24-12-2011, 12:08
Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM
September 29 2009 at 12:06 PM tiran1 (Login Tiran1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hello Jane!
Thank you for your information!!! Please advice on the optimal safe dosage for PM!!!!
I've seen that Solgar has PM 2x80 mg/ day dose...however they market it for menopause.
I also had a left over bottle of St Herb and to strech it i took 1/morning and 1/eve = 400mg/day and I felt as if my breast looked fuller a bit...then I went on and bought Ainterol which advices 1000mg/day....
I am really worried as to what is the right dosage...all this companies (non of which are actually world players) have different guidance that could be picked up randomly! I also know that hormonal balance is a very fragile issue and more isn't always good. Most often otherwise!And as many complaint that they had delays, it point out on disbalance in my opinion, and ther is nothing healthy about it.
So Jane, please share your opinion on the right dosage. I and many other people will appreciate it I believe...
Also, did I get it right that your are endocrinologist????
Another thing, when you said about topicals...is it OK to open capsule and just mix the content into some base mix??
Last one ))) can Erdic be effective???
Sorry for that many questions!!! And thank you in advance
Author Reply
my2cents
(no login) Re: Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM September 30 2009, 3:35 AM
Erdic has been discussed ad nauseam in the main forum. It is a crappy product and widely known for disappointing customers. Try the search function if you're researching about particular brands.
As for PM dosages and commercial brands, I would also appreciate your opinion, Jane. Can you share your knowledge about St. Herb vs. Ro-bust vs. Ainterol vs. Pueraria UK, etc? You have a no-nonsense approach that does not cater to companies. Thank you very much for your input.
jane
(no login) Re: Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM September 30 2009, 4:18 PM
I can comment on Solgar. I spoke with them a while back. They are not too swift. I am not impressed with them. They are buying a wild extrsct from one of the large mfg who are claimimg that they standardized the isoflavones and miroestrol. Thai scientists are laughing at them. This is nonsense. The numbers they are quoting....well there is no reason to believe them. They are using a method called TLC. The long and short of
it this is just a guess. These numbers are good enough for Solgar...they do not care but happy to put it on their label. This would give more value to the product if it were true. To validate this type of measuring method you need pure miroestrol. That's the sticking point. There are only a few people in the world that have it as well as deoymiroestrol and kwakhurin. The American supplement industry is not sophisticated enough to isolate it from Pueraria Mirifica...its an academic pursuit.
Recent studies (validated) show that deoymiroestrol is as important as miroestrol in high quality PM. There is an isoflavone that is very abundant in Pueraria Mirifica called Kwakhurin. No one in the US can measure it. So how did we come up with the standardization numbers for isoflavones. I'm sure there is other isoflavones in PM they can not measure.....but they all claiming a standardization number. Says a whole lot about the supplement industry! This is a false advertsing claim as far as I am concerned. Who is there to call them on it?
For dosing be conservative. Start out out lowers leveLs for the first several months. 100mg to 200mg with quality material is fine 15 days/month for pre-menopausal women. I have seen medical studies in Thailand using
50 mg all month for pre-menopausal.
For post-menopausal you should be able to use a little more....100 to 200 mg of a quality material all month.
If you are using wild you never really know what you have got....I do not know if I would go above 300mg/day.
Anterol is inexpensive....so therefore wild. 1000mg is too much......unless it is absolute junk. I have never used it.
There are a lot of extraneous factors that go into wild. How old the plant is, it is usually found in remote areas....it needs to be dessicated in 3 days time or it starts to degrade. There are about 14 specis of pueraria candolei. There are 2 flowering species of pueraria candolei....one of these species is PM.
The roots of all these plants look the same. When you have villagers bringing these large roots in I always questions what they are actually providing the mfg and if the consumer is getting a diluted product.
I was contacted by a group in Burma where there is alot wild material. Of course they want to sell to a mfg. I brought this to our people as an option as a "B" material for a consumer or supplement mfg that wanted to make
a loweer end product. The main sticking points were the dessication issues and specis validation.
The only true standard you can get with PM is a farmed standard. Monkeying around with fancy equiptment to standaize molecules in a plant with such a complex dynamic is once again putting profits first. There are ant-mutagenic compounds in the plant...until you can measure at least 20 to 50 compounds in the plant....well leave it alone. I will not be their guinea pig.
The problem with taking capsules apart......99 per cent of the time there are fillers inside. If it is root powder it will feel graining because there is cellulose in the powder. It is really hard because it is trial and error if it is an extract how much to use. You may be wasting perfectl;y good capsules.
best jn
Tiran1
(Login Tiran1) solgar October 2 2009, 2:12 PM
THAN YOU JANE FOR YOUR ANSWER!!!!!!!!
I am new here so i don't know the rules...but could you please name a brand you think is the better one in the market...so i can buy sth that does work...as I beleive it is not a question of whether PM work but are all those brands selling in internet trustworthy!!!
Also strange that Aintenol states in website that their PM is farm-produced...But again this days you can state whatever you like in intenet...
May be this can be interesting...nothing new though...
Below is the message solgar's herbalist sent me
Hi
Thankyou for your recent enquiry regarding the PM Phytogen Complex. In relation to the strength our product is an extract of the herb whereas others you may be looking at will be the whole herb which is why they are found at a higher level.
The product tends to be used by people looking for support during the menopause and whilst some people report an increase in breast size im afraid we do not recommend the product for this or have any guidelines on dosaging to achieve this effect. I have attached some literature which does refer to a study that was done in relation to breast size. The dosage we recommend for the product is 2 a day. Please note the product is not suitable if you are taking the contraceptive pill or are on HRT.
The doc he sent me was an inteview with recearcher on PM mostly in regards to cancer and menopause and anti agying. However there was this bit about size matters...there was study done by prof kuramashi and smotasiri: 72% women responded with significant breast enlargement. However there was nothing about the dose....
jane
(no login) Re: Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM October 3 2009, 4:14 AM
I have a vested interest so there is a conflict recommending on a product. I do not know anything about Anterol. You can answer your own question here. Pm should be farmed 5 to 10 years to be high quality.
Having a PHD in biology selecting the rights plants requires years of study.
Common sense should tell you that you can not produce a raw material that cheap. I understand Anterol is very
inexpensive.........so what is your answer.
As for Solgar. I believe they sent you Japanese studies in which they did not use the
same raw material(i could be mistaken) but I do know SOLGAR'S MATERIAL came from Smith Naturals in Thailand to a
company in the US called Bio-botanica(who tried to soup it up) then sold to Solgar.
The reason they may discuss breast enhancement in s menopause paper that this as a side effect because it makes
a great biological statement about pueraria mirifica and its estogenic efficacy.
Unfortunately the women that seek enhancement the most are less inclined to have an easy time getting it
whatever the reason.
What many people in this forum fail to understand is that very , very strong estrogenic molecules are mamogenic,
Miroestrol is known and proven to be mamogenic in gruesome animal studies. Its precursor deoxymiroestrol has
even more activity...a lot more and no doubt is mamogenic. The science has not been done because its too hard
to extract and too hard to synthesize. No other plant estrogens have been proven mamogenic....why? they are
very weak or just traces of them exist in the plant. Hence the plant is not mamogenic.
The best quality Pueraria Mirifica coming out of Thailand is unquestionably the farmed cultivars developed by a
leading THAI scientist. You can buy them on the internet for about 20 to 30.00 US.
At the farm location they have special equiptment to dessicate the PM directly after harvesting. It
takes about 8 hours for 1 root. Now you weight this against bringing it from a remote location to a factory or
drying the plant in the sun. Which method is going to preserve the actives better? It may take a week
depending on weather to sun-dry or several days to even get it to the city. Rembember after 3 days the actives
start to degrade.
The age and size of the root has a standard, the genetics very similar, and it is pueraria mirifica,
Regarding wild the age and size are more variable along with plant's genetics.......Once again are they bringing
the root from the correct specias or is it Pueraria candolei.......where the root looks identical?
Tiran1
(Login Tiran1) Thank you Jane October 4 2009, 5:28 PM
Thank you Jane for your answer!
I understand your concerns of recommending products here. May be you could e-mail me on inovozhilova@yahoo.co.uk ???
I looked up in internet...there are hundreds of brands for PM...most on cheaper side...
From expensive are ST Herb and Full Potential...
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE???
Also you mentioned Smith Naturals...are they good??? they have this brand partners Puresterol, Longevity Plus and Biobatanica ????
I am very sorry that I keep asking you all these questions!!! )))) The thing is that this companies don't state that specific criterias you advice paying attention when choosing a right product...most of the time I have a feeling that they copy the same text from web site to a website...even pictures sometimes are the same (((
Thank you in advance!!!
Tiran1
(Login Tiran1) dosage of PM October 5 2009, 10:31 AM
This is an answer from Mirifem that goes in line with what Jane said regarding the dose and farmed vs wild PM...
Thank you for your interest in our products.
The Pueraria mirifica we used are wild harvested and then further processed
into an extract. This is followed up by a lab test to ensure the extract is
safe and contains a good amount of active compounds so that it will be
effective. We have done this since 2006.
In the past, we were using just dried Pueraria mirifica (powdered) and we
notice that customer's results vary because the active compounds present
changes with different harvesting seasons. There are also some harvesters
that mix in other type of Pueraria that resembles Pueraria mirifica(PM) but
simply do not contain any of the active compounds that PM have.
Each of our Caplet contains 50mg of PM. Our dosage of 50-100mg daily
conforms to that of studies done by several Thai Universities. In a
nutshell, when the correct species of PM is used, 50-100mg daily is
effective and safe. (excessive usage could cause side effects like
headaches/dizziness probably related to hormonal imbalance)
September 29 2009 at 12:06 PM tiran1 (Login Tiran1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hello Jane!
Thank you for your information!!! Please advice on the optimal safe dosage for PM!!!!
I've seen that Solgar has PM 2x80 mg/ day dose...however they market it for menopause.
I also had a left over bottle of St Herb and to strech it i took 1/morning and 1/eve = 400mg/day and I felt as if my breast looked fuller a bit...then I went on and bought Ainterol which advices 1000mg/day....
I am really worried as to what is the right dosage...all this companies (non of which are actually world players) have different guidance that could be picked up randomly! I also know that hormonal balance is a very fragile issue and more isn't always good. Most often otherwise!And as many complaint that they had delays, it point out on disbalance in my opinion, and ther is nothing healthy about it.
So Jane, please share your opinion on the right dosage. I and many other people will appreciate it I believe...
Also, did I get it right that your are endocrinologist????
Another thing, when you said about topicals...is it OK to open capsule and just mix the content into some base mix??
Last one ))) can Erdic be effective???
Sorry for that many questions!!! And thank you in advance
Author Reply
my2cents
(no login) Re: Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM September 30 2009, 3:35 AM
Erdic has been discussed ad nauseam in the main forum. It is a crappy product and widely known for disappointing customers. Try the search function if you're researching about particular brands.
As for PM dosages and commercial brands, I would also appreciate your opinion, Jane. Can you share your knowledge about St. Herb vs. Ro-bust vs. Ainterol vs. Pueraria UK, etc? You have a no-nonsense approach that does not cater to companies. Thank you very much for your input.
jane
(no login) Re: Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM September 30 2009, 4:18 PM
I can comment on Solgar. I spoke with them a while back. They are not too swift. I am not impressed with them. They are buying a wild extrsct from one of the large mfg who are claimimg that they standardized the isoflavones and miroestrol. Thai scientists are laughing at them. This is nonsense. The numbers they are quoting....well there is no reason to believe them. They are using a method called TLC. The long and short of
it this is just a guess. These numbers are good enough for Solgar...they do not care but happy to put it on their label. This would give more value to the product if it were true. To validate this type of measuring method you need pure miroestrol. That's the sticking point. There are only a few people in the world that have it as well as deoymiroestrol and kwakhurin. The American supplement industry is not sophisticated enough to isolate it from Pueraria Mirifica...its an academic pursuit.
Recent studies (validated) show that deoymiroestrol is as important as miroestrol in high quality PM. There is an isoflavone that is very abundant in Pueraria Mirifica called Kwakhurin. No one in the US can measure it. So how did we come up with the standardization numbers for isoflavones. I'm sure there is other isoflavones in PM they can not measure.....but they all claiming a standardization number. Says a whole lot about the supplement industry! This is a false advertsing claim as far as I am concerned. Who is there to call them on it?
For dosing be conservative. Start out out lowers leveLs for the first several months. 100mg to 200mg with quality material is fine 15 days/month for pre-menopausal women. I have seen medical studies in Thailand using
50 mg all month for pre-menopausal.
For post-menopausal you should be able to use a little more....100 to 200 mg of a quality material all month.
If you are using wild you never really know what you have got....I do not know if I would go above 300mg/day.
Anterol is inexpensive....so therefore wild. 1000mg is too much......unless it is absolute junk. I have never used it.
There are a lot of extraneous factors that go into wild. How old the plant is, it is usually found in remote areas....it needs to be dessicated in 3 days time or it starts to degrade. There are about 14 specis of pueraria candolei. There are 2 flowering species of pueraria candolei....one of these species is PM.
The roots of all these plants look the same. When you have villagers bringing these large roots in I always questions what they are actually providing the mfg and if the consumer is getting a diluted product.
I was contacted by a group in Burma where there is alot wild material. Of course they want to sell to a mfg. I brought this to our people as an option as a "B" material for a consumer or supplement mfg that wanted to make
a loweer end product. The main sticking points were the dessication issues and specis validation.
The only true standard you can get with PM is a farmed standard. Monkeying around with fancy equiptment to standaize molecules in a plant with such a complex dynamic is once again putting profits first. There are ant-mutagenic compounds in the plant...until you can measure at least 20 to 50 compounds in the plant....well leave it alone. I will not be their guinea pig.
The problem with taking capsules apart......99 per cent of the time there are fillers inside. If it is root powder it will feel graining because there is cellulose in the powder. It is really hard because it is trial and error if it is an extract how much to use. You may be wasting perfectl;y good capsules.
best jn
Tiran1
(Login Tiran1) solgar October 2 2009, 2:12 PM
THAN YOU JANE FOR YOUR ANSWER!!!!!!!!
I am new here so i don't know the rules...but could you please name a brand you think is the better one in the market...so i can buy sth that does work...as I beleive it is not a question of whether PM work but are all those brands selling in internet trustworthy!!!
Also strange that Aintenol states in website that their PM is farm-produced...But again this days you can state whatever you like in intenet...
May be this can be interesting...nothing new though...
Below is the message solgar's herbalist sent me
Hi
Thankyou for your recent enquiry regarding the PM Phytogen Complex. In relation to the strength our product is an extract of the herb whereas others you may be looking at will be the whole herb which is why they are found at a higher level.
The product tends to be used by people looking for support during the menopause and whilst some people report an increase in breast size im afraid we do not recommend the product for this or have any guidelines on dosaging to achieve this effect. I have attached some literature which does refer to a study that was done in relation to breast size. The dosage we recommend for the product is 2 a day. Please note the product is not suitable if you are taking the contraceptive pill or are on HRT.
The doc he sent me was an inteview with recearcher on PM mostly in regards to cancer and menopause and anti agying. However there was this bit about size matters...there was study done by prof kuramashi and smotasiri: 72% women responded with significant breast enlargement. However there was nothing about the dose....
jane
(no login) Re: Jane please A RIGHT DOSAGE of PM October 3 2009, 4:14 AM
I have a vested interest so there is a conflict recommending on a product. I do not know anything about Anterol. You can answer your own question here. Pm should be farmed 5 to 10 years to be high quality.
Having a PHD in biology selecting the rights plants requires years of study.
Common sense should tell you that you can not produce a raw material that cheap. I understand Anterol is very
inexpensive.........so what is your answer.
As for Solgar. I believe they sent you Japanese studies in which they did not use the
same raw material(i could be mistaken) but I do know SOLGAR'S MATERIAL came from Smith Naturals in Thailand to a
company in the US called Bio-botanica(who tried to soup it up) then sold to Solgar.
The reason they may discuss breast enhancement in s menopause paper that this as a side effect because it makes
a great biological statement about pueraria mirifica and its estogenic efficacy.
Unfortunately the women that seek enhancement the most are less inclined to have an easy time getting it
whatever the reason.
What many people in this forum fail to understand is that very , very strong estrogenic molecules are mamogenic,
Miroestrol is known and proven to be mamogenic in gruesome animal studies. Its precursor deoxymiroestrol has
even more activity...a lot more and no doubt is mamogenic. The science has not been done because its too hard
to extract and too hard to synthesize. No other plant estrogens have been proven mamogenic....why? they are
very weak or just traces of them exist in the plant. Hence the plant is not mamogenic.
The best quality Pueraria Mirifica coming out of Thailand is unquestionably the farmed cultivars developed by a
leading THAI scientist. You can buy them on the internet for about 20 to 30.00 US.
At the farm location they have special equiptment to dessicate the PM directly after harvesting. It
takes about 8 hours for 1 root. Now you weight this against bringing it from a remote location to a factory or
drying the plant in the sun. Which method is going to preserve the actives better? It may take a week
depending on weather to sun-dry or several days to even get it to the city. Rembember after 3 days the actives
start to degrade.
The age and size of the root has a standard, the genetics very similar, and it is pueraria mirifica,
Regarding wild the age and size are more variable along with plant's genetics.......Once again are they bringing
the root from the correct specias or is it Pueraria candolei.......where the root looks identical?
Tiran1
(Login Tiran1) Thank you Jane October 4 2009, 5:28 PM
Thank you Jane for your answer!
I understand your concerns of recommending products here. May be you could e-mail me on inovozhilova@yahoo.co.uk ???
I looked up in internet...there are hundreds of brands for PM...most on cheaper side...
From expensive are ST Herb and Full Potential...
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE???
Also you mentioned Smith Naturals...are they good??? they have this brand partners Puresterol, Longevity Plus and Biobatanica ????
I am very sorry that I keep asking you all these questions!!! )))) The thing is that this companies don't state that specific criterias you advice paying attention when choosing a right product...most of the time I have a feeling that they copy the same text from web site to a website...even pictures sometimes are the same (((
Thank you in advance!!!
Tiran1
(Login Tiran1) dosage of PM October 5 2009, 10:31 AM
This is an answer from Mirifem that goes in line with what Jane said regarding the dose and farmed vs wild PM...
Thank you for your interest in our products.
The Pueraria mirifica we used are wild harvested and then further processed
into an extract. This is followed up by a lab test to ensure the extract is
safe and contains a good amount of active compounds so that it will be
effective. We have done this since 2006.
In the past, we were using just dried Pueraria mirifica (powdered) and we
notice that customer's results vary because the active compounds present
changes with different harvesting seasons. There are also some harvesters
that mix in other type of Pueraria that resembles Pueraria mirifica(PM) but
simply do not contain any of the active compounds that PM have.
Each of our Caplet contains 50mg of PM. Our dosage of 50-100mg daily
conforms to that of studies done by several Thai Universities. In a
nutshell, when the correct species of PM is used, 50-100mg daily is
effective and safe. (excessive usage could cause side effects like
headaches/dizziness probably related to hormonal imbalance)