[wantboobsbad]

Hi, I posted in the introductions site a few days ago so the program I am on is listed there. Although I forgot to write that I am also taking GABA. I guess my concern is that in the first 8 weeks I went up an inch or so and since then....nothing. do you think I need a break?
Also, as far as PM goes, why are these results not permanent? Just wondering why if its a phytoestrogen why it wouldn't work the same way all of them do. I'm just trying to figure out where to go from here and what I can do to jump start my growth again. Maybe I drink too much caffeine...I don't know. I have ramped up over the last few days and had no growing pains so I will go back down to the lower doses. A few weeks ago I had lots of pains but no growth that was measurable anyway.
I am also confused as to whether I am supposed to be taking different herbs at different times of my cycle. If anyone can answer or provide some insight that would be great. and lastly, thank you to everyone who posts here. It has been of great help to me and very inspiring to me on those days where I feel like all hope is lost in the boobies department! 8)

[Isabelle]

Hi wantboobsbad,

Maybe use fenugreek orally too, and add goat's rue for more swelling. If you want to cycle, take PM from the first day of your period for 12 days, then pause for two days, and then take fenugreek up to day 24.

[wantboobsbad]

thank you so much for replying! I have been browsing a while and you seem to really know your stuff! I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear, I am taking fenugreek orally as well. Maybe I forgot to put that in too. I try to squeeze these posts in when the kids are occupied for a few minutes! So I am taking fenugreek, sp, wy, GABA and massaging with phytoestrogen and fenugreek. I am due to take a break in two weeks. I do't know if I should go higher on my doses or not. I'm around 2500 mg of each right now.

[Isabelle]

Hi wantboobsbad,

For SP, 600 mg is enough, but too much should not stop your growth. Because it stopped after a month, I'm thinking about weight loss or lack of nutritients. Together with your diet, your multivitamin should have
2-10 mg vitamin B6
> 50 microgram vitamin B12
400 microgram folic acid
12-35 mg zinc
If you lose blood in your period, add 25 mg iron.

[surferjoe2007]

It could be an imbalance, with too much (phyto)estrogen only. That would also cause the shape issues, and is something that can occur after pregnancy. For that you'd use vitex (40-125 mg) or dong quai (up to 2000 mg) or maybe fennel. Unlike other herbs too much vitex or dong quai can cause a negative effect or no effect. If you cycle these then you'd use them at different days from the PM.

Fenugreek and wild yam will also help imbalance to some extent, but they can only increase the effect of the progesterone you already have. PM is a very strong phytoestrogen so it could worsen an imbalance. Temporarily stopping it or using less or using a different phytoestrogen might be a good idea.

[wantboobsbad]

I never really thought about it, but I guess it could be a nutrient deficiency. I have been having some G.I. issues and am seeing a specialist in a few weeks. I was found to be mildly anemic.
Can I add Dong quai or fennel with the herbs I am currently using?
Isabelle, I was browsing the other day and you telling someone that if their breasts were the perfect size during breastfeeding then it is a progesterone issue. I apologize if that wasnt' you or if I didn't read the post thoroughly enough. I was curious about it becasuse when I breastfed the girls were huge and round....perfect! I was wondering if you wouldn't mind expanding on that. Sorry to be asking so many questions but its so much information and can be hard to sort.
surferjoe, thank you for your response. I think I will give the higher dose of fenugreek and wy a few more days since I'm supposed to have a break in two weeks or so. thanks so much for the advice!!

[Isabelle]

Yes, wantboobsbad,

Progesterone creates roundness by growing the glands and the alveolas, while estrogens grow the milk ducts. Progesterone increases tenfold during pregnancy. So if you lose roundness after a pregnancy, the obvious conclusion would be that you need progesterone.

But that's not the problem with your program: you grew on it, so FG and WY do enough for progesterone. I would fix the nutrition issues first, before adding strongly progestinic herbs, like fennel or vitex or dong quai.

PM suppresses prolactin. Prolactin creates swelling. So if you swell a few days after stopping PM, you may have been taking too much PM.

[surferjoe2007]

Fenugreek has an irritating fiber that can cause G.I. issues like diahrrhea (or lesser irritation), but I'd think you'd be used to it by now. Easiest way to find out would be to stop FG for 48 hours and see if you get better. If so start with very little next time and wait until zero discomfort before increasing, or get an extract (no fiber). SP reduces the strong androgen DHT. 320-700 mg SP extract is enough but if it's not an extract then it's 2,000-4,000 mg. PM also fights progesterone. So true you can reduce PM instead of increasing progesterone/prolactin, and that would be easier on your system until you get B vitamin support. Fennel and vitex also increase prolactin.

Beans and nuts have tons of iron and some B vitamins too, but like nearly all foods only a little folate. Pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds or tahini have all that and zinc too. Meat has less iron but it has B12. Nutritional yeast and whole grain foods have B vitamins, and some iron. Never dump cooking water, the B vitamins including folate are water soluble. The advantage of pills is that it's easier to get more; the advantage of food is that you also get other types of nutrients that you didn't even think of.