19-02-2016, 15:18
progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 1 2009 at 5:55 PM madboobie (Login madboobie)
SENIOR MEMBER
HI,,I am sure I've read somewhere on the forum that the use of progesterone cream frees up oestrogen receptors and can be a positive if supplements appear to work for a couple of months, then stop working (as the receptors are all filled?)
Have ben trying to find it but it's taking me ages and no luck so please let me off if this has been done to death (alternatively please ignore!)
I would also be interested on people's opinions on PM and progesterone cream.
Frankly i am getting sick of having a dodgy cycle no matter what I do with the PM and am wondering whether progesterone cream after the 15 days of PM would help to regularise things?
I do think Pm is a positive thing in terms of NBE but the messed up periods are getting to me.
Thanks for any help.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 2 2009, 5:10 PM
Hi Madboobie,
Progesterone causes the activation of dormant estrogen receptors. It does not 'free up receptors' per say. If you have some estrogen receptors that are not taking in any hormone, then it will 'wake them up' and they will begin to function. This causes a rise in total body estrogen.
Progesterone also balances the harmful effects of estrogen. Without enough progesterone the body is subject to a whole host of wicked symptoms detailed in estrogen dominance lists.
So, if a person is taking something like PM which is more potent than their body's natural estrogen they are already running a risk of the symptoms of estrogen dominance. Also, taking oral estrogen increases greatly the risk of blood clots. The blood clot effect is diminished if the estrogen is topically applied (I know they offer PM as a topical agent - this would reduce your risks).
I am afraid your idea of using the progesterone to 'balance' the PM might instead increase your risk of heightened estrogen producing bad effects (like estrogen dominance symptoms) or very bad effects (like blood clots, strokes and increased risk of cancers).
It is my opinion (but hey, when have I ever held back... lol) - you are already doing something that is risky as far as your hormone health is concerned. Don't make it worse by using another hormone to try and increase your body's total estrogen further. Progesterone is a hormone - not an NBE tool. It comes with risks and in the situation you are describing it would actually increase your risks.
As I always say - your health is your greatest wealth - nobody is going to remark on your big hooters if you are lying there in a casket. Keep healthy.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
SvelteCutie
(no login)
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 2 2009, 6:18 PM
Thanks for the info waxingmoon. You saved me from buying progesterone cream for that very purpose.
SvelteCutie
(no login)
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 2 2009, 6:28 PM
I was thinking this over and I'm a bit confused. So pc will wake up estrogen receptors but balances out estrogen at the same time. The reason why it won't balance out pm is because...pm is a more potent estrogen being introduced in the body? So pc only balances estrogen made by the body and not outside sources? Forgive me if I'm wrong but this is the general gist I get of it from what you're saying.
madboobie
(no login)
to waxing moon, would you please tell me what you think of this?
February 3 2009, 1:29 PM
Thanks for your reply to my question.
I'll show you what set me off on that course of thinking - I've pasted it in below - its a response form Wahaika to another post by moi a while ago.
What you beleive seems a little different to what he beleives and I'd be really interested in your thoughts on his thoughts!!
Just trying to make sense of everything, really.
You sound as though you think PM is one of the more risky NBE agents? Given the effects on periods I'm inclined to see the sense of this.
Anyway, here's the post....
Receptor sensitivity is brought on by depriving the receptor of it's target hormone. Estrogen receptors are the most sensitive when they have been deprived of estrogen the longest.
The reason that I would say that most manufacturers recommend days 1-14 is because that is when estrogen is the lowest and therefore estrogen receptor sites are the most sensitive. For the other lady who has the website that recommends days 7-21, I would say that she is just putting that principle to work by waiting longer. I think that this is logical but by running further into the cycle, she runs into the ramp up of progesterone. So, she does have a better idea in my opinion, but I would say to start on the day that menstruation ends, whenever that is, and to go for 14 days from that day. Further, to help support the cycle as much as possible, I would say to:
* Take a one day break on ovualtion day which is around day 12 to 14 when lutenizing hormone is at its peak OR
* Rather than lower the dosage, remove days from the length of time that PM is taken. Example: Start PM on day 5 for 14 days. If a 28 day cycle is 29 days long, take PM for 13 days the next month. OR
* Take progesterone cream on the day after the last dosage of PM for that month. OR
* Some combination of the above.
The reason that PM is probably interfering with the cycle length (and spotting) is because PM must interfere with progesterone somehow, perhaps by competition. It should be remembered, that a lot of early breast development takes place before menarche (first period) when there is, in theory, not yet any progesterone manufacturing due to the lack of ovulation/corpus luteum. NBE is really more of a focus on estrogen.
If I were to take a guess, I would say that a one time dosage of USP progesterone cream on the day after the last dosage of PM for the month may help keep the cycle regulated. For estrogen receptor sensitivity, I think that the best days are (end of menstruation day) to +14. Trimming days off the length of time PM is taken is probably a better idea than lowering the overall dosage. On the other hand, I don't know of anyone who has tried ramping PM.
Wahaika
Whaddya think? Big thanks to you x
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 4 2009, 2:57 AM
Hi Sveltcutie,
Here more specifically is what I am saying. PM influences your total body estrogen higher than normal. Progesterone cream's initial effect is to make available even more estrogen receptors which will push the total body estrogen even higher. To 'balance' this increase even more progesterone would need to be used.
The net effect of this is to raise in your body two hormones that are known to increase the growth of estrogen/progesterone sensitive cancers. This is hardly something I would recommend to anyone. Not only that, but overdosing on either hormone can and will lead to some serious side effects - even if they are not lethal - feeling as bad as you can with excess estrogen or excess progesterone is not good.
Why subject yourself to such an increased risk just to make your breasts bigger. It is one thing to use progesterone in order to balance what might be occurring naturally in your body. The proper treatment of estrogen dominance also advises removing the sources of increased estrogen. Those sources are found in pesticides, solvents, artificial hormones in non organic meats, etc.
To push your estrogen levels up then try and compensate for the misery you are causing your body by pushing your progesterone levels up is a recipe for disaster. It also is unlikely to provide lasting growth. Once this elevated level of hormones is halted, there would likely be a loss of the 'growth' gained. Are you willing to keep your hormone levels abnormally high all your life in order to keep any gains you might make?
I always promote sensible and safe NBE. I don't think it is any news to anyone that I am not a big fan of using strongly potent phytoestrogens (like PM, soy and Red Clover). I work with several people that are suffering from the effects of cancer and I advise everyone to steer clear of known hazards. We know estrogen promotes growth of some cancer cells. We know progesterone promotes the growth of some cancer cells. The only safe way to handle this information is to use the least amount of anything that could raise estrogen or progesterone levels.
Used correctly, phytoestrogens and progesterone can be very safe and very healthy. Let's all do everything we can to guard that most precious item - our health.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie)
Muy Interesante
February 4 2009, 4:04 AM
Hmmm, ok. So though Pm will indeed give an increase in breast size it probably won't be lasting once stopped because it is introducing abnormally high estrogen levels to get the boob increase in the first place. Is this right? If so, then PM has an effect much like how bcp inflates breasts in some but once women go off it, some women breasts will deflate to their previous size even though they may have been on it for a long time? Well given that they didn't gain weight during that time too.
Well drat. I will not be taking PM forever, don't have the interest in doing so. I can see how trying to use progesterone can cause a cycling effect that would eventually make too many hormones in the system after awhile.
And I have all this pm. Well I could always make it into a cream and hope for the best, unless the topical effect would end up temporary also.
So the next thing would be to find a phytoestrogen that would work for me. The main potent phyto-estrogens aren't much of an option for me. Fenugreek lowers my blood sugar much too low(I'm hypoglycemic) and saw palmetto makes me very moody. I have hops in liquid form and plan to use it. Oh but this just reminded me. My adrenal levels are off. And after much reading I keep getting that these have to be in order before I go messing with my hormones to attain BE. Have you dealt with individuals with stressed adrenals? I've read ashwaganda and omega fatty acids are good for supporting them and helping them to balance, I just want to nudge them back into the right direction before they get so out of hand I'll need steroids to correct them.
And soy milk and soy isoflavones a no-no?
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie)
One More Thing, lol
February 4 2009, 4:29 AM
What is your take on growth hormones? I've come across info for and against it, but after reading that growth hormones are absolutely needed for breast growth I don't what to do with it. I don't know what to do with myself either. I have always been an AA cup. And it's ONLY me and my mom who are this small. Aunts, grandma, cousins have much bigger boobs, at least a B cup. Thru carrying 4 kids my breasts never really grew that much during pregnancy. I did get up to a loose b after having them but it was milk. :/ I can live with small breasts for the rest of my life, I just want to see if I can indeed get them to grow some.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 4 2009, 1:32 PM
Hi SvelteCutie,
Real growth hormone is very expensive. They will sell you all sorts of 'precursor' agents that supposedly enhance your body's production of GH, but those are not necessarily proven to work. Also, just like the other hormones, when GH is taken above what the body needs it results in some very negative things.
You can naturally enhance you body's production of growth hormone through avoiding sugar and doing muscle building exercises. This will naturally enhance your system and can increase your breast size without putting you at risk.
However, you should broaden what you consider NBE as well. Not every program calls for the use of things that will take the body away from hormone balance. There are very successful programs that use massage or suction. These have an equal or greater track record to the herb routines. The massage is free and the suction methods can be obtained for very little money (of course some are quite pricey).
You have a great attitude about you self and what you want from NBE. With that approach you would probably do great in a non herbal routine.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
February 1 2009 at 5:55 PM madboobie (Login madboobie)
SENIOR MEMBER
HI,,I am sure I've read somewhere on the forum that the use of progesterone cream frees up oestrogen receptors and can be a positive if supplements appear to work for a couple of months, then stop working (as the receptors are all filled?)
Have ben trying to find it but it's taking me ages and no luck so please let me off if this has been done to death (alternatively please ignore!)
I would also be interested on people's opinions on PM and progesterone cream.
Frankly i am getting sick of having a dodgy cycle no matter what I do with the PM and am wondering whether progesterone cream after the 15 days of PM would help to regularise things?
I do think Pm is a positive thing in terms of NBE but the messed up periods are getting to me.
Thanks for any help.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 2 2009, 5:10 PM
Hi Madboobie,
Progesterone causes the activation of dormant estrogen receptors. It does not 'free up receptors' per say. If you have some estrogen receptors that are not taking in any hormone, then it will 'wake them up' and they will begin to function. This causes a rise in total body estrogen.
Progesterone also balances the harmful effects of estrogen. Without enough progesterone the body is subject to a whole host of wicked symptoms detailed in estrogen dominance lists.
So, if a person is taking something like PM which is more potent than their body's natural estrogen they are already running a risk of the symptoms of estrogen dominance. Also, taking oral estrogen increases greatly the risk of blood clots. The blood clot effect is diminished if the estrogen is topically applied (I know they offer PM as a topical agent - this would reduce your risks).
I am afraid your idea of using the progesterone to 'balance' the PM might instead increase your risk of heightened estrogen producing bad effects (like estrogen dominance symptoms) or very bad effects (like blood clots, strokes and increased risk of cancers).
It is my opinion (but hey, when have I ever held back... lol) - you are already doing something that is risky as far as your hormone health is concerned. Don't make it worse by using another hormone to try and increase your body's total estrogen further. Progesterone is a hormone - not an NBE tool. It comes with risks and in the situation you are describing it would actually increase your risks.
As I always say - your health is your greatest wealth - nobody is going to remark on your big hooters if you are lying there in a casket. Keep healthy.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
SvelteCutie
(no login)
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 2 2009, 6:18 PM
Thanks for the info waxingmoon. You saved me from buying progesterone cream for that very purpose.
SvelteCutie
(no login)
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 2 2009, 6:28 PM
I was thinking this over and I'm a bit confused. So pc will wake up estrogen receptors but balances out estrogen at the same time. The reason why it won't balance out pm is because...pm is a more potent estrogen being introduced in the body? So pc only balances estrogen made by the body and not outside sources? Forgive me if I'm wrong but this is the general gist I get of it from what you're saying.
madboobie
(no login)
to waxing moon, would you please tell me what you think of this?
February 3 2009, 1:29 PM
Thanks for your reply to my question.
I'll show you what set me off on that course of thinking - I've pasted it in below - its a response form Wahaika to another post by moi a while ago.
What you beleive seems a little different to what he beleives and I'd be really interested in your thoughts on his thoughts!!
Just trying to make sense of everything, really.
You sound as though you think PM is one of the more risky NBE agents? Given the effects on periods I'm inclined to see the sense of this.
Anyway, here's the post....
Receptor sensitivity is brought on by depriving the receptor of it's target hormone. Estrogen receptors are the most sensitive when they have been deprived of estrogen the longest.
The reason that I would say that most manufacturers recommend days 1-14 is because that is when estrogen is the lowest and therefore estrogen receptor sites are the most sensitive. For the other lady who has the website that recommends days 7-21, I would say that she is just putting that principle to work by waiting longer. I think that this is logical but by running further into the cycle, she runs into the ramp up of progesterone. So, she does have a better idea in my opinion, but I would say to start on the day that menstruation ends, whenever that is, and to go for 14 days from that day. Further, to help support the cycle as much as possible, I would say to:
* Take a one day break on ovualtion day which is around day 12 to 14 when lutenizing hormone is at its peak OR
* Rather than lower the dosage, remove days from the length of time that PM is taken. Example: Start PM on day 5 for 14 days. If a 28 day cycle is 29 days long, take PM for 13 days the next month. OR
* Take progesterone cream on the day after the last dosage of PM for that month. OR
* Some combination of the above.
The reason that PM is probably interfering with the cycle length (and spotting) is because PM must interfere with progesterone somehow, perhaps by competition. It should be remembered, that a lot of early breast development takes place before menarche (first period) when there is, in theory, not yet any progesterone manufacturing due to the lack of ovulation/corpus luteum. NBE is really more of a focus on estrogen.
If I were to take a guess, I would say that a one time dosage of USP progesterone cream on the day after the last dosage of PM for the month may help keep the cycle regulated. For estrogen receptor sensitivity, I think that the best days are (end of menstruation day) to +14. Trimming days off the length of time PM is taken is probably a better idea than lowering the overall dosage. On the other hand, I don't know of anyone who has tried ramping PM.
Wahaika
Whaddya think? Big thanks to you x
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 4 2009, 2:57 AM
Hi Sveltcutie,
Here more specifically is what I am saying. PM influences your total body estrogen higher than normal. Progesterone cream's initial effect is to make available even more estrogen receptors which will push the total body estrogen even higher. To 'balance' this increase even more progesterone would need to be used.
The net effect of this is to raise in your body two hormones that are known to increase the growth of estrogen/progesterone sensitive cancers. This is hardly something I would recommend to anyone. Not only that, but overdosing on either hormone can and will lead to some serious side effects - even if they are not lethal - feeling as bad as you can with excess estrogen or excess progesterone is not good.
Why subject yourself to such an increased risk just to make your breasts bigger. It is one thing to use progesterone in order to balance what might be occurring naturally in your body. The proper treatment of estrogen dominance also advises removing the sources of increased estrogen. Those sources are found in pesticides, solvents, artificial hormones in non organic meats, etc.
To push your estrogen levels up then try and compensate for the misery you are causing your body by pushing your progesterone levels up is a recipe for disaster. It also is unlikely to provide lasting growth. Once this elevated level of hormones is halted, there would likely be a loss of the 'growth' gained. Are you willing to keep your hormone levels abnormally high all your life in order to keep any gains you might make?
I always promote sensible and safe NBE. I don't think it is any news to anyone that I am not a big fan of using strongly potent phytoestrogens (like PM, soy and Red Clover). I work with several people that are suffering from the effects of cancer and I advise everyone to steer clear of known hazards. We know estrogen promotes growth of some cancer cells. We know progesterone promotes the growth of some cancer cells. The only safe way to handle this information is to use the least amount of anything that could raise estrogen or progesterone levels.
Used correctly, phytoestrogens and progesterone can be very safe and very healthy. Let's all do everything we can to guard that most precious item - our health.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie)
Muy Interesante
February 4 2009, 4:04 AM
Hmmm, ok. So though Pm will indeed give an increase in breast size it probably won't be lasting once stopped because it is introducing abnormally high estrogen levels to get the boob increase in the first place. Is this right? If so, then PM has an effect much like how bcp inflates breasts in some but once women go off it, some women breasts will deflate to their previous size even though they may have been on it for a long time? Well given that they didn't gain weight during that time too.
Well drat. I will not be taking PM forever, don't have the interest in doing so. I can see how trying to use progesterone can cause a cycling effect that would eventually make too many hormones in the system after awhile.
And I have all this pm. Well I could always make it into a cream and hope for the best, unless the topical effect would end up temporary also.
So the next thing would be to find a phytoestrogen that would work for me. The main potent phyto-estrogens aren't much of an option for me. Fenugreek lowers my blood sugar much too low(I'm hypoglycemic) and saw palmetto makes me very moody. I have hops in liquid form and plan to use it. Oh but this just reminded me. My adrenal levels are off. And after much reading I keep getting that these have to be in order before I go messing with my hormones to attain BE. Have you dealt with individuals with stressed adrenals? I've read ashwaganda and omega fatty acids are good for supporting them and helping them to balance, I just want to nudge them back into the right direction before they get so out of hand I'll need steroids to correct them.
And soy milk and soy isoflavones a no-no?
SvelteCutie
(Login SvelteCutie)
One More Thing, lol
February 4 2009, 4:29 AM
What is your take on growth hormones? I've come across info for and against it, but after reading that growth hormones are absolutely needed for breast growth I don't what to do with it. I don't know what to do with myself either. I have always been an AA cup. And it's ONLY me and my mom who are this small. Aunts, grandma, cousins have much bigger boobs, at least a B cup. Thru carrying 4 kids my breasts never really grew that much during pregnancy. I did get up to a loose b after having them but it was milk. :/ I can live with small breasts for the rest of my life, I just want to see if I can indeed get them to grow some.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: progesterone cream / freeing up receptors
February 4 2009, 1:32 PM
Hi SvelteCutie,
Real growth hormone is very expensive. They will sell you all sorts of 'precursor' agents that supposedly enhance your body's production of GH, but those are not necessarily proven to work. Also, just like the other hormones, when GH is taken above what the body needs it results in some very negative things.
You can naturally enhance you body's production of growth hormone through avoiding sugar and doing muscle building exercises. This will naturally enhance your system and can increase your breast size without putting you at risk.
However, you should broaden what you consider NBE as well. Not every program calls for the use of things that will take the body away from hormone balance. There are very successful programs that use massage or suction. These have an equal or greater track record to the herb routines. The massage is free and the suction methods can be obtained for very little money (of course some are quite pricey).
You have a great attitude about you self and what you want from NBE. With that approach you would probably do great in a non herbal routine.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon