[mochaccino]

I don't know anywhere near enough either. I feel like I'm making myself a guinea pig for a new way of using PC and Im not at all comfortable with that. I wish that I had a more tried and true method to rely on. I think that for now I really need to cut my PC use down to a bare minimum. Even a tiny amount of PC might be enough to help but too much could be a disaster.

Mumma Bear (on the NB forum) and Notsobusty did grow on programs that are extremely similar to mine, and there may be others that I can't remember. Notsobusty shrunk when she took a full dose of PC for 2 weeks during luteal phase. She did not have a progesterone deficiency as far as she knew. That might mean that it's possible for someone with normal hormone levels to seriously OD on progesterone in only one cycle. That worries me, but I'm still glad to know about it. I used PC for 9 days at the beginning of this program, before starting PM, and I had one sign of progesterone toxicity. It was only one sign, but it was pretty severe. I felt extremely sleepy, but not just sleepy. It was more like I had just come out of anesthesia. I described my experience near the end of my last program thread. Sleepiness and confusion don't sound like such serious symptoms, but they were bad enough that it was kind of scary. I still swelled up a bit anyway, and I definitely did not shrink. Interestingly, it did not lengthen my cycle at all, but I'm not sure what to make of that.

I'm going to skip PC this month, which will give me time to figure out how I'm going to use it. I think it might use it for 3 days total, stopping 2 days before I expect my period to start. Dr.Lee claims that 2 days should be long enough to prevent any disruptions of the cycle length, but almost all his advice is aimed at people who are progesterone deficient.

[Doll]

Wow, I didn't know you could OD on progesterone like that! At least you're aware now, so you can be more careful in the future. I've been having some crazy nights of sleep these past few months, too. A lot like how you described, being under anesthesia. But it happens every night, even during my breaks. I have very vivid, strange dreams that I can't pull myself out of. I'm very aware that they're dreams when I'm having them, but no matter how much I tell dream me that it's a bad dream and to wake up, I can't. I will wake up a million times during the night, I'll be awake for a few minutes, and ALWAYS fall right back into the same exact dream (not only is it rare for that to happen at all, I don't know if it's ever happened to me before :/) It's actually very terrifying. I wonder if I'm having some kind of similar problem...Even now that I'm cleansing, I'm still having this problem, so I don't know. Might cleanse longer that usual to see if it helps.

Sounds like a good plan with the PC, to take it for such a short period of time. But taking a break for a month will probably do you the most good. Maybe when you take it for three days, you can spread the days out, and take it for three days total, two days apart or something. That way it's not all at once, and since you're not progesterone deficient, it won't overwhelm your body too much.

My fingers are crossed for you, guinea pig! Who knows, maybe you'll find a good way for those who aren't progesterone deficient to grow on PC!

[mochaccino]

I woke up and my boobs were leaking clear liquid!! Maybe that weird dream I had was a sign The liquid is perfectly clear and it's definitely not milk. It's only one tiny drop at a time, so I can't voluntarily "express" it or anything. Is that the right word? . Lactation is very contrary to BE, but this doesn't appear to be milk (yet) so I'm not really worried (yet). I'm actually pretty happy about this weird development since it's one of the first sure signs I've had in 10 months that something is actually happening hormonally. I ovulated on day 13, which is weird because PM usually lengthens the follicular phase. It's now day 14, and this is the first day that I'm taking my Greenbush herbs again, but I doubt that they caused this. I wonder if I'm experiencing the boomerang rise in prolactin that Isabelle mentioned was a possibility after stopping PM. Can that happen in only 2 days?

[mochaccino]

My period is 4 days late. I've been keeping track of my cycle since last November. If I haven't gotten my period by tomorrow, this cycle will be the longest I've had since I started keeping track. My BBT chart indicated that I ovulated on day 13. I always thought that PM lengthened the cycle by making the follicular phase longer. Why would it shorten my follicular phase AND give me an unusually long luteal phase?

A question for the ladies whose cycles were lengthened by PM: Assuming you were aware of when you ovulated, were your follicular phases unusually long, followed by a normal lengthluteal phase? If so, Im fudged.

On top of that, I really haven't felt or seen any differences this cycle. I don't expect to grow boobs over night, but this seems suspiciously like the same old story all over again. I dont have any pains, tingles or swelling whatsoever. The only "results" Ive had are the leakage that I mentioned, and the change in cycle length. Im confused

I think I might start a thread to solicit some info from people who used PM plus BC without cycling. Ive been considering trying a very simple program of PM plus progestin based BC after my herbs run out, but first I want to try to figure out why some people have massive growth with this combo, and others get nothing at all. It's not enough to say that some things work for some people and not others. I have a theory that it might have everything to do with the kind of progestin used, but I need a lot more info. I also might try contacting some of the people who grew with this combo to ask if they've retained all their growth.

In the meantime, I might also try doing some waist reduction with topical yohimbine and a corset, but I have to save up so I can buy the custom corset that I want. I might start the topical yohimbine much sooner. Maybe even tomorrow

I also want to admit that Ive been a bad girl and I haven't been noogling *smacks hand*. I really prefer not to noogle during the day, though I admire those who some how manage to make it work. The snoogling hasn't been working out. I can sometimes snoogle for a whole 3 hours, but other times it falls off in less than an hour, and when it doesn't it sometimes ruins the quality of my sleep so much that I feel crappy during the day. I may or may not give noogling another go in the future. Im finding it hard to commit either to hardcore noogling or to stopping cold turkey, and noogling is not the sort of thing you can get away with commiting yourself to halfway.

[mochaccino]

This is just an idle thought, but I wonder if I've been having issues because of my body fat percentage. I don't know what the exact % is, but I do know it's much, much higher than most people would expect based on my weight and my basic measurements. It's like you took a normal 5'4" woman and made a model of her out of fluffy marshmallow like a Peep I know I've mentioned exercise a lot, but I have not been consistent about it. I really need to get serious about exercising. I wonder if I need a much higher dose than most people so that I can keep the pills from just being swallowed up by all my estrogenic fat. I need some sort of sign, any sign that all these phytohormones aren't just bouncing off me like rubber bullets. I've already decided that I'll take the full dose of Greenbush herbs during the second half of my cycle, but I already ran out of SP and I wont be buying more, so it's just gonna be fenugreek and wild yam. I don't think I'm going to bother to drink the tea any more, so I'll be upping my dose of FG and WY to 12 pills each. I know it sounds like a lot, but Greenbush typically recommends 9 pills each, plus a fairly strong FG/Fennel tea twice daily, and that doesn't even include the slight systemic effect from phytoestrogen massage. Plus, when I took 9 Greenbush pills a day along with tea, I never felt anything, either good or bad, so I do have experience with dosing. I'm not just pulling this dose out of thin air.

Now if only my period would show up so that I can start the next PM cycle and start experimenting!

[TibetanPrincess]

Hey Mocha, I think its time to get the saliva testing done. It makes all this guess work far less when it comes to what and how much to use.

I am so happy I did as I had no Idea I was low on everything. My MD is prescribing me both bioidentical estroil and progesterone. He said its different than the over the counter stuff you buy w/o a script. Then he may give me estradiol. I can't wait for that as it is the most feminizing hormone and I cannot believe I am low on it.

Maybe taper down of the BC? I know some synthetic progestins make other hormone go out of whack. Just a thought.

[mochaccino]

Thanks, Tibetan Im actually not on BC. I was just considering the possibility of starting it.

Did you have symptoms? Hormonal ones, like bloating or headaches? Thyroid ones, like hair loss or tiredness?

[Doll]

If you haven't tried BC yet, I STRONGLY suggest you look into it a lot before doing it, especially if you're only doing it for NBE. I was on BC on and off for years (originally to stabilize my almost complete lack of estrogen), and it never did anything negative to me until the very last time I tried it. Then it gave me THE WORST side effects I've ever experienced, including a month and a half of bleeding and a completely destroyed libido (it's been a year and a half now and I still don't have the libido I used to have). And I NEVER grew at all on it. There's no saying whether or not you will grow from it, and you might find that the risks don't make it worth it. Actually, I swelled a little bit from the libido herbs I took AFTER the birth control mess, rather than the actual birth control.

I know it's your decision and I know my reaction to BC wasn't normal, and I'm in no way telling you not to take it, but it's always good to know the dangers before getting into something. No one ever told me of any side effects besides possibly clearing up my acne, bigger boobs and shorter, lighter periods. :/ So I just like to make sure that other people are aware that there ARE other side effects, and it's a much bigger decision to get on it than people make it seem.

[TibetanPrincess]

Mocha,

I was having scanty menses and late. I had noticed fine line wrinkles suddenly appear, more white hair, and muscle loss. It was all apparent. When your hormones drop, you start looking dried up like a river in the summer.

Its that "your out of your prime" look.

I wasn't sure what you were doing with BC, I just know you mentioned it alot lately.

I had a friend who's breasts grew almost 2 cup sizes when they got on IUD I believe it was the copper one with progestin only. They were fabulous looking at that.

[mochaccino]

I got my period today, so I started my next cycle of PM. I want to finish one full cycle at the full dose of PM and Greenbush, and if I still feel like nothing is happening, I'll finally do a saliva test. I still don't understand what sort of hormonal disorder would cause absolutely no symptoms, even when poked with a large stick in the form of loads of phytohormones.

If I get my hormones tested, I'll need to take a break from NBE for a full cycle in order to allow my hormone levels to stabilize before I test them. Then I'll need to take another break while I test them at least twice over the course of a cycle.

Tibetan, how often do you need to test and at what times over the course of a cycle? I'm surprised that Dr.Lee's site doesn't give more info on how to track hormonal changes over the course of a cycle.