[LookingForward2NBE]

Careful, your logic goes against the billion dollar industry of how to be fit yet we live in the most unfit nation the world. Its amazing people have still not woken up the fact the healthyist people (who die of old age 90+, centarians etc. almost always never hit a gym, never watched sooooo closely what they ate, typically don't get sick, don't have ache etc.

General easy rule of thumb to be healthy and live a long life is simple:

Eat whole foods, avoid all processed food (tradition meal preparation)
Eat organic meats - avoid modern hormones laced, avoid modern sterile dairy
Eat way less then a normal north American - usually a third.
Live a low stressed life
Sleep lots
Active in the sense of being outdoor and walking and interacting with people

The gym is one the least healthiest you can do for your health. To prevent osteo, all you need to do is bodyweight lite excerises daily like walking, a hop to your step etc. The compression effects solidify bone. But why you want to walk when you can drive and that bs calcium pills that are poorly absorbed, lead to coronary artery disease. To not gain weight, remove all processed food and eat less calories then you use. Eat a variety of natural unprocessed foods.

But where is money in that lol

Same principle applied to men (that we women should try to apply to our NBE program too), a lean define skinny chest ie David Beckham, he probably consumed Protein **prior** working out. The fatty large chest as Chris Hemsworth (Thor actor), then he probably eats more protein after his work out routine. Many of my guys friends have tested such theory.

My 2 cents.
-V

Look into 2% milk, it is just as anabloic and better for you then whey. Cheaper too. Just don't do skim or 1% or homogenized.

The protein powder story is just that. A story. Try and find the landmark study where it found the approx. 1g per lb of bodyweight. I can tell you, it wasn't designed they way you might think. I saw it at an old job that I had. The milk producers had an issue with all this whey and took the study and ran with and created an industry that has perpetuated for decades. Same thing with maltodextrin, corn waste. The study was done on 6 people, who will ill, didn't haven't dose escalation and no control group. Whey isolate is te most anabolic form. But taking liquid dairy whey isn't needed for performance. If your ill and not eating or incapable of eating, then cfm whey isolate is a viable option.

Athletes are paid to promote protein. Its unneeded and does nothing for a seditary individual or average athlete. You need to be a top athlete to see any benefit and I doubt even at that. Many many of the best athletes in the NFL, nhl, NBA, Olympics have started to stop using it. They perform better on whole nongmo foods. Just fact. Bodybuilders are all steroid users as are a lot of the gym junkies.

Creatine Monohydrate (only mono) is a very useful ingredients for exercise performance. But that said, even the 5g per day of creatine was poor done and taken as the gold standard ever since.

I thought I would share this as proof that just because its marketed, doesn't make it true, necessary or safe. A lot of it just playing to a concern and playing desires to improve themselves with a pill vs doing the hard work.

I recent came to learn that potentially jergen's baby shampoo no tears achieves no tears but putting a numbing agent!! Why does shampoo need a numbing agent. I have a lot of work to do on it to see if its true, not that I had any intention of using with baby.

[timarie]

I disagree. Europeans and Americans are big in gym vigorous Exercise but no, not Asian world. My late Dad at early adult age, he had bad diet and he ended up with one bad disease then he changed the way he ate (no more raw meat + fishes which was very popular in Asia). He never worked out but he lived till the age of late 80's. Samething for my late grandparents who lived to late 90's. Tai chi or Yoga is different than American Gym exercises due to we Americans consume too much calories daily. This is where Japanese people longevity rate are a lot higher than Americans...
To me if you are active (not a TV couch potato + Xbox player) and eating proper diet, you will be fine without exercising.
-V

You say you disagree, but clearly disagree without knowing exactly with what you are disagreeing. Tai chi and yoga ARE forms of exercise. Asians are very much into their exercise and keeping physically active throughout the day. It is actually very much a part of their lifestyle, more than it is apart of an American lifestyle. And there is surprisingly nothing wrong with calories as long as it is 1) being used and 2) comes from good food (meaning, the calories are paired with nutrition that your body can use). The problem with most Americans is that there is very little nutritional value attached to those calories, and many people don't exercise/stay active.

Here is the definition, as it seems it is needed for clarification based on your response. Exercise: "an activity requiring physical effort." This is also what describes an active lifestyle. An active lifestyle consists of activities requiring physical effort. Sedentary: "means a lifestyle that includes only the light physical activity associated with typical day-to-day life." (notice, not activity requiring physical effort); Moderately active: "means a lifestyle that includes physical activity equivalent to walking about 1.5 to 3 miles per day at 3 to 4 miles per hour, in addition to the light physical activity associated with typical day-to-day life." Active: "means a lifestyle that includes physical activity equivalent to walking more than 3 miles per day at 3 to 4 miles per hour, in addition to the light physical activity associated with typical day-to-day life." And walking, as you know, is a form of exercise. So there you have it. Exercise is what is needed in a person's routine to be considered active. http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/...pter4.html

However, since there are so many people who are the "TV couch potato + Xbox player" as you mentioned above, the idea of what is an active lifestyle in America has become almost warped. They think (just as you mentioned above) that anything more than sitting all day long is considered an active lifestyle. For example, a person thinks they live an active lifestyle if they work a desk job and run an errand or two after work (which for most of us consists of getting in and out of our cars), and cooking dinner. So, when a person says "active lifestyle" such as you said above, this is typically what is included in that category (as they think that just getting out of the house makes them active!), but really does not require hardly any physical effort. So really, I think more Americans live a sedentary lifestyle than we may think. I know of the Asian lifestyle of which you are speaking, and typically across the board, they all have AT LEAST moderately active lifestyles and are much more active than the American lifestyle. In Asia, they typically incorporate "physical activity that requires effort" in their daily routines.

I think it is pretty obvious that exercise increases life expectancy, which happens for a reason. However, exercising not only inconveniences people but also requires physical effort that many in this excuse-making society would rather not do. And most things that people would rather not do in this culture, we don't do and we sure know how to come up with a million-and-one excuses as to why we don't need it. And, the reason for the fact that there is a huge health and fitness industry is because so many people get caught in this rut that is so common of our culture yet does not coexist with our fashion industry's superficial need to look great. And healthy diets are finally starting to become a little more mainstream. These two go hand-in-hand as baby-boomers are now of the age in which they are most concerned about these things for the purpose of prolonging their lives, increasing their energy, and just looking the best they can as they begin to age. Health and fitness was not always a big industry, but it is today for these reasons. I personally think it is a good thing.

Additionally, it can be tricky to compare a culture like America to an Asian culture. There are so many differences other than just health and fitness that I would not know where to begin. For example, they do not need a big booming health and fitness industry because they already individually take care of that, because in the Asian culture, there is an over-achiever, perform the best to one's ability, no excuses mentality that we often times have less of here because we nurture more of an understanding of one's setbacks mentality here, which often results in a mentality of excuses. So, it's not that Asians live longer because they don't have a fitness industry... it's more the opposite, that they don't have a fitness industry because they are already living longer because they individually take care of their fitness needs. They don't even really seem to need the motivation that our fitness industry provides for us (and still many of us don't even bother due to our cultural mentality of excuses!).

Exercise.

I did say not to exercise but simply no High intensity workouts that would be required for GH release. I stand by that. A lack of vigorous exercise for 6-12months won't do anyone harm unless you someone with a type of preexisting condition ie type2 diabetes, high cholesterol etc. Then again, if you have those, nbe with the use of herbs could be an issue by manipulating the your baseline hormone balance.

Walking, non power yoga, light bike rides, intercourse, orgasims etc all help get your heart up without burning too many calories. Going for 2-3 light walks vs 1 power workout etc.

Agreed, agreed. Which is why I asked what you meant by not to exercise. Agreed that it is fine for your health if you do not do high intensity workouts over such a period of time, but I do believe that going without any exercise at all over such a period of time is not healthy (but this is not what you were saying, thanks for clarifying). However, I don't believe that some high intensity workouts will hurt in NBE. Overdoing it yes, but some will not hurt.

Easy with the hostility, I didn't say anything controversial or personally attack anyone. No wonder so many educated helpful members have stop posting and left.

Hostility? Maybe you're being sensitive, but I don't see it even when looking back at what I wrote. You are more than welcome to point it out. And actually, the helpful members leave when they get frustrated with people who make silly and stupid statements over and over again, no matter how many times the truth is told to them. They get frustrated and lose their cool, and eventually leave because it is unfair when they try to help people, and people keep insisting on their warped ideas no matter how many times the senior member tells them otherwise. No senior members have had a problem with me as of yet; the only people who have an issue with me were newer people.

Making a statement such as you just made was very passive-aggressive which I did not deserve, as I simply only disagreed with you, asked if you could clarify some things you said as they were unclear, and told you my frustration with that mentality in NBE. I don't see any harm in that, nor do I see any hostility or points directed at you. It is these kind of passive-aggressive comments, as well as the continued illogical push towards a less-healthy lifestyle, that tire me out. I am only here to keep people from believing the idea of "no exercise is better." But once presented with both sides of the argument, hopefully they should be able to make a decision to know.

The simple fact is, comparing a person who is naturally gifted with C+ breasts with a slim waste to someone with A-B cup breasts are trying to outdue your natural state and put on additional glandular extensioning and fat disposition is just a poor argument.

I'm sorry, but you will have to re-word this as it does not make any sense to me, due to the awkward and possibly erroneous syntax. I can honestly only see that you are saying something that I said was a poor argument, but you are unclear as to 1) what was a poor argument and 2) how it was a poor argument. Could you please write what you are trying to say here differently. Thank you.

All us NBE are trying to trick our bodies to put on breast growth.. Being catabolic, decreasing your natural test to testosterone ratio is simply a harmful appraoch for the gains we trying to get.
Its important to be excess calorie state, maximize estrogen and progesterone, keep test low, get sufficient sleep.
Your best chance of putting on breast tissue IMO is not to do rigorous exercise.. Go ahead if you want too but don't be confused as to why you are not seeing results or results are slower then what you hoped for. You can work on body later and get to a balance between breasts and fitness.. And I'll almost guarantee you when do start to be active you'll probably lose breast more quickly then from your waste and hips unless you are digilant with massage.
They're are so many fallacies regarding gh out there its ridiculous.

I am pretty sure I addressed most of this already in one of my last posts. Catabolism is negatively correlated with your diet. One can be in a catabolic state without exercising, and one can be in an anabolic state with exercising (such as myself). People need to be smart if they choose to exercise. I don't think we should assume that all people will NOT be smart when they exercise and hence tell them to avoid it altogether. And, it is unclear what you mean by "decreasing your natural test to testosterone ratio" I assume you meant "est" for estrogen? As that would make sense, I am going to go with that and say hey guess what, testosterone increases with high intensity exercise about as much as HGH does, as they increase together. If this is a low dose as you say, then they are both low and I am not going to sweat over it, especially since I am already starting to take antiandrogens at a moderately high dose. As for excess calories, and maximizing progesterone and estrogen and minimizing testosterone, I do hope you are exaggerating to make a point. At least from what I have understood in my short time being on this forum, a balance is necessary and you do not want too much of anything. Increasing them to the maximum HEALTHY level, yes, which I do hope is what you were trying to say. But certainly not just to maximize them.

As for rigorous exercise, I don't think with your "go ahead if you want to" comment that you really know what I do. Granted you know that I lift, but you don't know any more than that. If you look at my routine, I only do one high intensity workout a week. This is because I am only trying to build muscle in my lower body, whereas overall body builders try to build muscle all over, so they will have a high intensity workout 5 days out of the week. Yes, THIS would certainly be too much and would effect NBE as I did say in my last post, but as I also said before, a high intensity workout ONCE a week will certainly have very little effect on my NBE progress, if at all. And my upper body workouts (which I haven't done in the past month due to sleeping too much! eh) are not high intensity at all. They are actually kind of a joke. Very light weights and I don't even get my heart rate up. So, that routine is hardly anything to sneeze at when it comes to increasing testosterone, especially with the way I have been sleeping in ridiculous amounts since the start of my new NBE program.

And honestly, I have not argued at all against your point of HGH being very little, as I have only heard that exercise helps but, how much? No idea. So you may very well be right on that. But I DO know that HGH increases with testosterone so if you are right about the HGH being low, then so is the testosterone increase. And once a week, that cannot do much of any harm at all. Therefore, if my results turn out to be slower than for what I have hoped, it will be because of my body shape (that I am a pear) and possibly from my metabolism (it IS difficult to eat 7 times a day... sometimes I have to cut it back to 6) more than anything else. My once-a-week exercise is not even enough to keep me awake when I want/need to. THAT'S how low I know my testosterone has gotten. So who knows. I just think it is not wise to tell people not to exercise, which is what you wrote in your last post. It is not bad if people refrain from high intensity exercises, but once, maybe even possibly twice a week (depends on the person's body type) shouldn't make much of a difference. An emphasis on not over-doing it is what should be made, as well as a strong emphasis on eating enough and eating right. But yes, exercise (as the kinds you mentioned above) ARE ok and actually are good for circulation and other things that can benefit one's NBE progress.

Careful, your logic goes against the billion dollar industry of how to be fit yet we live in the most unfit nation the world. Its amazing people have still not woken up the fact the healthyist people (who die of old age 90+, centarians etc. almost always never hit a gym, never watched sooooo closely what they ate, typically don't get sick, don't have ache etc.

I addressed the purpose of our health and fitness industry in my response to CancerStrikes and how it happens to ironically be in "the most unfit nation [of] the world."

Again, if long-living people as you say never hit a gym, it's because they are doing some other active exercise. No one ever said "you must hit the gym." To stay on point and to be logical, these people DO exercise. It is ignorant to assume that the only exercise that can be done is done in the gym. And many who have "hit the gym" have lived long lives as well, so... your arguing a point that was never made. The point still remains that exercise is necessary for one's health, regardless of what kind. I defined what exercise is above in response to CancerStrikes.

General easy rule of thumb to be healthy and live a long life is simple:

Eat whole foods, avoid all processed food (tradition meal preparation)
Eat organic meats - avoid modern hormones laced, avoid modern sterile dairy
Eat way less then a normal north American - usually a third.
Live a low stressed life
Sleep lots
Active in the sense of being outdoor and walking and interacting with people

The gym is one the least healthiest you can do for your health. To prevent osteo, all you need to do is bodyweight lite excerises daily like walking, a hop to your step etc. The compression effects solidify bone. But why you want to walk when you can drive and that bs calcium pills that are poorly absorbed, lead to coronary artery disease. To not gain weight, remove all processed food and eat less calories then you use. Eat a variety of natural unprocessed foods.

But where is money in that lol

*sigh* One would not get the amount of nutrition that they need if they ate only a third of the typical American diet. If you want to keep with the whole Asian-way-is-best theme, all the Asians I know (not American Asians, we're still talking Asians) eat A LOT. They have very high metabolisms, eat a lot, eat frequently, and stay active. Boom. There ya have it. As for everything else listed, agreed.

Have been to a gym where they were rude to you and now you have a strong negative taste in your mouth for gyms? I mean, I just don't understand the logic here. There is nothing wrong with a gym. It is a place where people can get the things they need if they don't have it at home, and for many it also functions as a support group for someone struggling to become/stay active. Many people do those body weight exercises of which you wrote in the gym. It's just a PLACE, so how can it be one of the unhealthiest things you can do for your body? Also, there are many more gains to working out other than preventing osteoporosis and not gaining weight. This is why it is not smart to justify being sedentary with eating very little. There are things that exercise provides for us, and things that the extra food provides for us, that we NEED. It is not a simple matter of just calorie counting.

Same principle applied to men (that we women should try to apply to our NBE program too), a lean define skinny chest ie David Beckham, he probably consumed Protein **prior** working out. The fatty large chest as Chris Hemsworth (Thor actor), then he probably eats more protein after his work out routine. Many of my guys friends have tested such theory.

This is very interesting. So does the lean skinny chest only consume protein before the workout and none after, or are you saying just that they consume MORE before than they do after?

As long as your pituatary is functioning well (hence why its added to some pills), gh will naturally be produced for any growth stimulation that's caused from nbe as long you are not in a healing crisis. See below what I mean by that.

Think of a broken leg, you do nothing different and still heal without any intervention other then mobilization to allow delicate cartlidge matrix to be laid down for calcification.

The htpa (hytothalmus, pituatary axis) is very robust at dealing with growth when needed such as injuries. Trying to boost that is fine, but vigorous exercise cause micro damage which your body will take as a priority as its a critical function like muscle repair, ligament support, osteofication of bones, lung clearing of localized micro edema for increased respiration.. All those are critical life factors that need repair immediately.. Not laying down basements of breast tissue.

Like most of nbe, there is no proof either way regarding gh. What I feel is important is to give yourself the best shot at success cause its such a time and mental commitment to the nbe process that the above makes way way way more sense then working out hard enough to cause a gh transient spike and decreasing your estrogen-test ratio, getting into a state of fat loss when you want to be putting on fat..

Now, this is the first argument against exercise that makes some sense. However, with the amount of sleep that I get (and therefore, as you have mentioned everyone who wants breast growth should get a sufficient amount of sleep) and again only once a week exercising rigorously, the body will not be forced to choose "one or the other" when it comes to building tissue between my legs muscles and my breasts. My body gets enough sleep and enough nutrients to be able to grow both. The muscle break-down is not so major that my body cannot focus on growing other things (I mean, look at children, how they can grow in so many dimensions at once. But yes, the main difference between us and children is that our HGH is significantly lower). But adding a pituitary glandular is not a bad idea when considering this point. Thank you.

And again, I do not exercise for the HGH. I do my high intensity exercise to make my ass and legs more visually appealing than my usual pear fat. And again, exercise is not the cause of losing too much fat, rather it is diet... and that decrease in estrogen-testosterone ratio is temporary ever as much as the HGH is...

Look into 2% milk, it is just as anabloic and better for you then whey. Cheaper too. Just don't do skim or 1% or homogenized.

Whey IS milk, just more processed and easier to digest. Also, there is more protein in a serving, WHICH IS WHY body builders drink it. If they were to get the same amounts they needed just from milk, they'd be drinking around a gallon a day. Also, some add extra amino acids since they know that is what their body builders are looking for.

The protein powder story is just that. A story. Try and find the landmark study where it found the approx. 1g per lb of bodyweight. I can tell you, it wasn't designed they way you might think. I saw it at an old job that I had. The milk producers had an issue with all this whey and took the study and ran with and created an industry that has perpetuated for decades. Same thing with maltodextrin, corn waste. The study was done on 6 people, who will ill, didn't haven't dose escalation and no control group. Whey isolate is te most anabolic form. But taking liquid dairy whey isn't needed for performance. If your ill and not eating or incapable of eating, then cfm whey isolate is a viable option.

Actually, I wonder, do you know the purpose of a supplement? That is what protein powder is. Sure, you can get the same things from your diet, but as supplements usually do, the protein powder is packing more of everything that a muscle builder would want into a small shake. So it is kinda relevant to your point "If your ill and not eating or incapable of eating" because it is very difficult to get all the nutrition that they need just from eating alone. In fact, if they have a life other than eating, it is nearly impossible. I know that I could never eat that much, since I have a pretty small appetite, so I need supplementation. I don't think that protein powder is really necessary or very helpful to those who do not muscle build though, so I am not talking here as the biggest advocate of protein powders. Unless a person insists on taking it, I usually talk them out of it because it is a waste of money if used for anything other than muscle building. But protein powders are not the devil. They are good for what they were intended for. And the 1gram per pound of bodyweight rule-of-thumb is a rough estimate that works for bodybuilders, based on what muscles need when growing, in addition to the amount of protein that is needed on a normal-function basis. That rule does not apply to those who are not building muscle. The rule for those people is more something like a gram count that is 70% of your body weight. Why? Simply because your body is 70% protein, that's why. Incredible, right? Protein is actually a lot more important for one's diet than the general diet-goer is aware.

Athletes are paid to promote protein. Its unneeded and does nothing for a seditary individual or average athlete. You need to be a top athlete to see any benefit and I doubt even at that. Many many of the best athletes in the NFL, nhl, NBA, Olympics have started to stop using it. They perform better on whole nongmo foods. Just fact. Bodybuilders are all steroid users as are a lot of the gym junkies.

Your information is ... anything to back this stuff up? I mean, when you make statements, I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you got it from somewhere but this is getting a little crazy. First off, most gym junkies are not steroid users. You have just demonstrated the ignorance that results from the common rift/divide between those who enjoy being very physically fit, to those who like to justify talking to their friends and running one or two errands as exercise enough. Just because you see someone incredibly fit and cannot wrap your head around justifying their hard work other than blaming it on steroid use, doesn't make it true. I know plenty of jacked guys who are huge and don't take any steroids. It is very common actually. Of course there are a few who are on the hormones, but it is not as common as the non-steroid user. And actually, everyone needs protein. I really don't need to elaborate that one, as it is pretty obvious. I don't believe you for a minute when you say that top athletes have stopped consuming protein. In all due respect, not possible. But good for them for going non-GMO. I am gradually trying to get my diet to be non-GMO as well (but this has nothing to do with protein, btw. I will still be able to consume all the protein I want with a non-GMO diet). It is just a matter of getting inexpensive non-GMO foods that is keeping me from not being 100%. And I get an AMAZING source of fiber from this one cereal I eat. I wish it came in organic, and maybe they will work on that one day, but I would have to eat 15 salads to make up for the fiber I get in that one bowl of cereal. At least the grains are not refined.

Creatine Monohydrate (only mono) is a very useful ingredients for exercise performance. But that said, even the 5g per day of creatine was poor done and taken as the gold standard ever since.

I thought I would share this as proof that just because its marketed, doesn't make it true, necessary or safe. A lot of it just playing to a concern and playing desires to improve themselves with a pill vs doing the hard work.

I really have nothing to say about creatine, since people say it helps them but they deflate as soon as they stop taking it... so... weird to me. Never touched the stuff.

Thank you for sharing. Hopefully, despite the fact that no one said it was necessary, no one thinks it is necessary. It is only necessary for certain situations, for certain goals, and bodily needs. The whole idea of taking protein shakes for NBE made me laugh at first, but then I guess if someone doesn't feel like consuming more protein through their food then hey, that's their preference (getting 70% of your body weight in protein through your diet should not be difficult to do)... but if you notice or ever see my posts on it around this forum, I typically discourage it when used for NBE alone or weight gain. And I really have never heard a protein powder company advertising to help with breast growth or with weight gain, so talking like they are this big lying manipulating scam is a little much. Breast enhancing pills started that ball rolling. I mean, all products need to advertise and exaggerate, but they do advertise to the population who will benefit the most from their product, and that is muscle builders. I can't say it enough, but for muscle building it is pretty darn important. Unless a muscle builder is able to consume that much protein in a day from whole food sources, protein powders are necessary. Pills vs. hard work though? I mean yeah, it would be A LOT harder for me to eat 2-3 more meals a day with 25 grams of protein per each meal, so in that way yes, I am taking the "easier road out." But again, it would never happen for me if I did not have the shakes to supplement. But, I also got a chuckle out of your choice of words... hard work... this whole argument being to exercise vs not to exercise with your argument being for the latter... just funny! I mean, I already put out more work in the exercise and diet department (these are our topics of discussion), and you're going to say I take a short cut for taking some protein supplements? Smh...

[LookingForward2NBE]

Due to length of last post, I won't copy and past an followup in 2 sections of this reply.

On Topic - GH
Beneficial but how to increase it in a meaningful and useful way is unknown unless you do so with injections of GH. Honestly the holy grail for natural inbody stimulation as the loss of gh is directly associated with aging.

I think we can both agree, exercise GH release is very unlikely if at all to provide any meaningful NBE - especially since it requires intense exercise, that most people fail to achieve and if you are doing so daily, you'll be hurting your chances for NBE.

6g-day of L-arginine I have seen data that it does boost GH. That said, its not so innocent as its traditionally used as a vasodilator, has effect on blood pressure etc.

GABA does as well but need to do so at high doses. The safety risk then comes into play of taking large doses of GABA for prolonged periods of time ie months to years.

Off-topic
Centarians and 90+ are active... Most elders I know (I personal know and interact with a women who is 105) and know many in north America, Europe and India (hat are over 90. The common thread between them:

Eat light (low calorie, nutrient dense, clean unprocessed)

Active.. Early in life worked hard (farm hand, constructionn walked tonnes) by once hit middle age all jkust walked and stay mobile. So for 1\2 their life were basically couch potatoes who made sure to get out and walk a bit, buy groceries etc. None were of any athletic mindset.

Low stress

Strong social bonds and interactions

++++ exercise
Yes I agree there is now a movement and awareness that traditional training isn't healthy or even the best option. That more traditional yoga, tai chi, running are more effective. You're a minority that understands exercise and how certain forms of exercise have differing implications. You should in my opinion offer advise assuming others are... Because 90% or more of north American are clueless. They still think life a free weight or doing elliptical in a gym will give weight loss and health changing results..

++++ caloric intake *sigh*
As a direct result of lack of people being active as a result of TV, internet, cars: we simply do not need the calories as indicated for active individuals. Couple that with peoples having become accustomed to massive stomach distension as a result.. People FEEL they are hungry when there not. So yes, 1\3 to 1\2 for average person is absolutely appropriate. Considering they are typically eating 3000+ calories and 50% liquid unfibered artifically sweetened. A typical person could not put a meal together that was 1500 per day! They might for 1 single meal! Add in transfats, artifical sweetners, preservatives, substances like pink slime in the USA, hormone injections, cmo feed animals, gmo human food which all make you put on weight.

++++ pre- post
If you are only going to do one. Pre is absolutely more essential. That said, there is real value in post nutrition but consists of very different intake requirements.

++++ growth and children
Much of that has to with DNA (can provide with scientific evidence of growth stop signalling if needed of long bones etc) and stem cells. Once your DNA determines you've reach your potential, its nearly impossible to restart it. women's breast can be naturally enhanced due to the natural constant state of flux as a organ (within each menstrual cycle), a milk gland stimulation in pregnancy and milk let down during breastfeeding. So its natural to grow later in life past puberty..hence NBE is effective. Your pushing along an already natural bodily fuction. The only option men have is stretching and hold techniques because its not an organ that needs to flucuate through a lifetime. As such, very risk of damage and loss of function can happen for trying to npe.

++++ whey milk
Absolutely whey IS NOT milk. Milk is a whole food (even though we destroy it due to laziness in finding a raw milk solution; we split an atom but can ship raw milk).. whey is a manipulated component of milk. There are so few companies selling 90+ cfm whey with no crap in it that most of all protein powders on the market are crap, not even suitable for pets. I known of one supplier that started selling ultra pure whey that was 97%.. And some manufactures bought into it Lol. In speaking with the lead scientist.. They did so by a new filtering techique that strip so much out that they had to add amino's back - the aminos they added back are poorly bioavailable. So you way better of with 90% version. But the 97% saved manufactures money on a per gram of protein basis..so guess what they use...when you do a protein test by kf: it just shows a nitrogen so u get the protein only not structure or amino structure.

Actually, protein isn't key. Its anti-oxidants, fats, fiber, sugars then protein. And when it comes to protein, its important to vary it up. Vegatative proteins are significantly healthier then animal and animal byproduct protein - with exception of eggs. Whey is simply the most marketed cause it was most available one and had the high anabolic score. Milk suupliers finally had an outlet for their waste product. That said, others were pretty close and in real world application equal.

++++ athletes and cleaning eating
1. Yes I do but no point here. I can tell you I worked with the #1 supplement sports marketer in the world, worked with several industry people in research.
2. Know Mr. Philips if that means anything to you.
3. Was asked by the Miami dolphin (yes) to analyze blood results vs nutrition programs to maximize athlete performance.
4. There is a performance school for athletes that make the draft but underperform at training camps and consulted on how to get them to quickly get up to expectations based on analyzing a number of different biomarkers.
5. NPC

Anyone who wants to be superfit, no brain fog and perform at their highest level shouldn't consume whey.. Unless they are buying from one the top 3 producers (not marketers) in 25kg brown bags ... Even then I highly question as to why. Bodybuilding is a different subset, and may.. Just maybe worth it to them as they put on unnatural physiques and a lot of the steriods requires constant food intake to keep up with the physiological influence they cause. So for them and only them.. Sure. Most of physiques are a result of massive steroid loads and huge caloric intake then whey.. I've met the last 3 Mr. Olympians, didn't see who won this year mind you but since I'm about to go on mat leave, doesn't really matter to me.

++++ creatine
Have to admit you kind of surprised me with lack of knowledge and stereotyping of it but since you don't use I can see how. That stereotype is of the 80's and 90's. That's not what it does ... Yawn. I'm also surprised you do not use it, you should. Very quickly. Its an energy source. It helps turn burned out ADP molecules into ATP as you workout and does so instantiously. So it gives your muscles massive energy stores for longer duration training both for slow twitch and fast twitch fibers and explosive power gains. It does retain water transiantly in your muscle fibers, buts also a good thing, the added mass allows you to lift more, thereby increasing the effectiveness of your workout. Then you excrete the excess fluid which is minimal but you still benefit in the end. Net positive. Its the single most researched ingredient in sports nutrition.

[AbiDrew85]

OK. Holy what the heck.

Seriously. HGH is entirely over-rated, both for breast growth, and for muscle building. Unless you're seriously massively deficient: Don't stress it.

Now to debunk some myths.

Well, for one thing, everything timarie has said, I'm going to save some time here and say: YES! Listen to her, she DOES know what she's talking about when she says stuff, and if she doesn't, she does her research before talking so she doesn't do so just right up out of her ass.

But it seems to me she's being a little too soft. So yes. I'm going to go all out tough girl on some of this shit.

protein intake
intensive short workout.
less carb and sugar in diet
fasting one day in a weak
sleep well (by turning of all the artificial lights early (including TV, and computer ) to allow the secretion of melatonin ) and with the help of hypnosis to .

VERY GOOD POINTS! Though nix the once a week on fasting and try to only do that once a month. If you do face monetary reasons you might wind up fasting more often, it might not hurt too badly to fast up to once a week, but absolutely no more than that. Fasting once a MONTH is healthy. More than that and your body starts to be deprived and starts storing up fat deposits.

Exercise is proven method but for NBE, I feel that is counter-indicated. Its needs to be high intensity exercise, and that would cause a spike in testosterone as well as make you catabolic. Exactly what you don't want to be doing when trying to put on fat and glandular tissues in your breasts.

Also, that vast majority of gh is released during rem sleep. So its important if you want to produce as much gh as possible to get 7h+ deep consecutive sleep with no waking. Don't take melatonin at anything over .5mg or will actually shut down all production of gh. No medical sleep adds!

Uhm, NO!

Exercise is NEVER counter-indicated. ALWAYS ALWAYS need to get enough exercise and eat right.

As for melatonin. Care to share your sources, cuz I have plenty to say otherwise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8370132

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5660721

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/596...ercse-hgh/

And that's just on the first page of NORMAL google results.

Here's what scholar gets us:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=melatonin+exercise+increase+hgh&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C36

And if you go in and read the actual results, the melatonin either had NO EFFECT, OR, WITH THE ADDITION OF STRENUOUS EXERCISE IT INCREASED HGH.

So no. Just no.

All us NBE are trying to trick our bodies to put on breast growth.. Being catabolic, decreasing your natural test to testosterone ratio is simply a harmful appraoch for the gains we trying to get.

Its important to be excess calorie state, maximize estrogen and progesterone, keep test low, get sufficient sleep.

Your best chance of putting on breast tissue IMO is not to do rigorous exercise.. Go ahead if you want too but don't be confused as to why you are not seeing results or results are slower then what you hoped for. You can work on body later and get to a balance between breasts and fitness.. And I'll almost guarantee you when do start to be active you'll probably lose breast more quickly then from your waste and hips unless you are digilant with massage.

Hell to the no.

Catabolism does NOT inhibit breast growth if we define breast growth as being most specifically glandular development. NEWSFLASH, I was on a controlled catabolic diet for OVER A YEAR and DEFINITELY got slow but definite gains in glandular development. My fat and muscle flattened, but that was the point. I wanted to start from a "clean slate" on building a completely different and much improved figure. Now that I'm eating more normally in preparation to go on a gains diet soon, I'm starting to slowly put on the fat deposits in my hips and breasts. And this is just eating a mostly weight maintaining diet. Not even on a gaining diet yet.

As timarie pointed out, "maximizing" estrogen and progesterone is NOT the goal. The goal is to "maximize" your hormonal BALANCE. Bigger peaks, deeper valleys, steeper curves. Minimizing testosterone is important as well, yes. But exercising isn't going to make that big a difference on testosterone levels. It really isn't. Even less than it makes on HGH, significantly less. Especially for a FEMALE.

And lolwut. Massage? Seriously? Do you have a single freaking clue what you're talking about? If you're catabolic and massaging, the increased circulation to the area you're massaging means MORE LOSS.

Don't get me wrong, exercise is a key to a healthy and long but equally as important is getting long sustain sleep and low stress low cortisol.

The first actually intelligent thing you said.

Once a nbe'r is pleased with her gains, then she can slowly add exercise back.. 6-12 months shouldn't make a significant difference to your health if your taking care and eating clean.

But then you ruin it. 6 to 12 months isn't going to get anyone ANY gains. Not real gains. That's just enough to maaaaaybe start to notice it, a little, maybe. But entire cup sizes of real sustained growth that won't shrink away into disgusting misshapen stretched out lumps soon after stopping the program? Nope. Not happening.

So no. Your entire premise is false here. You're talking about increasing breast FAT not breast GROWTH. And DUH that's going to go away with eating right and proper exercise. And the thing is... Some of us actually would rather GASP, not grow, than get fatty boob.

Easy with the hostility, I didn't say anything controversial or personally attack anyone. No wonder so many educated helpful members have stop posting and left.

LOL. Guess what. I'm one of them who'd left for a while. Guess what.

Hostility? Maybe you're being sensitive, but I don't see it even when looking back at what I wrote. You are more than welcome to point it out. And actually, the helpful members leave when they get frustrated with people who make silly and stupid statements over and over again, no matter how many times the truth is told to them. They get frustrated and lose their cool, and eventually leave because it is unfair when they try to help people, and people keep insisting on their warped ideas no matter how many times the senior member tells them otherwise. No senior members have had a problem with me as of yet; the only people who have an issue with me were newer people.

Making a statement such as you just made was very passive-aggressive which I did not deserve, as I simply only disagreed with you, asked if you could clarify some things you said as they were unclear, and told you my frustration with that mentality in NBE. I don't see any harm in that, nor do I see any hostility or points directed at you. It is these kind of passive-aggressive comments, as well as the continued illogical push towards a less-healthy lifestyle, that tire me out. I am only here to keep people from believing the idea of "no exercise is better." But once presented with both sides of the argument, hopefully they should be able to make a decision to know.

That's why I took a break!

And if you think Tina's been being hostile... I wonder what you'll make of my response! Cuz while she's been soft and civil, I AM HOSTILE.

The simple fact is, comparing a person who is naturally gifted with C+ breasts with a slim waste to someone with A-B cup breasts are trying to outdue your natural state and put on additional glandular extensioning and fat disposition is just a poor argument.

Are you related to a certain senator who read Green Eggs and Ham on the Senate Floor recently? You just sounded JUST like him. Or maybe you're related to his BFF in the House, a certain lady who makes even the rest of the Tea Party seem sane... Cuz seriously. Was this supposed to make any sense? It didn't. And you never did tell Tina what you meant by it.

They're are so many fallacies regarding gh out there its ridiculous.

On this we agree. But I don't think we agree on what they are. Are you being contrary just to be so?

Anyway, the Human Growth Hormone is definitely important for growing your boobies period. Mainly cuz you try to force your body to be out of its comfort zones to grow Extra layer.

No. It really isn't. I can assure you my hgh was probably not that great for a while but I still kept gaining. The difference was that I wound up being tired and sleeping more. HGH helps us to grow and or recover without being lethargic. You'll grow and or recover regardless. But the hgh will prevent lethargy.

Keeping good levels of hgh depends on living a healthy lifestyle. Literally. Eat RIGHT, live RIGHT, exercise RIGHT, and you'll have all the hgh released in response to any bodily requirement you might ever have that you actually need. Which brings me to another point. If your hgh levels ARE low, then they don't NEED to be any higher, which means you're doing it wrong.

Beneficial but how to increase it in a meaningful and useful way is unknown unless you do so with injections of GH. Honestly the holy grail for natural inbody stimulation as the loss of gh is directly associated with aging.

You've got this bass-ackwards.

Aging is directly associated with a loss of hgh. In other words, as our hgh levels fall, we begin to experience accelerated aging.

I think we can both agree, exercise GH release is very unlikely if at all to provide any meaningful NBE - especially since it requires intense exercise, that most people fail to achieve and if you are doing so daily, you'll be hurting your chances for NBE.

Completely FALSE. EXERCISE is a key component of PREVENTING ACCELERATED AGING. So, following the logic of my statement above, if loss of hgh means accelerated aging, and exercise prevents accelerated aging, exercise must have a profound effect on keeping hgh levels high. Lolwut.

It's also not entirely true that kids always necessarily have higher hgh levels than adults. More recent studies have shown decreasing levels of HGH in kids today compared to kids in the past. What does this mean? Well. What aren't kids today doing as much of? EXERCISE! Combined with poor diets consisting of too many calories and not enough nutrition and then today's fast-paced world limiting their sleep and BAM. There goes all that hgh and now kids are aging faster. Haven't you noticed that phenomena? I have. So have lots of scientists and other medical researchers. Do I need to bring up links to material to prove it like I did to debunk your melatonin garbage?

6g-day of L-arginine I have seen data that it does boost GH. That said, its not so innocent as its traditionally used as a vasodilator, has effect on blood pressure etc.

GABA does as well but need to do so at high doses. The safety risk then comes into play of taking large doses of GABA for prolonged periods of time ie months to years.

These are PROTEINS, the first is an amino acid, the second is a complete protein chain, as with ALL PROTEINS A CERTAIN BALANCE MUST BE MAINTAINED. So taking these as supplements only makes sense if you aren't getting enough of them in your food, and then only enough to achieve proper BALANCE should be taken!

Yes I agree there is now a movement and awareness that traditional training isn't healthy or even the best option. That more traditional yoga, tai chi, running are more effective. You're a minority that understands exercise and how certain forms of exercise have differing implications. You should in my opinion offer advise assuming others are... Because 90% or more of north American are clueless. They still think life a free weight or doing elliptical in a gym will give weight loss and health changing results..

LOLWUT!

NO! NO! NO!

Yoga, tai chi, running, etc. These are all aerobic exercises. They help improve catabolism and helps to LOSE WEIGHT. Lifting is ANAEROBIC and help improve ANABOLISM and helps to GAIN WEIGHT.

TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT BUT EQUALLY IMPORTANT KINDS OF EXERCISE!

As a direct result of lack of people being active as a result of TV, internet, cars: we simply do not need the calories as indicated for active individuals. Couple that with peoples having become accustomed to massive stomach distension as a result.. People FEEL they are hungry when there not. So yes, 1\3 to 1\2 for average person is absolutely appropriate. Considering they are typically eating 3000+ calories and 50% liquid unfibered artifically sweetened. A typical person could not put a meal together that was 1500 per day! They might for 1 single meal! Add in transfats, artifical sweetners, preservatives, substances like pink slime in the USA, hormone injections, cmo feed animals, gmo human food which all make you put on weight.

Which is why we're telling you to get off your bum and EXERCISE. Eat right and EXERCISE. Ditch the modern lifestyle and GET ACTIVE.

Because trust me, it is extremely difficult to get proper nutrition even trying to eat right without being in excess of 2000 calories if not 2500. But minimizing calories really isn't that hard if you watch what you eat. My biggest meal of the day is only roughly 600-700 calories. That's dinner. It's a chicken sandwich. If I ate a chicken salad instead, ditched the cheese, used more veg, I could easily make my dinner just as satisfying and keep it under 300 calories. Which is what I might do if I really wanted to keep eating chicken when I move to a weight gaining diet. I don't. So won't happen that way. But it's a good example.

If you are only going to do one. Pre is absolutely more essential. That said, there is real value in post nutrition but consists of very different intake requirements.

Pretty sure timarie was just teasing you, but I'm gunna tell it to you straight: WRONG! Pre and Post are EQUALLY IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY when working out. If you're NOT working out, but just living a "normal" regularly active life, then it's important to keep yourself constantly processing another meal. Between 5 to 7 small meals a day.

There's also very little difference between pre- and post- nutritional needs. Both are different from the needs for other times of the day and any other day.

Much of that has to with DNA (can provide with scientific evidence of growth stop signalling if needed of long bones etc) and stem cells.

Actually you're oversimplifying. It's actually far more complex than that, and it's not that the DNA determines you reached your potential, it's that your DNA begins to deteriorate and you no longer produce enough stem cells to make repairs. It's very different, and this is what AGING means. And I've already told you how to slow aging.

Actually, protein isn't key. Its anti-oxidants, fats, fiber, sugars then protein. And when it comes to protein, its important to vary it up. Vegatative proteins are significantly healthier then animal and animal byproduct protein - with exception of eggs. Whey is simply the most marketed cause it was most available one and had the high anabolic score. Milk suupliers finally had an outlet for their waste product. That said, others were pretty close and in real world application equal.

NO!

Protein is the single most important nutrient to the human body. It is the nutrient we need the most of. Period. Then it's fiber. Then GOOD fats, then vitamins and minerals... Anti-oxidants are fully handled by then. We need to AVOID sugars!

As for whey... Why do you have such a vendetta against whey? Are you vegan?

The fact is if you are doing lifting you will require more BIO-AVAILABLE protein than you can get with vegetable proteins.

Have to admit you kind of surprised me with lack of knowledge and stereotyping of it but since you don't use I can see how. That stereotype is of the 80's and 90's. That's not what it does ... Yawn. I'm also surprised you do not use it, you should. Very quickly. Its an energy source. It helps turn burned out ADP molecules into ATP as you workout and does so instantiously. So it gives your muscles massive energy stores for longer duration training both for slow twitch and fast twitch fibers and explosive power gains. It does retain water transiantly in your muscle fibers, buts also a good thing, the added mass allows you to lift more, thereby increasing the effectiveness of your workout. Then you excrete the excess fluid which is minimal but you still benefit in the end. Net positive. Its the single most researched ingredient in sports nutrition.

Creatine isn't "nutrition". Creatine is an enhancement drug. You're telling timarie to dope herself up. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. But isn't necessarily a good thing either. And while we do know that creatine improves high intensity performance, it does not improve low intensity performance and no real research has been done regarding side effects. Only for desired effects.

That said. There's been ample EVIDENCE that doping yourself with creatine can have NEGATIVE side effects, known to athletes, and the ones with a brain on their shoulders won't touch the stuff without medical supervision if at all.

[LookingForward2NBE]

I'm only going to address the gh points cause I don't want this thread locked for out of topic discussions. If you want to start a new thread Abi about the other points you raised, go ahead but I can tell you are simply off base on so many points.

1. GH is important IMO and you say it isn't because "your hgh was probably not great"... So its a feeling.. (insert eye roll)

So GH doesn't do anything, yet I know 1st hand the effects of hyperactive pituatary function due to a tumor that caused excess hGH release later in life and the side effects were obvious that gh can exert effects at any point in your life (saw 1st hand: organ growth, bone lengthening and thickening etc).

I also many casual bodybuilders who use the synthetic form recreationally and have seen things like hands grow in just 3 months such that there wedding band no longer fits, increased shoe size, scalp doming due to fused plates..

Its use is typical in the sports word to help heal ligaments (due to poor profusion which leads to long healing times)..

So yeah, up'ing gh has nothing to due with growth. Your opinion holds no validity with real-life application of clinical proven outcomes. Hell, you don't even know if you were low or not.


2. My comment does say that the "loss of gh is directly associated with aging"...

So how did I get "bass-ackwards."

3. Melatonin - keep believing what you choose to but the health community is finally waking up (pun intended) to the health consequences of taking melatonin period. Its only safe for use to reset your circadian clock over a couple days. Any longer and you risk a drop in key hormones. I have a study showing in just a single dose how it negatively feedbacks the testosterone signalling pathway but can not share it as I have signed a nondisclosure agreement in 2005 regarding the work I did on it (even though its in the public domain). If you have any skills in regarding graphs, you'll see it. I'm not the only one saying it, the evils of melatonin and being touted by many Dr.s lately. Melatonin could be beneficial but in no way as it has been promoted and at the doses typically sold as a sleep aid.

4. 6-12months should be enough time to see if your responder and willing to stay committed to doing it. If your getting results, you gonna keep up with whatever you are doing and IMO if that very little intense exercise .. Even if it extends to 3+ years so be it. I see no harm in that what so ever.

5. L-arginine and gaba: for someone who comes off as strongly as you: you're clueless if you actually believe the dribble about "only makes sense if your not getting enough and then only enough to balance"

That might be the less educated thing I've read in a long time. You supplement based on what physiological outcome you want. Certain products can produce unexpected and potentially beneficial results at way more then standard physiological balanced norms (Ascorbic acid is probably the best and well known, L-arginine is a classic as is creatine and the list is vast)

Aging.
Yes I kept it brief but its telomere shortening that leads to aging as well specific DNA genes that active based on certain physiological milestones being achieved. Antioxidants and GH work to extend life because they prevent organ damage that signals our DNA to start literally dieing (shortening)

Nothing to do with stem cells. We have a vast repository and that goes with you well into old age and death.

Being healthy is more about
1. What you consume as food or beverages.
2. What you on your skin (soaps, shampoos, lotions, makeup)
3. Living as low a stressful life as possible
4. Staying active (walking stairs vs taking an elevator 2 floors, parking far away at a mall vs. The closest spot possible etc) and mentally stimulated
5. Strong bonds with people who are positive and not negative (once again to keep cortisol low).
6. Eating light - never to fullness but even that is a misnomer since as a society we abuse how much is deemed a portion so eating light for many is still too much.

What isn't going to make you healthy: vigorous exercise if you have all the above in the wrong direction.

Go put in a 45min vigourous workout then eat gmo foods, pink slime hamburger, hormone injected beef, sterile sugar imbalance dairy milk, high fructose corn syrup artificially sweetend diet soda and whole wjeat bagel the size of the sears tower. All the while snacking on pesticide laden grapes thinking that makes it all better cause you a few dirty grapes and worked for 45mins.

Give me 20years and we will see who is the higher functioning individual and in better health... Doubt it will be the person who exercised 4hrs a week at 80% of the mhr.

Wrt to exercise, catabolism any further should be discussed in its own thread and this orginal poster posting IMO. Even though I went long here.

And No I'm not a Vegan. As for whey.. Why.. Cause the way 90% of the industry makes their "shake formulas" is harmful and people substitute what should be a lean protein for overprocessed junk. Most formulas are made with what is called whey protein concentrate 34% as the primary ingredient and maltodextrin (which is IMO right up there HFCS). Its a product that has no purpose...you can easily get your needs from real whole foods and cheaper! And no you do not. That's another fallacy perpetuated by publications and paid for research industry professionals that are designed for a specific outcome. Howver, if your the 1% of performers that really benefit... So be it. But that's far and few in between.. Let me guess you take those beautifully designed humidors of disgustingness that are called protein or health bars.

But its also because we as a culture need to stop drinking milk in its current form which a huge leading cause of obesity, heart disease, allergies, ibs etc. We human naturally lose lactase after chikdhood because physiologically we don't need it and yet the "milk does a body good" maintains its foot hold.

[lora]

Answering your question about which one to take: amino acids or human growth hormone, they are all pretty much the same thing. For you HGH spray, it is not literally HGH in a bottle. Rather, it has in it a bunch of things that are known to be stimulators of HGH ,like the list we mentioned earlier. The HGH spray (like other HGH supplements) will probably have the amino acids in there as well as GABA and deer velvet and all the things that are known to stimulate the production of HGH.

Ok, so to give me a better understanding... you said you are very low in HGH, specifically 0.5 (normal range up to 10). What is the minimum that is considered to be in the normal range? A "range" usually has a minimum and a maximum value. And is this ng/mL? If you give me the unit of measurement then I could at least understand your "0.5" in some context.

What did your doctor say about this deficiency? When a doctor finds something like this in your blood test, it is their responsibility to lead you to the next step in fixing your situation.

And you already now why BO did not work for you. Regardless of it having HGH or not, you still have a hormonal imbalance with a progesterone deficiency and too much estrogen. So who knows. Maybe once you balance out your hormones, the HGH in the BO will help you this time.

This is what is involved in the production and use of your HGH: your pituitary glands and your liver. "Somatotropin, is a simple protein made up of a single chain of 191 amino acids. It is released by the pituitary gland, starting in childhood and continuing into old age. It moves from the bloodstream to the liver, where it is converted into somatomedin-C (also known as growth factors), which are messenger molecules that carry hGH’s message of growth into other parts of the body." Your doctor should help you look into the possible causes for your HGH deficiency, because (I don't recall your age atm) but I don't think you are old enough yet to blame it on aging. I really don't think that there is a huge chance of another HGH supplement in your diet to help your case if none of the others did. Supplements are meant to ADD to what you already get in your diet, and it is strange that yours is still so low considering all the HGH supplements and foods you have taken/eaten. So your doctor should really try to help you to see what is going on to make your HGH levels so low.

I did not realize that you do not exercise. You will not get the most out of your protein shakes if you do not exercise! As for not thinking that you get enough of those amino acids in your shakes: I doubt it. Well, how many shakes do you drink in a day? I drink two a day usually, and in one of my shakes I get about 10 grams of arginine, crystine, tyrosine, histidine, proline, and glutamine/glutaminic acid combined (in that order). I am sure that I get enough with two shakes, not to mention that you can also get these amino acids from your diet as well, remember (Arginine: red meat, nuts, spinach and lentils, whole grains, seafood, eggs; Tyrosine: eggs, soy, avocados, almonds, seaweed, parmesan cheese, fish, turkey). So, you are probably getting enough of those aminos as well. It is important to remember that these are CONDITIONALLY ESSENTIAL amino acids, which means that they are NOT essential. Why? Because your body can make this amino acid on its own.

As for the Emergen-C packs, you will get 10mg of vitamin B3 in a pack which is 50% of your daily value, so taking two packs a day should give you more than enough. You should probably check your multivitamin and add them up to see how much you really get on a daily basis, and then again, you are probably getting much in your diet as well as these foods are abundant in it: fish, chicken, pork, liver, peanuts, beef, mushrooms, peas, etc. So, my guess is that you are already getting enough. So yeah, you probably won't need to take any extra supplements for it.

So, bottom line is this: you are clearly getting enough from your diet to have a healthy level of HGH, so something else must be the cause of your deficiency. I would talk to your doctor about this, or whomever helped you get your HGH levels tested, as it was their responsibility to begin with and they kinda dropped the ball on that.
[/quote]


about HGH spray, it's not the same as amino acids,
Vital HGH spray contains,
Hepar Suis 6X, Human growth hormone 30X, Pituitary Porcine.

yes tim this what is written on my test report, and of course i asked about this point, and searched a lot and i found that it's normal to have no growth hormone at all after age 25, so the normal range for this age become from 0 to 10, if i'm 0 hgh, it's normal for my age and if i exceed 10 it's abnormal . so this range is correct . and lucky me i'm not 0

and for sorry the doctors here don't pay any attention to such things, you know something, i did some tests when i was 20 which has irregularity too and my doctor told me that everything is fine and i shouldn't do any thing, while my progesterone was under the normal from that time and i didn't notice that till now .

doctors are helpless in that.

and you are right about hgh stimulating supplements, what i'm taking is enough . i think exercise is helping me, but i don't bear much effort, my fitness is zero like i'm very old, with low effort i feel very exhausted, and most of the time my energy is so low to encourage me to begin exercising for a minutes .

and i drink 2 cup of protein shakes a day to help me gaining weight, some energy and nutrition, you know protein is not only for hgh or muscle growth, it's the building unit for many tissues in the body .

i'll read what you wrote many times, you mentioned a lot of useful things thanks

[timarie]

about HGH spray, it's not the same as amino acids,
Vital HGH spray contains,
Hepar Suis 6X, Human growth hormone 30X, Pituitary Porcine.

yes tim this what is written on my test report, and of course i asked about this point, and searched a lot and i found that it's normal to have no growth hormone at all after age 25, so the normal range for this age become from 0 to 10, if i'm 0 hgh, it's normal for my age and if i exceed 10 it's abnormal . so this range is correct . and lucky me i'm not 0

and for sorry the doctors here don't pay any attention to such things, you know something, i did some tests when i was 20 which has irregularity too and my doctor told me that everything is fine and i shouldn't do any thing, while my progesterone was under the normal from that time and i didn't notice that till now .

doctors are helpless in that.

and you are right about hgh stimulating supplements, what i'm taking is enough . i think exercise is helping me, but i don't bear much effort, my fitness is zero like i'm very old, with low effort i feel very exhausted, and most of the time my energy is so low to encourage me to begin exercising for a minutes .

and i drink 2 cup of protein shakes a day to help me gaining weight, some energy and nutrition, you know protein is not only for hgh or muscle growth, it's the building unit for many tissues in the body .

i'll read what you wrote many times, you mentioned a lot of useful things thanks

About the HGH spray-- I was telling you from what I saw of the HGH spray products online. If you have a specific spray in mind that you want us to look at, then give us the link please. All of these products contain mostly a boat-load of HGH stimulators and amino acids though. But I am willing to have an open mind.

I am sure that a product like this certainly won't hurt you and will help you possibly in some small temporary ways, but it will be just that: temporary, because we will not be addressing the root of the problem by just supplementing the outcome. As I mentioned to you earlier, the pituitary gland is responsible for your HGH release. And doctor's may consider 0HGH to be normal at your age mostly because "normal" is defined by the norm, not always by what is healthy. In this case, most people (as Abi mentioned earlier) are having less and less HGH produced due to their lifestyles and diets and yes, this WILL catch up to them. So, all these people with unhealthily low HGH levels? The doctor is comparing you to them, and you don't want that. You want a healthy level of HGH. HGH can be raised gradually over time with exercise being brought into one's lifestyle though, for sure. And definitely remember your sleep. Try to get your body to produce it on its own instead of supplementing it, because then your body won't be so dependent on supplements all the time.

I am really sorry about your doctors. Our doctors here aren't the best either, to be honest. But it IS their job to help us with obvious help problems (although they never seem to recognize the benefits of herbs). Maybe it is not so much "their job" to proactively tell you when you have a health issue where you are from. That stinks Well at least it sounds like you have the best meat in the world, at least that is good!

As for talking about protein: remember that protein shakes offer a great source of protein, but not all protein is protein shakes. And yes I do know that protein is necessary for building the body for EVERY person, which is what I told Lookingforward above (see the third-to-last paragraph of post #32). Our bodies are 70% proteins, so our diet should be about 70% protein... and what I mean by this is what I wrote in post #32: that you should consume 70% of your body weight in grams of protein per day (in other words, if you weigh 100lbs, you should consume 70 grams of protein per day). You can get protein from numerous different sources. Whey protein is meant for those who need a more bioavailable form of protein, faster digesting protein, and those who cannot manage to eat more in their day. There is no harm in taking protein shakes (otherwise I would have told you NOT to take it), and it is a good source of protein. BUT, if you are able to get that protein that you need from whole foods, then whey protein shakes are just a more expensive option. Basically, that is it in a nutshell. But you are certainly right: protein is extremely important for everyone's diet.

As for you feeling fatigued, does a little bit of caffeine pick you up? I drink a pre-workout shake before my lower body workout every week (about to do it now, actually!) and it gets my sluggish butt up and moving! I am sure you have already thought of this.... I am just curious, what have you tried to help fight your fatigue? Maybe we can think of something.

[CancerStrikes2]

You say you disagree, but clearly disagree without knowing exactly with what you are disagreeing. Tai chi and yoga ARE forms of exercise. Asians are very much into their exercise and keeping physically active throughout the day. It is actually very much a part of their lifestyle, more than it is apart of an American lifestyle. And there is surprisingly nothing wrong with calories as long as it is 1) being used and 2) comes from good food (meaning, the calories are paired with nutrition that your body can use). The problem with most Americans is that there is very little nutritional value attached to those calories, and many people don't exercise/stay active.

Here is the definition, as it seems it is needed for clarification based on your response. Exercise: "an activity requiring physical effort." This is also what describes an active lifestyle. An active lifestyle consists of activities requiring physical effort. Sedentary: "means a lifestyle that includes only the light physical activity associated with typical day-to-day life." (notice, not activity requiring physical effort); Moderately active: "means a lifestyle that includes physical activity equivalent to walking about 1.5 to 3 miles per day at 3 to 4 miles per hour, in addition to the light physical activity associated with typical day-to-day life." Active: "means a lifestyle that includes physical activity equivalent to walking more than 3 miles per day at 3 to 4 miles per hour, in addition to the light physical activity associated with typical day-to-day life." And walking, as you know, is a form of exercise. So there you have it. Exercise is what is needed in a person's routine to be considered active. http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/...pter4.html

However, since there are so many people who are the "TV couch potato + Xbox player" as you mentioned above, the idea of what is an active lifestyle in America has become almost warped. They think (just as you mentioned above) that anything more than sitting all day long is considered an active lifestyle. For example, a person thinks they live an active lifestyle if they work a desk job and run an errand or two after work (which for most of us consists of getting in and out of our cars), and cooking dinner. So, when a person says "active lifestyle" such as you said above, this is typically what is included in that category (as they think that just getting out of the house makes them active!), but really does not require hardly any physical effort. So really, I think more Americans live a sedentary lifestyle than we may think. I know of the Asian lifestyle of which you are speaking, and typically across the board, they all have AT LEAST moderately active lifestyles and are much more active than the American lifestyle. In Asia, they typically incorporate "physical activity that requires effort" in their daily routines.

I think it is pretty obvious that exercise increases life expectancy, which happens for a reason. However, exercising not only inconveniences people but also requires physical effort that many in this excuse-making society would rather not do. And most things that people would rather not do in this culture, we don't do and we sure know how to come up with a million-and-one excuses as to why we don't need it. And, the reason for the fact that there is a huge health and fitness industry is because so many people get caught in this rut that is so common of our culture yet does not coexist with our fashion industry's superficial need to look great. And healthy diets are finally starting to become a little more mainstream. These two go hand-in-hand as baby-boomers are now of the age in which they are most concerned about these things for the purpose of prolonging their lives, increasing their energy, and just looking the best they can as they begin to age. Health and fitness was not always a big industry, but it is today for these reasons. I personally think it is a good thing.

Additionally, it can be tricky to compare a culture like America to an Asian culture. There are so many differences other than just health and fitness that I would not know where to begin. For example, they do not need a big booming health and fitness industry because they already individually take care of that, because in the Asian culture, there is an over-achiever, perform the best to one's ability, no excuses mentality that we often times have less of here because we nurture more of an understanding of one's setbacks mentality here, which often results in a mentality of excuses. So, it's not that Asians live longer because they don't have a fitness industry... it's more the opposite, that they don't have a fitness industry because they are already living longer because they individually take care of their fitness needs. They don't even really seem to need the motivation that our fitness industry provides for us (and still many of us don't even bother due to our cultural mentality of excuses!).

When you wrote such a lengthy post like this, it lost its purpose and creating more confusing as most goes to such board just to scan the words. This is not a contest; it is a board to view everyone’s opinion and not to make yourself sounded like the one who knows it all.

Your posted Exercise definition is conflicting with the original Taichi’s purpose. There is no physical effort taken place in Taichi. You believe Taichi is a form of exercising but it was not in the eyes of Asians. When you talk to the youngster, they would say Exercise in America is to get big & getting tone. For the 50’s, they would say for their mostly health benefits, loosing weight. The Taichi & Yoga in America is not the same like the one taught in Asia countries. Entrepreneurs have changed its originality meaning. Thousand years ago and even now in Asia countries, Taichi taught in high school, in monastery was to promote a better blood circulation (through different breathing technique along with very slow movements) due to lack of physical labor. You are not supposed to use any physical effort or use it to gain muscles. None so whatever...

Your Asian friends, are they the 1st generation here in America or not? The 1st, 2nd, 3rd are all different, their point of views are shaped up by years of living here in America, by their peers influence, by their surroundings, by society trends (digital age), the age (20’s don’t view the same as 50’s) and by their stereotype shapeup mind, etc.

There is no tricky at all to compare between Asian and American/European if you are not one of them that actually have grown up in both cultures long enough to differentiate. For example, Chinese foods here in America (or even in Dubai & Moscow) not the same as Chinese foods are served (cooked) in China/Singapore/Taiwan/Vietnam/Thai. Vietnamese foods are not the same here in America either. Those Vietnamese Pho & sandwich is not the same either. Mexican Tacos in US is not the same as the one served in Mexico. You get my point.

Asians in Asia don’t have the same American mentality of going to the gym, getting big, consume extra supplements and not only that, growing up in the countries that foods are rare and expensive, they don’t have the mean to eat a lot (fatty snacks or supplements). They use more labor strength to be physical active while we Americans are not.

You said everyone has some sort of physical active form... Well, I work at computer desk all day long. I sure don’t exercise. The only physical active things I do are mowing my own yard ¼ acre land, digging my own holes to plant my tree, playing piano to release my work stress, helping elderly when I got a chance. No walking, no jogging whatsoever.

If you eat properly + moderately, the so called modern exercise, the gym is not the MUST and that was my point in the last post.

My one cent today… Cheers,
-V

[timarie]

When you wrote such a lengthy post like this, it lost its purpose and creating more confusing as most goes to such board just to scan the words. This is not a contest; it is a board to view everyone’s opinion and not to make yourself sounded like the one who knows it all.

Honestly this is the first I have ever seen someone insinuate about a lengthy post on this forum as being written to enter a "contest," but I appreciate your thinking it so, . I honestly am a teacher for my career and when someone does not "get it" the first time when told in the brief, then I explain it thoroughly the second time. It is just how I am, and that is how I work, and it really has not failed me so far in helping people. So I apologize if you are turned off my my lengthiness in writing, but if a person "gets it" the first time, then perhaps you can say they are then spared of it And if you READ it, in no way can it make anything more confusing. I explain the definition of those things of which we are speaking, so that it can be more clear. Sometimes people disagree on things just because their personal definition/understanding of a term may be different, when in reality they may agree on the actual points being made, as is what I thought our case might be. And of course, if you want to skim it you will be confused, as anything involving a little bit of analyzing is confusing when skimmed. But that is your prerogative.

Your posted Exercise definition is conflicting with the original Taichi’s purpose. There is no physical effort taken place in Taichi. You believe Taichi is a form of exercising but it was not in the eyes of Asians. When you talk to the youngster, they would say Exercise in America is to get big & getting tone. For the 50’s, they would say for their mostly health benefits, loosing weight. The Taichi & Yoga in America is not the same like the one taught in Asia countries. Entrepreneurs have changed its originality meaning. Thousand years ago and even now in Asia countries, Taichi taught in high school, in monastery was to promote a better blood circulation (through different breathing technique along with very slow movements) due to lack of physical labor. You are not supposed to use any physical effort or use it to gain muscles. None so whatever...

I see you are referring to the non-combat form of Tai Chi, whereas I was thinking of the combat form. Ok then, technically it is not exercise then, agreed. And with this, going back to our main point, I don't think there is one Asian soul that does this and this alone. In fact, they live pretty stressful lives which is why they incorporate such a peaceful art form into their routine. Every 1st generation Asian I know is EXTREMELY active. They hardly ever sit, and they make sure to involve themselves in many extracurricular activities (this one Vietnamese family for while I nannied way back). There was a rule in the household where they were not allowed to watch any more than 1 hour of TV in a day, and the rest of the time they played outside, swam in the pool, or studied as I also tutored them. I also know a 1st generation Korean woman who is constantly involved in so many activities with her church and school, AND cares for her special-needs child full time. This woman, I never catch her sitting for very long, yet she is always eating. High metabolism! Because of a healthy lifestyle.

Your Asian friends, are they the 1st generation here in America or not? The 1st, 2nd, 3rd are all different, their point of views are shaped up by years of living here in America, by their peers influence, by their surroundings, by society trends (digital age), the age (20’s don’t view the same as 50’s) and by their stereotype shapeup mind, etc.

You're right about this, and I actually don't consider those 2nd and 3rd generation "Asians" to be Asian-- I refer to them as Asian-American, so when I referred to "Asians" in my previous post to you, I meant 1st generation because I was pretty sure that was what you were talking about... Thanks for asking, though.

There is no tricky at all to compare between Asian and American/European if you are not one of them that actually have grown up in both cultures long enough to differentiate. For example, Chinese foods here in America (or even in Dubai & Moscow) not the same as Chinese foods are served (cooked) in China/Singapore/Taiwan/Vietnam/Thai. Vietnamese foods are not the same here in America either. Those Vietnamese Pho & sandwich is not the same either. Mexican Tacos in US is not the same as the one served in Mexico. You get my point.

Asians in Asia don’t have the same American mentality of going to the gym, getting big, consume extra supplements and not only that, growing up in the countries that foods are rare and expensive, they don’t have the mean to eat a lot (fatty snacks or supplements). They use more labor strength to be physical active while we Americans are not.

Yes, I get your point, and actually, that is why they are tricky to compare. If you have ever done a science experiment in middle school, if you are trying to measure certain variables, you need to minimize all other variables so that the changes can be credited to the changes of the variables you are measuring. For example, if someone is trying to compare different fertilizers and they have plant A and plant B, they want to make those plants the same kind of plant. They also will want to make sure they are being watered the same amount and frequency, and are given the same amount of sunlight. Avoiding other variables. See, there are way too many differences between their culture and ours to say that they are longer-living BECAUSE they don't have American gyms. That is, ridiculous. There are so many other variables at play, here... their length of lives being longer than ours has to do with the fact that they live MUCH more active lifestyles (always running around here and there, being involved with many functions) than the typical American lives, and they eat healthier foods and more often throughout the day. They also walk after the last meal of their day (well, many of them, at least) http://www.healthambition.com/meal-frequency/ . As I said, at least American gyms are encouraging our lazy-ass mentalities to become active. If we are not going to change our lifestyles on our own, how does that make the gym the culprit of our "shorter" lives? I assure you that the Americans with the shorter lives are the ones who never set a foot in the gym AND never become anything more than sedentary or moderately active, at best. People in the gym are active, so I do not see how that makes the gym the culprit of death...

You said everyone has some sort of physical active form... Well, I work at computer desk all day long. I sure don’t exercise. The only physical active things I do are mowing my own yard ¼ acre land, digging my own holes to plant my tree, playing piano to release my work stress, helping elderly when I got a chance. No walking, no jogging whatsoever.

If you eat properly + moderately, the so called modern exercise, the gym is not the MUST and that was my point in the last post.

I... don't know what you're referring to when you say that I said "everyone has some sort of physical active form." I DO remember saying, though, that many Americans have a warped idea of what is considered "active" because our sedentary people go to the extremes of being EXTREMELY sedentary, and so everyone doing anything more than the "TV couch potato + Xbox player" (I liked that, think I'll keep using it), even if it is just a little more, thinks themselves to be active, when they are not necessarily so. Which is why I defined "sedentary," "moderately active," and "active" in my previous post so that it cannot be left to subjective opinions of what is "sedentary" and what is "active." As for you, I am sure that you walk from the mower to your piano and you don't ride the mower everywhere you go Meaning, you DO some walking. As for how much that is, only YOU would know (so, I cannot say if you are considered sedentary, moderately active, or active), and you could find that out by wearing a pedometer throughout the day. It would tell you how many miles you walk in all the steps you take throughout the day.

And no one ever said that the so-called modern exercise (which is not modern at all, honestly, but I know what you are trying to get at) of the gym was a must. I cannot see that, ANYWHERE in this thread. But what is funny, I KNEW that is what your definition of exercise was, which is why you got defensive and all "I disagree" when I said that exercise was necessary for a healthy lifestyle, and which is why I re-defined it for you above!!!!

Thanks for your two cents.

[EllaC]

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