[TibetanPrincess]

Anyway, I'm going to be doing some further research into bovine ovary, but if anyone manages to find a real list of it's constituents or some studies showing how it alters hormone levels, please let me know. I could be wrong, but I think Mel (aka itsjustforfun91) said that she believes that bovine ovary does not raise estrogen, only progesterone. I have no idea on what evidence she based that claim. I could be confusing her with somebody else, so I'm sorry if that's the case. That just goes to show you that there isn't a firm consensus about what bovine ovary actually does. I need a lot more info.

I also wish I knew why BO is commonly taken along with supplements that are meant to support the thyroid. Does it really affect the thyroid? If so why? Are there any actual studies backing up any of these claims?

From the medplex site, it says its safe for hypothyroids (i am one). I don't know if it supports the thyroid but if its true on the progesterone effects of it then yes, it will support the thyroid.

[mochaccino]

Actually I think that some people believe that it either puts a strain on the thyroid or somehow counteracts thyroid hormones. Otherwise, why would they take it along with other supps that are meant for thyroid support? I think people say that you should take it with kelp and or iodine to "raise your temperature", but it seems like the only reason you would take those supps to raise your temperature is if you were developing hypothyroidism. Is that wrong?

Then again, I think the instruction to take kelp came from a particular manufacturer (I don't remember which). I try hard to never assume that supplement manufacturers have any idea what they're talking about unless they give me a really good reason to think otherwise. I'm not one to give them the benefit of the doubt. It could be that the manufacturer has no idea that high estrogen causes lowered temps and so they jumped to the conclusion that the low temps were caused by a thyroid issue. On the other hand, lots of women say that the kelp really does raise their temperature after BO lowers it. Would kelp still raise a persons temp even if that person does not have hypothyroidism? In other words, if kelp raises their temperature, is that proof that the thyroid is underactive or that the hormones it produces are some how being counteracted?

[mochaccino]

I've been looking over the japanese NBE blogs, of which there are a ton:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...om/bustup/

So far it seems that every last one of these women (and I do mean every single program that I've personally seen) involves PM and pig placenta. They seem to think that this combo is absolutely essential. Other things vary, but never those two core supplements.

What's also interesting is that horse placenta seems to be much more popular in Japan than pig placenta (based on what I've seen on Rakuten), and yet none of these women are using horse placenta for NBE. They all seem to prefer pig placenta, especially a supplement called Whitex.

Typically they also take a mixed herbal supplement in luteal phase that contains a small amount of PM. Technically that means that they take oral PM all cycle, but in a much lower dose during luteal phase. By far the most popular supplement for this purpose is "Glamour". Glamour contains PM, black cohosh, chasteberry, white pepper, turmeric, dandelion, basil, and something called "tree yam". The second most popular luteal supplement is Bust-up drops, but it still doesn't come anywhere near Glamour in terms of popularity.

It's worth pointing out that every blogger that I've seen so far, except one, is using Ladies 99% Pueraria as their follicular PM supplement. That's all the more amazing considering how expensive it is. The one woman I've seen that isn't using "Ladies" is using "Mature" brand PM instead. Both brands appear to be extracts and claim to be "99%", although I'm not sure what that means. 99% what? 99% pure? Ladies Pueraria has around 800 ratings on Rakuten and an average of 4 out of 5 stars, which is really stunning, especially considering that most of the other PM brands don't even have any reviews at all. Unfortunately Ladies PM is EXTREMELY expensive so I decided to use Suplife 99 PM which also seems to be an extract and claims to be 99% something-or-other

Almost every one of these girls was also using a collagen supplement called "Puruoi", but I'm not sure collagen supps are really all that necessary when you eat as much animal protein as I do. I eat tons of meat, eggs, etc. even when I'm not actively trying to, so I don't think I'll be buying Puruoi any time soon.

Overall, I think the degree of similarity between all their programs is absolutely incredible, and what's even more incredible is the success rate of their programs. I don't think that the success rate of the programs on this board comes anywhere close to theirs, as much as I wish that weren't true. Even if you limit the scope to just PM programs, these girls are mercilessly beating our collective butt, assuming all their success stories are true. I think you can see what I've decided to imitate their programs next cycle after taking my hormone test. The only reason I would change their basic program is if the test says that I have excess estrogen or testosterone. I seriously doubt that I have excess estrogen, but I guess it's possible. If I have excess testosterone I'll probably just add some mint tea to the program. If I have excess estrogen, I'm pretty much screwed. The obvious choice in that case would be to use progesterone, but PC hasn't done much for me thus far except give me symptoms of toxicity, so I have no idea what I'll do if that's the case.

Here's the program I intend on following unless my hormone test results tell me otherwise:

Days 5-15:
Suplife 99 PM- dose on bottle

Days 16-28:
Glamour- 2 tabs/day

All cycle-
Maruman pig placenta- 3 tabs/day

I'm really hanging my hopes on this after a year of no results on other programs, so I really hope those girls weren't lying or exaggerating, and it works well for me

[AbiDrew85]

That pig placenta idea seems interesting... I don't think I'd change my PM brand, but I might try that out. I'm considering not getting any more BO in the future, and pig placenta ought to fit right in there price wise.

[Helena St]

I'm excited to see if this works for you!

I would love try the ladies pureria, but that would be so expensive if it didnt end up working.

[mochaccino]

It's gonna feel so weird to not do any NBE for the next 5 or 6 weeks. This current cycle hasn't finished yet and is probably going to be VERY long. After that I have to wait through what will hopefully be a normal 4 week cycle so that I can test my hormones, and maybe also give myself a blank slate for my new program. I've already been off all supplements for over a week. I might mess around with the noogle just so that I don't feel like I'm slacking, but I should probably give up on that thing already

[mochaccino]

In other news, I've completely changed my mind about the right way to find my own unique dose of PM. When I say "dose" I don't just mean daily dose, but also monthly dose, because you have to decide not only how many to take per day but how many days to take it. Obviously this is a huge source of confusion for a lot of people on this board, including me.

Looking over the Japanese blogs, it has become obvious to me that they all actively avoid allowing their cycles to lengthen. It seems that quite a few of them manage to keep an exact 28 day cycle. When I start my new program, I'm going to ramp up very slowly, and lower my monthly dose if my cycle lengthens. I'll also be doing BBT to make sure I stop my PM a day or 2 before ovulation like Chiyo.

Louloute pointed out that at least one Japanese woman managed to get a massive amount of growth from a very small monthly amount of PM and Glamour (a mixed herbal supp which also contains some PM). I think she calls herself Miyusakimilk. She claims to have gone from roughly AA to a Japanese H cup in about 11 months. A Japanese H cup is equivalent to a US E cup. She doesn't actually say what her starting size was, or at least I wasn't able to find it among all the nonsense spat out by Google translate, so I had to make a guess at her starting size based on pictures. Assuming that I'm right about her starting size, that means that she grew at least 6 US cup sizes in 11 months. I admit that it's very hard to believe. In the past, people on this board and other, now defunct, BE boards have lied or exaggerated to just as amazing a degree, so it's entirely possible that she's lying. In her case she might even actually have a good reason, like money or free supplements. Of course I have no way of knowing if that's the case, so for the time being, I'm making a conscious decision to believe her.

I've changed my mind about the program I wrote a few posts above this one, which is very similar to Chiyomilk's program. I'm going to start out by using Miyusakimilk's unusual dose schedule instead. Somehow I doubt that it will be enough PM for me, but I have to start out at a low dose anyway, so I'll give it a try. Here's what I'll probably be doing:

Menstruation:
Glamour 1 tab/day

Day 5-12:
Suplife 99 Pm 1 tab/day

All cycle:
Maruman pig placenta extract 1 tab/day
Robust PM cream 1x/day (unless and until I can afford "Ladies" cream)

Maruman actually recommends that you take 4 tabs a day, which contains 500 mg of placenta extract. That's the same amount of Maruman that Ginie took and grew so well on, but Whitex, which most of the Japanese bloggers used, contains only 138 grams of placenta extract per daily dose. Then again, Ginie "only" grew 2 cup sizes in 6 months. Not that it's entirely fair to compare her to Miyusakimilk, especially since I still have so many doubts about Miyusaki. Also, the speed of Miyusakimilk's growth might be due to higher quality PM. I guess I'll start out at 125 mg placenta extract (1 Maruman tab) a day, and ramp up only if necessary.

[EdithHooters97]

This is really fascinating to me. I'm excited to see what the upcoming program does for you. I just started PM, and am also rather confused as to exactly when to start and stop taking it, etc.
Good luck on the hormone test as well.

[Doll]

Everyone seems to be starting PM at the same time, and none of us really know the best way to go about it! Lol

I really hope you get some good growth when you start this program! I really am amazed at some of the growth these women are seeing! It really is hard to believe, but at the same time, it IS still possible (it's just harder to believe with such a high rate of success!)

I think we also have to consider the Japanese/Asian diet compared to the American diet. This may be part of the reason why their breasts are smaller to begin with, as well as part of the reason the respond so well to this program. Still, the success rate is too high to not at least give it a try! So good luck!

[Louloute]

In other news, I've completely changed my mind about the right way to find my own unique dose of PM. When I say "dose" I don't just mean daily dose, but also monthly dose, because you have to decide not only how many to take per day but how many days to take it. Obviously this is a huge source of confusion for a lot of people on this board, including me.

Looking over the Japanese blogs, it has become obvious to me that they all actively avoid allowing their cycles to lengthen. It seems that quite a few of them manage to keep an exact 28 day cycle. When I start my new program, I'm going to ramp up very slowly, and lower my monthly dose if my cycle lengthens. I'll also be doing BBT to make sure I stop my PM a day or 2 before ovulation like Chiyo.

Louloute pointed out that at least one Japanese woman managed to get a massive amount of growth from a very small monthly amount of PM and Glamour (a mixed herbal supp which also contains some PM). I think she calls herself Miyusakimilk. She claims to have gone from roughly AA to a Japanese H cup in about 11 months. A Japanese H cup is equivalent to a US E cup. She doesn't actually say what her starting size was, or at least I wasn't able to find it among all the nonsense spat out by Google translate, so I had to make a guess at her starting size based on pictures. Assuming that I'm right about her starting size, that means that she grew at least 6 US cup sizes in 11 months. I admit that it's very hard to believe. In the past, people on this board and other, now defunct, BE boards have lied or exaggerated to just as amazing a degree, so it's entirely possible that she's lying. In her case she might even actually have a good reason, like money or free supplements. Of course I have no way of knowing if that's the case, so for the time being, I'm making a conscious decision to believe her.

I've changed my mind about the program I wrote a few posts above this one, which is very similar to Chiyomilk's program. I'm going to start out by using Miyusakimilk's unusual dose schedule instead. Somehow I doubt that it will be enough PM for me, but I have to start out at a low dose anyway, so I'll give it a try. Here's what I'll probably be doing:

Menstruation:
Glamour 1 tab/day

Day 5-12:
Suplife 99 Pm 1 tab/day

All cycle:
Maruman pig placenta extract 1 tab/day
Robust PM cream 1x/day (unless and until I can afford "Ladies" cream)

Maruman actually recommends that you take 4 tabs a day, which contains 500 mg of placenta extract. That's the same amount of Maruman that Ginie took and grew so well on, but Whitex, which most of the Japanese bloggers used, contains only 138 grams of placenta extract per daily dose. Then again, Ginie "only" grew 2 cup sizes in 6 months. Not that it's entirely fair to compare her to Miyusakimilk, especially since I still have so many doubts about Miyusaki. Also, the speed of Miyusakimilk's growth might be due to higher quality PM. I guess I'll start out at 125 mg placenta extract (1 Maruman tab) a day, and ramp up only if necessary.

Im so excited about this! our programs are going to be almost identical! i might up my dosage just a bit more, add collagen, HA pills and continue with MSM. I think you're right to change Glamour to menstruation days. even Chiyomilk was taking it b4 ovulation because it is quite strong. as for weaker phytos in the luteal... i think the PM cream would be adequate. I ordered Robust today too, and also the serum. Ginie used the serum to noogle with cos it was like an oil. i will start in about 2 weeks when AF comes...hopefully by that time the rest of my supps will have arrive. good luck mocha!