many of the women that have reported results were also taking other herbs but at the very least these herbs didnt seem to interfere.but who knows? im not saying not to take phyoestrogens but rather to carefully take them. dont take them in the start of a new routine. wait to see if the galactagogues herbs work on their own. then you can try adding low dosages of phytoestrogens and ramp up the dosage slowly .
IMO i think phyoestrogen are a bit risky. its better to try to take your own natural levels of testosterone and try to either convert or block it.But this is just my opinion. its easier for me to reason away how to natually boost estrogen can help NBE but its still hard to explain now isoflavins actually (if at all) help with NBE.the usual explaination you get from sites that promote estrogenic herbs for NBE is that phyoestrogens mimic estrogen and estrogen means breast growth. i just explained how this is true but still very very wrong:
(recap)
1) phyoestrogens are 1000-100000x weaker. so they dont replace or substitute our bodies's natural estrogens.
2)more estrogen(of any kind) doesnt always mean breast growth
3)and in most cases phyoestrogens will block our bodies's natural estrogen overall or it may not be strong enough if you have, low estrogen, to stimulate breast enlargement.
i do have faith that phyestrogens can be used in some cases to help with NBE but its hard to say for whom it would work for. most women just do guess and check to pick their routine and hope they get lucky.
i hope this makes a bit more sense.
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 1 2006, 7:27 PM
So prolactin and progesterone are what actually a woman needs to grow ?I have read in a forum that progesterone may cause breasts to shrink.
Lisa 121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS SugarQ June 1 2006, 8:51 PM
Sorry to butt in guys, but SugarQ would you mind looking at the thread I made about herbs and how long they stay in the system? I would really appreciate your input and I forgot to put it into the subject line.
Thanks,
Lisa
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 2 2006, 4:17 AM
Lisa i will check your thread out ASAP.
and anon- progesterone is not known to cause shrinkage. in fact its mostly known to cause temparary breast enlargement of the breasts. with any NBE routine shrinkage is possible. its not the herbs'or the hormones fault but it happens. some women will enlarge a little. most of the time they wont even notice the size increase cause its so small and they dont feel any sensations or pain. then out of no where they shrink some. shrinkage doesnt happen very often but its possible. its also possible that some women (rare) will complain of shrinking to a smaller cupsize then they were originally. ive only heard of this happen 3 or 4 times over 3 years out of 8 of NBE forums. out of 1000s of members thats not too bad at all. most women who shrink will gain usually gain back everything they lost and then some. there are many reasons i can come up with that would explain why some women shrink. 1) could be that there is a hormonal shift of some sort 2) progesterone and prolactin will enlarge the breast glands and its possible but rare that the glands can actually push out fat that is already present to make room for milk production. this normally can happen to women who breast feed cause the glands will enlarge more then women who are just doing NBE. some women might be to sensitive to gland enlargement and their breasts will remove fat with only a little pressure. but its false to think that progesterone will just cause shrinkage or at least it shouldnt cause shrinkage. if i cant really think of how progesterone can directly cause shrinkage but it is known that progesterone will stimulate the thyroid and its known to slim down or remove fat form the Abs. it considered a fat burner which freak some women out cause they think that if they apply the cream to the breast that it would cause it to shrink. if applying the progesterone cream directly to the breast freaks anyone out you can still get alot of benifit from applying it to the wrists, ankles or any other areas that would allow for good absorption.
FACT: we know for sure that progesterone will help enlarge the breasts. its possible that with gland enlargement fat can be displaced but 90% of the time this doesnt happen.
Anonymous
(no login) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 2 2006, 12:59 PM
so progesterone is it good,bad or neutral for NBE?If I understood you must not apply it to your breasts but to your wrists or somewhere else?Casn progesterone cream be dangerous like GH?To who you would suggest to take it and how can anyone use it to see permanent results(I mean how can you prevent the enlarged glands from burning the fat or from shrinking because you don't breastfeed?)
Sorry for all these questions but I start to think NBE in a new approach after this thread.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 2 2006, 3:56 PM
if women who have been pregnant recently sometimes after giving birth their progesterone levels drop too low so when they start NBE they are too sensitive to prolactin and instead of growing breast they may start to lactate. so progesterone is important to these women. progesterone in women who have never been pregnant or had their last child more then 3 years ago can take it to enlarge their glands a little. gland enlargement causes tention which streches skin and tissue.breast growth through introducing a sustained tension was introduced by the brava and it seems to work but the device is so expensive unconfortable to wear. in vigin breasts it will usually only provide some fullness which is just enough that fat can still be deposited over time while the glands slowly shrink back rather then move fat out of the breast. it will also allow the estrogen receptors to work at their full potential to aide in storing fat. the cream needs to be applied in areas where the skin is thin so the cream can be absorbed best into the blood stream. the wrist and the ankles are popular areas but some creams can be applied vaginally while others contain strong enough carriers that it can be applied to the abs, but, legs. its a good idea to read the directions and the ingredients in the cream before purchasing. that will give you a good idea of the quality you are getting.
progesterone doent have too many negative size effects but one that comes up on NBE forums is Acne. which is possible cause progesterone can be converted into tesosterone so thats a possibility. if you overdose (apply the whole container of cream) it can cause drowsiness which isnt life threatening but you still want go get checked out to make sure. if you use too much it can disrupt your hormone balance . its usually the higher dosages that are responsible for causing NBE so you need to carefully work your way up to a lowest effective dosage for your body. a good cream started at 500mg/oz so and you can take 1/2-1/4 tbsp 2x a day. you so can work up to the 1/2 tbsp 2x a day and see how that works for you. you sould use the cream for no more then 4 months and lower it dosage down to nothing. like with BCP the body will eventually just stop responding to the cream and by about 4 months you could start loosing some of the fullness causes by the hormones. you can take a breast for 4 months and then try the cream again. on the old beboard there is a b/a picture of mominator and she used herbs, progesterone cream, and tesosterone cream to grow and it worked well. you can see a big difference in lift for sure. im not too sure if she too breaks but she was on her routine for at least 1 year.
Darisha
(Login Darisha) SugarQ June 3 2006, 12:27 AM
I just thought I would share my experience with progesterone cream. I started using a natural progesterone cream a few years ago which I applied to my wrists. I can't remember what dosage it was but I experienced a lot of weight loss over the 3 week period I was using it. My stomach went so flat I couldn't fit into any of my clothes. It certainly didn't help in the breast size department, quite the opposite, so I stopped altogether and things went back to normal. I may have been using too much but I thought I would get your thoughts about this.
Darisha
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 3 2006, 4:14 AM
i already explained that in its possible that it can cause weight loss because progesterone is known to kick start the thyroid gland. estrogen is known to cause weight gain while progesterone does the opposite or balanced off the effects of estrogen. i dont know what dosage a woman needs to take to start growing breasts. thats hard to pick and im not a doctor. progesterone can actually balance off low estrogen levels and low testosterone levels. i really dont know what happend to you but im not saying that progesterone is needs progesterone. but progesterone can work and does work. not everyone responses the same to progesterone. progesterone also works well with prolactin as well to enlarge the breasts. i plan on using it when i start my routine. i will let you all know how it goes.
wsdm
(Login wsdm) Re: SugarQ, Dong Quai, whats your thoughts June 3 2006, 2:29 PM
SugarQ great posts! I like that you have done so much research and you are willing to share!
