[blomst]

I've put my jabbering a quote here so that you have a good point to skip down to

Welp, I've now been popping back in and out of this forum since starting to understand my health problems about a year ago and still have not made a lot of effort in the NBE department. It's a little difficult for me to say how my health has improved or declined over this time because I have not had blood tests since summer, but I have not gained inches on my waist and I feel that I have made a lot of progress in overcoming some psychological issues about my health and self-image.

I began using progesterone cream in October, and while I have not had any breast growth, my cycle became normal while on it and I was able to have a normal cycle after going off of it. (I chose to go back on it this cycle though, due to my acne, hair loss and hot flashes coming back pretty strong).

After a very rough year, I feel that my head is now much clearer and I am a more confident and mature person. Still, it makes me sad and distressed when I have to rinse off the bunches of hair that fall out and stick to my hands in the shower, that my face is often covered in oozy, scabby spots and always covered in scars, and that the weird little mounds of flesh on my chest won't turn into breasts. Especially since the things I've tried to begin to address these hormonal problems don't seem to have done anything for them.

So now is the time for me to take the next step and accept that I have to experiment. Most of my hesitation has been due to the lack of clear, in-depth and non-conflicting information on all of these different compounds. But that requirement for going through with anything has just become an unrealistic expectation that gets me absolutely nowhere. I've realized that to correct these problems, I can't expect to be able to eat my veggies and take my vitamins and minerals and get good sleep and have my androgen problem go away - I'll probably end up on bc and/or spiro and it would probably mean going bald and growing a beard before I even do that. I've decided to just take a bit of a leap of faith with some legit NBE.

And so begins me developing a real program. Regardless of where along the chains of metabolism and hormone production the real problem(s) lie, excess T and DHT are clearly problematic here. Not sure what my estrogen status is, but the state of my skin, nails and fat distribution would indicate that it's either low or not being allowed by the androgens to work properly.

Basic Info:
Sex: Female
Age: 18
Bra size: 34A, loose cups (started wearing this when I was 14)
Concerns: puffy nipples, possibly tubular breasts, they look stuck at Tanner stage IV, want to add fat to hips and butt, fix acne, hair loss and hirsutism.
Diet:Throughout middle school and high school I ate mostly junk. A couple of years ago I started to try to eat healthy but became obsessed with food. Now I feel that I am close to something balanced and sustainable. The only things I really avoid are 'industrial' oils (soybean, canola, corn) and packaged chips/cookies/cereals. I eat some meat and will be able to eat a lot more when I go home for the summer, pasture-raised dairy, raw fruits and vegetables, white rice and sprouted grain bread. Over the last couple of months I have been eating more treats like licorice and smoothies and frozen yogurt and the occasional soda, but since loosening up on my eating I've lost a couple of inches off my waist and am feeling happier and more energetic, and most importantly my binge eating is nowhere to be seen.
Family: I think there are some big-boobied women in my family, but I'm going for a B or (if the universe would be so kind) C cup. My mother is a C cup. She has dealt with hormonal problems but she never had excess androgens. My older sister was a later bloomer than me and never really grew breasts. She has always had worse acne but never hair loss. And she has had irregular periods, like I have. Our problems are definitely connected. It might have been due to our mother taking BC not many years before she had us, or maybe the ridiculous amount of stress we had at school and at home.

Measurements:
Waist: 31"
Under bust: 33"
Bust: 35"
Hips: 38"
Butt: 39"

Currently taking:
-Vitamin B6 (50 mg)
-Pyridoxal 5-Phosphate, a form of B6 (34mg)
-Zinc Oronate (60 mg)
-Vitamin D3 (5,000-10,000 iu)
-Chromium Picolinate(500-1000mcg)
-Magnesium Glycinate (200-600mg)
-Krill Oil for E and omega-3, Cod Liver Oil for A and omega-3 (I don't take these every day and need to be more consistent)
-Progesterone Cream in luteal phase (20-60mg)

Planning to Take:
-Inositol
-MSM
-Silica
-Borage oil for GLA
-PM for the powerful phytoestrogen and beta-sisterol
-PM spray (Ainterol 40%)
-Spearmint (tea)
-Saw palmetto

All of these I either have already or have placed an order for. I'm not sure about how to take the borage oil, spearmint and SP yet because I don't understand their constituents well. The anti-androgen effects don't seem confusing, but I would like to know more about how they affect the synthesis and function of estrogen and progesterone. I am still afraid of the PM, but not anymore than I am of BC. I will take it in doses to mimic the natural levels of estrogen throughout the menstrual cycle and just... see what happens, I guess.

I kind of want to get blood tests done before adding these things so I can quantify what they do, but my borage oil and PM should be here by the end of the week and I just want to start with them. I doubt things are much better or worse than they were last July. I want to find a good doctor to help me though. By now I expect doctors to cover their ears and throw BC prescriptions at me, but I bet there's a good one out there, maybe even a naturopath, that could help me with this.

So, there's my bit. I'll update with doses and the effects of these things. I am always eager to hear opinions and experience from others, so I hope you will share any that you have!

[tempestuous]

Hi I'll be following this thread. I also have a hormonal problem (tuberous breasts) and even went so far as breast implant surgery to try to fix it (which failed). It's interesting to me that you said this might be due to your mom being on BC before having you or you having large amounts of stress, because those things are exactly what I suspected for myself. I also ate junk during my formative years (lots of sweets, chips, frozen fries, etc). Last fall it was discovered I had a large complex ovarian cyst, which some think is a further sign of estrogen dominance. This happened after taking only maca btw, so watch out for that. Right now I'm trying vitex, but I want to start NBE so badly. Vitex is supposed to balance your hormones, and it's supposedly better to take it alone and before NBE. I have also found some sources online saying that tuberous breasts may be caused by low progesterone, and vitex raises progesterone. Maybe look into that

[blomst]

Hi I'll be following this thread. I also have a hormonal problem (tuberous breasts) and even went so far as breast implant surgery to try to fix it (which failed). It's interesting to me that you said this might be due to your mom being on BC before having you or you having large amounts of stress, because those things are exactly what I suspected for myself. I also ate junk during my formative years (lots of sweets, chips, frozen fries, etc). Last fall it was discovered I had a large complex ovarian cyst, which some think is a further sign of estrogen dominance. This happened after taking only maca btw, so watch out for that. Right now I'm trying vitex, but I want to start NBE so badly. Vitex is supposed to balance your hormones, and it's supposedly better to take it alone and before NBE. I have also found some sources online saying that tuberous breasts may be caused by low progesterone, and vitex raises progesterone. Maybe look into that

Hiya I'll be interested to hear about your vitex experience, since it was something I've been interested in since I started learning about natural PCOS treatments. I actually bought a couple bottles of capsules but I never ended up using them because I heard that you need to take a tincture instead of powder, and they were so cheap anyway. I was allll about progesterone when I started my self-treatment and I think I was right in being so concerned with progesterone because I really think the PC helped me, but even after applying it to my breasts for 4-5 cycles, there was no indication that anything was changing with regards to shape or size. I will keep the PC as part of the routine because it is important, but I think that after this many months, it seems evident that I am not one of those people who can grow with PC alone, either because the PC did not effectively get the androgens low enough or for some other reason. But maybe the way that progesterone-increasing herbs work is very different to how straight-up progesterone supplementation works... that's something I'll have to research.

I'm still not sure that PM is the right thing, but it's time to try it. It can't be more harmful or disruptive than the BC I was prescribed, right? After all, shouldn't mimicking the natural cycle of estrogen help my cycles be more normal? (And that's really just a guess. I don't know as much as I should know about how phytoestrogens work). And speaking of which, my PM spray and caps came today. Right now I'm on day 3 of my cycle (unless I'm just spotting on day 26-28? It's not really 'flowing' if ya know what I mean), so just a few more days until I start!

[Isabelle]

Hi blomst,

Are you sure about your zinc and vitamin B6 doses? Zinc suppresses prolactin above 35 mg, and it becomes an androgen above 80 mg. Recommended dietary allowance is 12 mg, or 13 mg for pregnant women.

Vitamin B6 is a sedative above 10 mg. I took up to 100 mg without problems, but I had to start taking them in the evening because they made me sleepy.

I know zinc and vitamin B6 are the only anti-androgens that are in every multivitamin, and they're the first things you should get right before adding any anti-androgen herbs. But if these doses are really what it takes for you, you might as well try the big guns. I'm thinking saw palmetto, or maybe pygeum bark. The doc may be right too. Some bcp contain cyproterone acetate, a very strong anti-androgen and progestin.

Good luck on your journey

[blomst]

Hi Isabelle, thanks for the input, informative as always I will try cutting my zinc tablets in half, since 60mg does seem like a lot and I don't think it has done any noticeable good with the skin and hair issues. But it is also possible that I am not really getting anything out of the zinc because I tend to take it in the morning, before food, and I've seen it mentioned that zinc needs protein to absorb?

And I have been taking the B6 in the morning - I didn't know about the sedative effect. I'll be taking it with my nighttime magnesium from now on then.

I think that I would rather do saw palmetto or, as you suggested, pygeum bark, before pharmaceuticals, but I'm starting to wonder if it really matters. I mean, the reason I've been avoiding them is that I consider them to be kind of a band-aid and because they'd make things complicated when I want to have kids. But how much difference is there between the herbs and what is given to me by a doctor, in those regards?

I don't know how to fix this problem of high androgens. And nobody else seems to know how either, or is even able to say whether in women, problems with energy regulating hormones causes high androgens, or the other way around. Maybe the cause can't even be gotten rid of, and all I can do is treat the symptoms. I hope that, in the end, I will somehow be able to be free from these health problems without using drugs and HRT, but maybe something like a doctor-prescribed anti-androgen could help me move in that direction? Not having acne and greasy hair all the time, and growing some legit boobs would really help my confidence and happiness, and that would go a long way in improving my health.

[blomst]

And I will post an update on my NBE. I took a capsule on May 4, which was day 5 of my cycle. Then I took 2 caps on days 6-10. And on all of these days, I was using the PM spray. I stopped taking it because I started getting some really mucous-y cervical mucous, so I thought that might mean that ovulation is coming, and I do not want the PM phytoestrogen to suppress ovulation.

I think that the PM spray made my breasts firmer while I was using it. No tingles or anything, but I was only using it for a few days so it's not like I was expecting them. In a couple of days I'm going to start taking the PM again, and this time I will be using it at the same time as PC.

While my acne and greasiness persists though, I wonder about the effectiveness of these. I'll do saw palmetto and up my cod liver and see if anything happens with the acne, and if not I will trade the SP for an anti-androgen. I am so tempted to go back to the dermatologist for Retin-A because it made my skin just gorgeous and was covered by my family's insurance, but it's definitely a band-aid if there ever was one and will prevent me from clearly seeing how hormonal treatments are working.

[Isabelle]

Hi Blomst,

I didn't know zinc needed protein to absorb.

I do agree you could have a first go at it with an anti-androgen bcp. If only for diagnostic purposes: if it helps, you know it's the right direction.

[jiberish]

Zinc toxicity occurs above 30mg a day.

Also 60mg of progesterone :O (I thought 20 was the higher end of dosages)

[blomst]

Alrighty, I took PM days 5-10, then again on days 16 and 17 but stopped because I bled on day 17. It only lasted two days (May 16-17) but it was heavier and more consistent than the sparse bleeding I had from April 30-May 1. I took PM again and I started bleeding again today x_x

So for clarification, what's happened is after four cycles of pretty normal length, the PM seems to have caused mid-cycle bleeding. If I count that bleeding as Day 1 of a new cycle, then the round of PM I took most recently was Days 7-12, and I am bleeding on Day 18. If I don't count it as a new cycle, then that round of PM was on Days 24-28, and I'm bleeding on Day 34.

Since I started taking the PM, I have started getting blemishes in really weird places, like upper abdomen/sides and butt/back of thighs. I was putting the PM spray on my butt as well as my breasts so it's totally likely that that contributed to it, but the spray wouldn't have caused it on my abdomen. Oh, I have also started using Retin-A (0.04%) again because the acne and poor quality of my skin has been kind of unbearable and making my skin look better and having a clear face to look forward to is a huge relief.

I am really skeptical about continuing with PM and considering taking the ortho-tricyclen that I was prescribed last July that's still stashed in my drawer. I am just really uncomfortable with taking it because I expect that I'll probably have to be on it forever and my body will be even more messed up if I ever try to go off it. I probably won't be able to have kids. And I'm scared of the cancer risks. But the way my body looks and the hair loss make me so depressed. I feel like I'm out of options. I don't know what to do and so far the doctors have not been very knowledgeable or interested in my situation.

[blomst]

A week ago I started taking Triphasil which uses ethinylestradiol and levonorgestrel. I don't know much about this drug. I just started taking it because I felt like after a year, I should try the option given to me by the doctor. I don't know about the anti-androgenic effects, I've just heard about ethinylestradiol-containing drugs helping acne.

It's only been a week but already I am really worried about whether I can continue with it. I'm becoming extremely irritable and moody and weepy, like I remember being before using PC. I'm just a mess. And what will make this all so much worse is if, as I expect since I am experiencing negative side effects from the estrogen, I start gaining weight. With this depression-inducing pill the last thing I need is to have more reasons to be depressed.

Just... fml. I can't handle being depressed like this again. Especially once school starts. There are plenty of things I don't like about my life that I need to fix or learn to deal with, but I don't think I would be wanting to hurt and cuss out family members or crying over noises like coughing and clanging dishes if I weren't taking this stuff. Don't know what to do :/