01-03-2016, 01:41
Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007 at 10:08 PM Corrie (Login Corrie73)
http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2005/09/08/heh-heh-heh/
This article was written by a lady struggling with infertility, so her perspective is a little different than what we are aiming for here, but the article is very interesting regarding anti-progesterone.
She says that herbs with phytoprogestins like damiana and red clover, actually block progesterone in the body.
This would be bad for us PMS girls who are already low on progesterone. She also seems to make a correlation between low progesterone and infertility (also mentioned on Dr. John Lee's site). So...if she is correct, and damiana and red clover block progesterone, then they would not be good to take, unless one had excess progesterone, something I have not heard of. Also, I wonder if those herbs would counteract the effects of pro-progesterone herbs, like vitex.
I am actually taking damiana, not for NBE specifically, but for low libido, and it has worked wonders for that. So I am not going to quit taking it. But I wonder if it is another mechanism that makes it work for libido, besides the progesterone/estrogen balance. Because I know that I am low-progesterone (since I have had severe PMS and lots of improvement from vitex), so I doubt that lowering my progesterone could be helping me, unless the damiana is helping me in some completely different way.
I was thinking of taking red clover in my new program that I'll be starting soon, but now I think I may just stick to fenugreek and saw palmetto (in addition to the other herbs I already take, like vitex and damiana).
I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 10:21 PM
Here is another point about this:
I was just reading the discussion about libido on the vitex thread and this occured to me. IF it were true that vitex lowers libido AND it were true that damiana raised libido THEN we could say that:
higher progesterone = lower libido
lower progesterone = higher libido
UNLESS something other than the estrogen/progesterone activity of the herbs was accounting for their effects on libido.
The alternate names for the herbs are kind of interesting:
Vitex = chaste tree berry
Damiana = turnera aphrodisiaca
I, for one, am actually taking both of these herbs now. (Damiana for libido and vitex for pms.)
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
More evidence of this...
January 4 2007, 10:34 PM
Saw Palmetto is said to be both estrogenic and anti-progesterone...AND it is said to increase libido in women.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 10:40 PM
The link unfortunately doesn't work for me.
I think you got your answer, red clover probably wouldn't be good for you. I dunno if you are right on the progesterone libido relationship, but usually things are a lot more complex than that, still some simplifications are sometimes remotely accurate and useful for orientation. I actually thought that I might be too high on progesterone, or at least 'progesterone dominant' eg high progesterone compared to estrogen, that would be the same as estrogen defficient and it's the most common imballance. Maybe lowering progesterone a little to smooth out that dominance is beneficial, even if one doesn't have extremely excessive progesterone. I wonder though if red clover binds only the body's progesterone or also the sintetic progesterone in BCP, which is a very strong one.
violet
(Login _violet_)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 11:04 PM
Definitely a very interesting article.
From what I've read prior to starting NBE and choosing my routine:
Libido depends of many factors, progesterone doesn't lower one's libido, in fact, when you raise progesterone, dopamine levels tend to be raised as well. Dopamine is responsible for feelings of well being and excitement. Libido also depends on testosterone, not only in men but in women as well. That's why vitex may lower ,increase or simply do not affect one's libido, vitex balances the ratio between estrogen and progesterone, also may have an anti-androgenic effect and lower prolactin levels when they're in excess.
sunrise
(no login)
wild yam & libido
January 5 2007, 3:26 AM
I think wild yam is very effective in increasing libido. I am actually not inclined to take it since I don't have a partner! LOL!
January 4 2007 at 10:08 PM Corrie (Login Corrie73)
http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2005/09/08/heh-heh-heh/
This article was written by a lady struggling with infertility, so her perspective is a little different than what we are aiming for here, but the article is very interesting regarding anti-progesterone.
She says that herbs with phytoprogestins like damiana and red clover, actually block progesterone in the body.
This would be bad for us PMS girls who are already low on progesterone. She also seems to make a correlation between low progesterone and infertility (also mentioned on Dr. John Lee's site). So...if she is correct, and damiana and red clover block progesterone, then they would not be good to take, unless one had excess progesterone, something I have not heard of. Also, I wonder if those herbs would counteract the effects of pro-progesterone herbs, like vitex.
I am actually taking damiana, not for NBE specifically, but for low libido, and it has worked wonders for that. So I am not going to quit taking it. But I wonder if it is another mechanism that makes it work for libido, besides the progesterone/estrogen balance. Because I know that I am low-progesterone (since I have had severe PMS and lots of improvement from vitex), so I doubt that lowering my progesterone could be helping me, unless the damiana is helping me in some completely different way.
I was thinking of taking red clover in my new program that I'll be starting soon, but now I think I may just stick to fenugreek and saw palmetto (in addition to the other herbs I already take, like vitex and damiana).
I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 10:21 PM
Here is another point about this:
I was just reading the discussion about libido on the vitex thread and this occured to me. IF it were true that vitex lowers libido AND it were true that damiana raised libido THEN we could say that:
higher progesterone = lower libido
lower progesterone = higher libido
UNLESS something other than the estrogen/progesterone activity of the herbs was accounting for their effects on libido.
The alternate names for the herbs are kind of interesting:
Vitex = chaste tree berry
Damiana = turnera aphrodisiaca
I, for one, am actually taking both of these herbs now. (Damiana for libido and vitex for pms.)
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
More evidence of this...
January 4 2007, 10:34 PM
Saw Palmetto is said to be both estrogenic and anti-progesterone...AND it is said to increase libido in women.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 10:40 PM
The link unfortunately doesn't work for me.
I think you got your answer, red clover probably wouldn't be good for you. I dunno if you are right on the progesterone libido relationship, but usually things are a lot more complex than that, still some simplifications are sometimes remotely accurate and useful for orientation. I actually thought that I might be too high on progesterone, or at least 'progesterone dominant' eg high progesterone compared to estrogen, that would be the same as estrogen defficient and it's the most common imballance. Maybe lowering progesterone a little to smooth out that dominance is beneficial, even if one doesn't have extremely excessive progesterone. I wonder though if red clover binds only the body's progesterone or also the sintetic progesterone in BCP, which is a very strong one.
violet
(Login _violet_)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Very Interesting Article about Herbs and Hormones
January 4 2007, 11:04 PM
Definitely a very interesting article.
From what I've read prior to starting NBE and choosing my routine:
Libido depends of many factors, progesterone doesn't lower one's libido, in fact, when you raise progesterone, dopamine levels tend to be raised as well. Dopamine is responsible for feelings of well being and excitement. Libido also depends on testosterone, not only in men but in women as well. That's why vitex may lower ,increase or simply do not affect one's libido, vitex balances the ratio between estrogen and progesterone, also may have an anti-androgenic effect and lower prolactin levels when they're in excess.
sunrise
(no login)
wild yam & libido
January 5 2007, 3:26 AM
I think wild yam is very effective in increasing libido. I am actually not inclined to take it since I don't have a partner! LOL!