05-03-2016, 00:28
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008 at 4:28 PM Honeydew (Login honeydew71)
SENIOR MEMBER
Last month I was tingly, sore, and the girls felt very full and like they were growing (I'm a AA or AAA, big whoop! haha). I've seen where people mention stalling, but I've not been able to find out what to do if you think you are. I've not felt any tingling or soreness for about 3 weeks, and it seems like my boobies are shrinking. I know you're supposed to get fuller around luteal phase, (my period should be here in about 2 weeks.. maybe less) but I've not noticed any fullness.
Also, when is the time to take a break from the herbs? During period? A week after?
If any of you have time and energy, would you take a look at my PP and see if I'm doing anything wrong, or if you can suggest something to add to my program to kick start it again?
Either that, or tell me to not be so impatient! I'm feeling a bit discouraged.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 5:14 PM
Hello Honeydew,
On shrinking at the beginning of your program: That's the way it is sometimes, do not stop what you are doing. In the next month you will probably get it back and then it will continue. My wife lost one inch in her first month and then grew three inches after that for a net gain of two. You have to look at the herbs as "making a difference" since if they were doing nothing, then there would be no difference.
On Saw Palmetto: Yep, it does make some women gain weight and judging by your program, your initial growth appears to have been partially back fat. You did the right thing, but you still need a DHT component. Adding nettle root and pumpkin seed oil would be a good idea.
On flax: Flax seed oil is good for general health. Ground flax seed is not good for BE. The ligands are aromatase inhibitors. Their presence is not significant in the oil but in ground flax seed it is.
On stalling, which I think you are, based on your size and high dosages: It would be typical to see what you saw in the first weeks of your program when on high dosages, which is a lot of activity at first and then nothing. The test for stalling is to stop everything you are doing and count the days until you start feeling growing pains (if you do). If you do not feel growing pains within one week then you were not stalled. If you do, then you will want to know the number of days that passed until you start feeling growing pains again. The higher the number, the greater you were stalled. You can then adjust your dosages accordingly. A method that I think would work good for the AA-AAA range is to stall on purpose, then destall, counting the days back, and then ramping up again with your best guess and starting the process all over again. This is cycling. That way, you do get some growth while determining your dosages. But you have to be very in tune with your body so that as soon as you stall (like within a day or two) shut it off and continue titration. Another way, perhaps less like a yo-yo, is to ramp up very slowly, like 500mg of estrogenic herb(s) per week.
Wahaika
Honeydew
(Login honeydew71)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 5:48 PM
Thank you so much Wahaika! I appreciate your input and now I'm going to pick your brain for a minute, if that's okay.
Do you suggest that I go ahead and stop everything I'm doing right now? Or should I continue until the end of my period (approx. 2 1/2 weeks from now) then stop? I'm afraid that if I stop taking my herbs now, that I will lose any potential growth (even though I'm not seeing any right now. I'm hoping it will start soon.... false hope?)
I'll definitely look into getting some pumpkin seed oil or some nettle root. Thank you for the suggestions. By the way, I am taking Flaxseed oil. I'm not taking the seeds. I suppose I should have put that on there!
This message has been edited by honeydew71 on Apr 8, 2008 5:51 PM
jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 9:43 PM
What, I thought ground flax seeds were good for NBE Wahaika!?
Well obviously not good if they weren't ground because then it would just go straight to your bum and not even digest.
So you are saying it's bad for growth? There is far too many posts on here that say otherwise though.
Mango84
(Login Mango84)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 10:52 PM
There are ALOT of posts that give inaccurate information. Accuracy is not measured by "majority." One person states something, and then it gets repeated often as fact, when alot of times it is not fact. I'm sure Wahaika will explain the scientifics behind why the lignans are not good...well...actually he already did...but he might expound on it. (Might you Wahaika?
) In the meantime, I'm sure Googling lignans, aromatase, testosterone, and estrogen would give some info. 
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 6:39 AM
Honeydew,
Stop now if you think you're stalled. The sooner you deal with it the better. You can always restart. And no, it's not a false hope, sometimes it takes a while to see results and one is not stalled at all. Your judgement call though.
Wahaika
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 6:41 AM
Jackie,
>>"There is far too many posts on here that say otherwise though."
Interesting. Can you point me to any?
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 6:49 AM
Mango84,
Here are some searches to show that flax seed ligands are aromatase inhibitors:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=flax+seed+ligands+%2Baromatase&btnG=Search
At a certain temperature (98.6 if memory serves) aromatase binds with testosterone to create estrogen. This is one of the momentum effects that BE'ers would like to have working in their favor. So, aromatase inhibitors would cancel this effect.
Another thing to keep free is testosterone. This is why Saw Palmetto, Pumpkin Seed Oil, and Nettle root are so good. They keep testosterone from converting into DHT and therefore free to bind with other things like aromatase. Wild Oats extract (Avena Sativa) is another good thing to take. It binds with SHBG therefore keeping it from binding to free steroid hormones such as testosterone.
Wahaika
jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 1:12 PM
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1203872191/Flaxseed+%26amp%3B+EPO
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1172517275/flaxseed+oil+question%21
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1186024428/anyone+using+flaxseed+4+nbe---does+it+work--+results--
...Just some examples.
You can just go to the search on here and type in flaxseed and theres a lot of people who have used it and had good results. There has been a lot of research on it really.
Honeydew
(Login honeydew71)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 1:41 PM
Wahaika,
Thanks so much for following up. I've decided to stop taking the herbs for a week to see if I have in fact stalled. Another couple questions if you don't mind. Should I continue to take the VitC, or any of the oils and just stop the herbs? Also, would now be a good time for me to take some Milk Thistle to cleanse? Also, you metioned avena sativa. Do I take it instead of the pumpkin seed oil/or nettle root? Or do I take it including one of those two?
I know it's a pain to answer all this, but this is just my second month of NBE, and I don't know this stuff yet.
Also, I'm assuming it's okay to continue massage.... right? (Ok, that's all. haha)
This message has been edited by honeydew71 on Apr 9, 2008 1:42 PM
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 2:23 PM
Note about crushed flax seed:
It is a very low dose phytoestrogen. It is quite useful for estrogen dominance because it will bind to estrogen receptors and prevent stronger estrogen agents from binding.
This would likely make crushed flaxseed a problem for NBE if the woman's approach is to use phytoestrogens for growth.
Now here comes the confusing part:
A woman who is highly estrogen dominant is unlikely to have much luck with NBE because of the high estrogen causing problems with thyroid. Hypothyroid (low thyroid) symptoms are very much akin to estrogen dominance symptoms.
Proper thyroid function is essential for NBE. Those who attempt to grow without correcting the thyroid imbalance are often thwarted. Many of the 'packaged' NBE supplements allude to this.
-----------------------------------------------------
Here is my theory:
Most phytoestrogens are slightly lower in their effect than our natural estrogen. For women with normal estrogen who just don't create enough estrogen, the use of phytoestrogens will fill up more receptors and thus give a net effect of increasing total estrogen for the body. (sure the phytoestrogen that is hitting the receptors is lower than natural estrogen, but there is so much of it the total effect is greater) These women respond quickly to NBE and do not stall easily.
For women with slight estrogen dominance (meaning they have normal amounts of estrogen but do not have enough progesterone to balance what estrogen they have) the use of phytoestrogens would actually lower the total estrogen, which would allow what progesterone they have to 'balance' better and the net effect would be NBE. I think this group of women are more likely to stall when using phytoestrogens (too much phytoestrogen would increase the total estrogen and thus create the imbalance between estrogen and progesterone again).
For women with strong estrogen dominance (very low progesterone and probable low estrogen) the use of phytoestrogens will increase the total estrogen and also increase estrogen dominance symptoms. This where crushed flaxseed can be very helpful. It will lower total body estrogen and help with progesterone balance - which will lower hypothyroid symptoms and make NBE possible.
----------------------------------------------------------
So -once again it all boils down to who you are. For some crushed flaxseed will hinder NBE. For some it will help.
By the way -women with strong estrogen dominance who must take crushed flaxseed to combat it may achieve NBE through increasing progesterone, massage and the use of galactogouges when the estrogen dominance is more under control. At least this is the theory I am testing out.
Hope this theory of mine has helped more than it has confused,
waxingmoon
April 8 2008 at 4:28 PM Honeydew (Login honeydew71)
SENIOR MEMBER
Last month I was tingly, sore, and the girls felt very full and like they were growing (I'm a AA or AAA, big whoop! haha). I've seen where people mention stalling, but I've not been able to find out what to do if you think you are. I've not felt any tingling or soreness for about 3 weeks, and it seems like my boobies are shrinking. I know you're supposed to get fuller around luteal phase, (my period should be here in about 2 weeks.. maybe less) but I've not noticed any fullness.
Also, when is the time to take a break from the herbs? During period? A week after?
If any of you have time and energy, would you take a look at my PP and see if I'm doing anything wrong, or if you can suggest something to add to my program to kick start it again?
Either that, or tell me to not be so impatient! I'm feeling a bit discouraged.
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 5:14 PM
Hello Honeydew,
On shrinking at the beginning of your program: That's the way it is sometimes, do not stop what you are doing. In the next month you will probably get it back and then it will continue. My wife lost one inch in her first month and then grew three inches after that for a net gain of two. You have to look at the herbs as "making a difference" since if they were doing nothing, then there would be no difference.
On Saw Palmetto: Yep, it does make some women gain weight and judging by your program, your initial growth appears to have been partially back fat. You did the right thing, but you still need a DHT component. Adding nettle root and pumpkin seed oil would be a good idea.
On flax: Flax seed oil is good for general health. Ground flax seed is not good for BE. The ligands are aromatase inhibitors. Their presence is not significant in the oil but in ground flax seed it is.
On stalling, which I think you are, based on your size and high dosages: It would be typical to see what you saw in the first weeks of your program when on high dosages, which is a lot of activity at first and then nothing. The test for stalling is to stop everything you are doing and count the days until you start feeling growing pains (if you do). If you do not feel growing pains within one week then you were not stalled. If you do, then you will want to know the number of days that passed until you start feeling growing pains again. The higher the number, the greater you were stalled. You can then adjust your dosages accordingly. A method that I think would work good for the AA-AAA range is to stall on purpose, then destall, counting the days back, and then ramping up again with your best guess and starting the process all over again. This is cycling. That way, you do get some growth while determining your dosages. But you have to be very in tune with your body so that as soon as you stall (like within a day or two) shut it off and continue titration. Another way, perhaps less like a yo-yo, is to ramp up very slowly, like 500mg of estrogenic herb(s) per week.
Wahaika
Honeydew
(Login honeydew71)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 5:48 PM
Thank you so much Wahaika! I appreciate your input and now I'm going to pick your brain for a minute, if that's okay.
Do you suggest that I go ahead and stop everything I'm doing right now? Or should I continue until the end of my period (approx. 2 1/2 weeks from now) then stop? I'm afraid that if I stop taking my herbs now, that I will lose any potential growth (even though I'm not seeing any right now. I'm hoping it will start soon.... false hope?)
I'll definitely look into getting some pumpkin seed oil or some nettle root. Thank you for the suggestions. By the way, I am taking Flaxseed oil. I'm not taking the seeds. I suppose I should have put that on there!
This message has been edited by honeydew71 on Apr 8, 2008 5:51 PM
jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 9:43 PM
What, I thought ground flax seeds were good for NBE Wahaika!?
Well obviously not good if they weren't ground because then it would just go straight to your bum and not even digest.
So you are saying it's bad for growth? There is far too many posts on here that say otherwise though.
Mango84
(Login Mango84)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 8 2008, 10:52 PM
There are ALOT of posts that give inaccurate information. Accuracy is not measured by "majority." One person states something, and then it gets repeated often as fact, when alot of times it is not fact. I'm sure Wahaika will explain the scientifics behind why the lignans are not good...well...actually he already did...but he might expound on it. (Might you Wahaika?
) In the meantime, I'm sure Googling lignans, aromatase, testosterone, and estrogen would give some info. Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 6:39 AM
Honeydew,
Stop now if you think you're stalled. The sooner you deal with it the better. You can always restart. And no, it's not a false hope, sometimes it takes a while to see results and one is not stalled at all. Your judgement call though.
Wahaika
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 6:41 AM
Jackie,
>>"There is far too many posts on here that say otherwise though."
Interesting. Can you point me to any?
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 6:49 AM
Mango84,
Here are some searches to show that flax seed ligands are aromatase inhibitors:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=flax+seed+ligands+%2Baromatase&btnG=Search
At a certain temperature (98.6 if memory serves) aromatase binds with testosterone to create estrogen. This is one of the momentum effects that BE'ers would like to have working in their favor. So, aromatase inhibitors would cancel this effect.
Another thing to keep free is testosterone. This is why Saw Palmetto, Pumpkin Seed Oil, and Nettle root are so good. They keep testosterone from converting into DHT and therefore free to bind with other things like aromatase. Wild Oats extract (Avena Sativa) is another good thing to take. It binds with SHBG therefore keeping it from binding to free steroid hormones such as testosterone.
Wahaika
jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 1:12 PM
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1203872191/Flaxseed+%26amp%3B+EPO
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1172517275/flaxseed+oil+question%21
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1186024428/anyone+using+flaxseed+4+nbe---does+it+work--+results--
...Just some examples.
You can just go to the search on here and type in flaxseed and theres a lot of people who have used it and had good results. There has been a lot of research on it really.
Honeydew
(Login honeydew71)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 1:41 PM
Wahaika,
Thanks so much for following up. I've decided to stop taking the herbs for a week to see if I have in fact stalled. Another couple questions if you don't mind. Should I continue to take the VitC, or any of the oils and just stop the herbs? Also, would now be a good time for me to take some Milk Thistle to cleanse? Also, you metioned avena sativa. Do I take it instead of the pumpkin seed oil/or nettle root? Or do I take it including one of those two?
I know it's a pain to answer all this, but this is just my second month of NBE, and I don't know this stuff yet.
Also, I'm assuming it's okay to continue massage.... right? (Ok, that's all. haha)
This message has been edited by honeydew71 on Apr 9, 2008 1:42 PM
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: What to do if you think you're stalling???
April 9 2008, 2:23 PM
Note about crushed flax seed:
It is a very low dose phytoestrogen. It is quite useful for estrogen dominance because it will bind to estrogen receptors and prevent stronger estrogen agents from binding.
This would likely make crushed flaxseed a problem for NBE if the woman's approach is to use phytoestrogens for growth.
Now here comes the confusing part:
A woman who is highly estrogen dominant is unlikely to have much luck with NBE because of the high estrogen causing problems with thyroid. Hypothyroid (low thyroid) symptoms are very much akin to estrogen dominance symptoms.
Proper thyroid function is essential for NBE. Those who attempt to grow without correcting the thyroid imbalance are often thwarted. Many of the 'packaged' NBE supplements allude to this.
-----------------------------------------------------
Here is my theory:
Most phytoestrogens are slightly lower in their effect than our natural estrogen. For women with normal estrogen who just don't create enough estrogen, the use of phytoestrogens will fill up more receptors and thus give a net effect of increasing total estrogen for the body. (sure the phytoestrogen that is hitting the receptors is lower than natural estrogen, but there is so much of it the total effect is greater) These women respond quickly to NBE and do not stall easily.
For women with slight estrogen dominance (meaning they have normal amounts of estrogen but do not have enough progesterone to balance what estrogen they have) the use of phytoestrogens would actually lower the total estrogen, which would allow what progesterone they have to 'balance' better and the net effect would be NBE. I think this group of women are more likely to stall when using phytoestrogens (too much phytoestrogen would increase the total estrogen and thus create the imbalance between estrogen and progesterone again).
For women with strong estrogen dominance (very low progesterone and probable low estrogen) the use of phytoestrogens will increase the total estrogen and also increase estrogen dominance symptoms. This where crushed flaxseed can be very helpful. It will lower total body estrogen and help with progesterone balance - which will lower hypothyroid symptoms and make NBE possible.
----------------------------------------------------------
So -once again it all boils down to who you are. For some crushed flaxseed will hinder NBE. For some it will help.
By the way -women with strong estrogen dominance who must take crushed flaxseed to combat it may achieve NBE through increasing progesterone, massage and the use of galactogouges when the estrogen dominance is more under control. At least this is the theory I am testing out.
Hope this theory of mine has helped more than it has confused,
waxingmoon