05-02-2016, 03:32
Is Progesterone needed?
November 2 2006 at 9:51 PM
Miss Monet (Login friskyflirt)
SENIOR MEMBER
Question: When doing NBE you need to find both estrogen-like herbs ("phytoestrogen") *AND* progesterone-like herbs ("progestogen") to balance your system out and keep your body safe, right? I've read somewhere that if you only take estrogen and you don't have any progesterone to balance things out that you can risk developing uterine cancer.
If this is true, what herbs are progesterone-like? I know a lot of estrogen-like herbs (like Fenugreek, Fennel, Soy, etc.) but not progesterone-like.
Or does this only apply if you have a progesterone deficiency?
Thanks, girls!
Mu-mu
(Login mu-mu)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
November 3 2006, 12:29 AM
I use progesterone cream in the second half of my cycle. I also take all the "estrogen" herbs (fenugreek, SP, soy), so I'm hoping I'm balancing the things. I'm not sure though; I wish somebody more knowledgeable would answer this question (SugarQ?).
Mu-mu
yvonne
(Login yvonne03)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
November 3 2006, 2:23 AM
i agree....i took those tests and they said that i have deficiencies.....but i don't know how that will affect my NBE.....someone please help us!!
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 5 2008, 2:49 PM
Bump!
I want the answer.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 5:30 PM
Hi Miss Monet,
Here is my take on the subject.
1) If a woman is balanced in her hormones when she begins NBE she will be more likely to achieve results. She does not need to increase either her estrogen or her progesterone. She will likely be able to grow using herbs that are known for their galactogouge effect. (yes, some of those herbs are phytoestrogens, but I believe they work not due to an increase of estrogen, but rather 'other' reasons (ie -the herbs that prepare breasts for milk production = bigger size))
2) If a woman is unbalanced in her hormones she will need to balance them first to achieve results. The question here is what hormones are too low and what hormones are too high. There are quite a few combinations - low progesterone (known as estrogen dominance) - high androgen (too much testosterone) - low estrogen - low thyroid - high thyroid... There can also be combinations of them -(low estrogen + lower progesterone = estrogen dominance is just one example).
There is a great difficulty in this since most people are unlikely to do salivary or blood tests prior to NBE -and some do not even know that these imbalances exist before beginning NBE. Once you begin to add in herbs you can make a complicated system even more complicated. The online questionaires are helpful, but confirmation through salivary testing would be the most accurate way for a woman to know if her hormones are balanced or unbalanced.
3)Herbs can be used to bring a woman into balance.
Estrogenic herbs are by far the most plentiful. Some have even higher estrogen effect than our body's natural estrogen - so beware. Unopposed estrogen (too much estrogen for the progesterone your body produces) is linked to cancer, blood clots and strokes as well as other symptoms.
Progesterone promoting herbs are very limited. Vitex is really the only reasonable herb out there. Some herbs will bind to the progesterone receptors but actually lower overall progesterone. Of course a woman can use Progesterone cream (USP grade) - but this needs to be done only if a woman has researched the correct amount, application sites and timing. Excess progesterone is harmful and using too much progesterone cream can cause this. Some cancers are progesterone sensitive and some conditions like very large uterine fibroids respond badly to progesterone use. So here again - do your research and be wary.
---------------------------------------------------------
Will taking estrogenic herbs without supplementing progesterone lead to an increased risk of cancer? Well since most estrogenic herbs are actually lower in estrogen effect than our own estrogen - the answer would be probably not. The research is still not absolutely conclusive, but most of it says there is not increase cancer risk.
But of course that depends on the herb. Any estrogenic herb that has greater estrogen effect in the body could be more risky. There is a list of estrogenic and progesteronic herbs on the Information on Herbs thread that I posted some time back. You can see which herbs are more potent than our body's own hormones.
__________________________________________________________________________
Now here is my advice for those who have symptoms of imbalance in estrogen/progesterone. Jackie hit the nail on the head in another thread when she said that using vitex a few months prior to beginning NBE was a wise choice. Here is why that would be the case...
Progesterone is used by our body as the starting point of many other hormones - estrogen being one of those. Progesterone also activates dormant estrogen receptors. By using a progesterone enhancing herb you will balance any estrogen dominance you might have (meaning increase low progesterone levels), you will increase your body's natural estrogen and you will increase the number of estrogen receptors for that estrogen to bind too. End result = Big Honking Hooters ...lol - or perhaps a modest cup or two...
Anyway... before I yak on any further... hope this has helped,
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 5:57 PM
Waxingmoon - I thought that no phytoestrogens came even close to the strength of the pill / HRT and those come nowhere near the strength of the body's endogenous estrogen? I know there is a certain quantity (?300mg) of soy isoflavones that is supposed to be equivalent to 1 premarin tablet but in general aren't phytoestrogens considered to be weak in activity per receptor site they block if you see what I mean, which is why stalling occurs? I'm sure it was Moon that said this when I was asking about how herbs compare to BCP.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 7:58 PM
Louise,
Here is an excerpt from something I posted on the Herbs section. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/484503/thread/1169393452/last-1185267505/More+info+on+estrogen-progesterone+herbs )
The original article was talking about the potential of herbs affecting estrogen positive cancer cells. It refers to herbs that contain estrogenic potential and how they compare to our naturally created estrogen:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Any herb or spice with a score above 400 has greater estrogenic activity than estradiol.
TABLE 2
Effects of ER(estrogen receptor) binding herbs on ER (+) Breast Cancer Cells
Coumestrol 2500
Licorice 1600
Jumiper 100
Bloodroot 0
Red Clover 3000
Nutmeg 200
Mistletoe 500
White Clover 500
Dong Quai 200
Yucca 2600
Thyme 2
Damiana 200
Table 2 indicates that coumestrol, red clover, mistletoe, don quai, hops, licorice, white clover, yucca and motherwort are more estrogenic than estradiol! For people at risk for breast cancer avoiding the aforementioned herbs and spices seems prudent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The last part of that statement is the opinion of the author that quoted the study - it is not the finding of the study itself, but I think it is a valid opinion.
So what this shows is that several of the herbs that people routinely use for NBE are potentially more potent than natural estrogen. This is a cause for concern if these herbs are over used because they could cause a person to develop imbalances in regard to estrogen.
Now the table above does not talk about dosages - that is in this next table:
_____________________________________________________________________
TABLE 1
Herbs and Spices Containing ER (estrogen receptor) Binding Components
Micrograms of Estradiol Equivalents/200 cc or 2 gm Dry Herb
Soy milk 8/200cc
Yucca 0.5
Licorice 4/2 gm
Tumeric 0.5
Red Clover 3
Hops 0.5
Mandrake 3
Verbenna 0.5
Bloodroot 2
Yellow Dock 0.5
Thyme 2
Sheep sorrel 0.5
It is important to understand that just because a food, herb or spice has ER binding capability, it does not mean that it inhibits estrogen formation or acts as a natural aromatase inhibitor. In fact, the total opposite is true. In short, Table 1 indicates that the 12 listed agents have estrogenic activity at low physiological doses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, what this table is telling us that these herbs are going to have a certain number of milligrams of estrogen per 2 grams of herbs. Now remember for many of these herbs the estrogen is less potent than what our body makes. BUT!! The red clover and licorice are more potent than our body's estrogen.
I know it is all very complicated even with these charts however I have never found any other reference that can help us to know just how much hormone we might be adding to our bodies.
Red clover and licorice should be used sparingly. (pueraria mirifica (PM) is another highly estrogenic herb but was not included in the study) They are the ones that will potentially do the most disruption of natural hormone balance. They are the ones to be avoided by estrogen dominant women.
And I know the tables do not list fenugreek or fennel. That is because they are not considered very estrogenic. They work for NBE by a different means - as galactogogues.
I am of the opinion that most women do not need to increase estrogen in order to enhance breast size. A thorough review of this forum will show that those who use highly estrogenic herbs to gain size are getting temporary results and also developing very worrisome symptoms in time.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
This message has been edited by waxingmoon on Mar 6, 2008 8:00 PM
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:10 PM
If the galactogogues don't work for a woman though than would you say she should try the stronger estrogenic herbs? or no?
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:28 PM
ZINGGG !!!! :]
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:35 PM
ps-
Can someone tell me exactly what "PM" is.. I'm not in on all the .. abbreviations for herbs. And I searched it on the forum and nothing came up.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:38 PM
It's Pueraria Mirfica, there's a special forum for it here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/484965/
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:39 PM
Hopeful,
I am not sure I would ever suggest someone use the more potent estrogen herbs. Faerycat had some growth using an estrogen based program and it really came back to haunt her.
Here is a link to her program page:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/482052/thread/1151055316/Faerycat%27s+Programme
Be sure to read some of the last posts she made on her program page. Yes she got initial growth with mirifica. (I think she eventually used WU and other things as well) Yes, you can see from her picture page that indeed her results seemed fantastic - BUT her methods negatively impacted her health and she lost most of her results.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Your health is far more important than a big ole bushel o' boob. Nobody is going to see those honkers if you are sick in bed. (or worse yet... tits up in the coffin... urgh)
I personally think it would be a lot worse to have gained as much as Faerycat did and then LOSE it and my health than to have never gained any boob at all.
And by the way - I am not ragging on Faerycat. I hope she is doing well and her health has returned. She was just the best example I could think of to point out what a dangerous road we could tread if we push the estrogenic herbs.
waxingmoon
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:43 PM
That's so true, as nonexistant as my breasts are they don't bother me soo much that I'm willing to risk for my health for them. there are days when I really wish I had bigger ones but in general I don't worry about it too much. Thanks, and I hope faery is doing well too.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:51 PM
Do you think I'd be ok with coumestrol baring in mind I can't take warfarin because it gives me nosebleeds?
I'm seriously considering ditching WU and trying some strong separate herbs, I feel like I need less fenugreek! Was thinking soy + red clover + hops + barley + oats + vit C, one fair size dose before bed with 15g milk protein + 15g soy protein, + 1tsp EPO / borage oil + 1tsp flax....maybe some goat's rue...+ green papaya and 1 hour super suction BB to tell it where to go!
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 10:02 PM
Louise,
If you are asking me I would say NO don't do it. Do not increase the estrogenic herbs. Read Fearycat's program page. You have a lot to lose if you do the wrong thing.
A good program page to check out for someone who gained and kept the gains and her health is Surf. She used mostly Fenugreek and Fennel along with SP. She made an impressive 5 inch gain in about 10 months. (she is my hero...lol)
Surf's success is one of the reasons I talk about the positive effects of the galactogouges. Faerycat is one of the reasons I talk about the 'horrors' of estrogenic herbs.
Take care, be wary, don't lose sight of your long term goals (healthy old age),
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 10:14 PM
I really feel that nothing is strong enough, even though I'm small I usually need high doses of meds when I'm sick, also I think the dianette is probably over-ruling the herbs or the metformin stopping their absorption, I've tried upping the WU dose but it hasn't really made any difference and I definitely had more feelings when I took less WU (i.e. less fenugreek) and added separate hops, soy, barley and oats. The red clover's just an idea because I did some research a while back and it seems RC and soy are similar to PM which I've been advised not to take. I really find herbs soooo annoying esp when suction is so simple!
Obviously I don't want to drop dead but I'm willing to go fairly far to look how I want, I already have a couple of different problems that may make me infertile...my main worry would be my hair dropping out, my skins' not that great at the moment and I could do with more weight loss. I've been taking WU since June and not really felt it's done much, just want to make the most of all this stuff, optimum health can wait as long as I don't get too sick to work.
MIles
(no login)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 7 2008, 9:32 PM
Hi Waxing Moon,
I was just wondering how you know that Faery Cat lost most of her growth. I couldn't find the info on her program page and it looks like realy breast tissue growth from her pics and not just swelling or something like that.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 1:16 PM
Hi Miles,
I believe this was information she posted on this main forum instead of in her program page. I am pretty sure I am remembering it correctly. She began experiencing a lot of low thyroid symptoms and said she had lost a lot, if not all of her growth.
I will try to find those posts this weekend so I can make sure I am not mis-remembering things. I know for sure the health problems she had were pretty scary -she attributed it all to her use of phytoestrogens.
waxingmoon
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 4:37 PM
Here's one of her posts: http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1170151016/IT%27S+ALL+GOING+TITS+UP%21%21-------------HELP%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21
Hope this helps
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 5:55 PM
Thanks Hopeful,
Yes that was one of the first links she posted when she began to feel ill. She reported a loss of an inch in breast size along with other frightening symptoms. She at first thought it was candidiasis, but later after research began to believe it was the estrogen that messed her up.
She tried to recover using progesterone cream, but did not have initial good results and lost even more breast size. Here is another link to our further discussions:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1177424776/last-1177557635/CANCER+HAZARD+OF+NATURAL+PROGESTERONE+CREAM%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21
So, I was remembering correctly - it affected not only her health but she lost her gains as well. Beware those herbs that contain high amounts of estrogen.
(just an observation on my part... How many out there would be willing to go through all the physical illness that Faerycat went through???
Would you be willing to be seriously ill if you got to keep your increased breast size??? How much does having larger breasts really mean to you??? Is it more important than your health??
It is just food for though - and a warning about letting our obsessions for bigger breasts out way our desire for good health.)
Take care everyone,
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 8:28 PM
I would have to consider whether I could afford a lot of time off work because I have my own company so I wouldn't get paid, but there isn't much I wouldn't go for to have the figure I want after. Obviously it's no good if I've gone bald or something but to be ill and recover and look better after I could live with. I've had quite a lot of health problems already so maybe I'm less fussy.
Miles
(no login)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 9 2008, 12:42 AM
Thanks Waxing Moon and Hopeful! That's good information to know.
I've now quit the estrogenic herbs I had been using for the last 9 months (had grown a bit, then lost it all) and am using progesterone cream the second half of my cycle. I will begin Vitex with my next cycle. It may be my imagination, or wishfull thinking, but it would appear that the cellulite is already better and so is the bloating! We'll see. I'll keep you posted.
Miles
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 10 2008, 5:20 AM
Oh as much as I want to grow some boobs finally I would never risk my health I want a baby so badly in a few years! That sounds so awful and old fashioned but it's true I can't help my craving for a baby...
November 2 2006 at 9:51 PM
Miss Monet (Login friskyflirt)
SENIOR MEMBER
Question: When doing NBE you need to find both estrogen-like herbs ("phytoestrogen") *AND* progesterone-like herbs ("progestogen") to balance your system out and keep your body safe, right? I've read somewhere that if you only take estrogen and you don't have any progesterone to balance things out that you can risk developing uterine cancer.
If this is true, what herbs are progesterone-like? I know a lot of estrogen-like herbs (like Fenugreek, Fennel, Soy, etc.) but not progesterone-like.
Or does this only apply if you have a progesterone deficiency?
Thanks, girls!
Mu-mu
(Login mu-mu)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
November 3 2006, 12:29 AM
I use progesterone cream in the second half of my cycle. I also take all the "estrogen" herbs (fenugreek, SP, soy), so I'm hoping I'm balancing the things. I'm not sure though; I wish somebody more knowledgeable would answer this question (SugarQ?).
Mu-mu
yvonne
(Login yvonne03)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
November 3 2006, 2:23 AM
i agree....i took those tests and they said that i have deficiencies.....but i don't know how that will affect my NBE.....someone please help us!!
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 5 2008, 2:49 PM
Bump!
I want the answer.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 5:30 PM
Hi Miss Monet,
Here is my take on the subject.
1) If a woman is balanced in her hormones when she begins NBE she will be more likely to achieve results. She does not need to increase either her estrogen or her progesterone. She will likely be able to grow using herbs that are known for their galactogouge effect. (yes, some of those herbs are phytoestrogens, but I believe they work not due to an increase of estrogen, but rather 'other' reasons (ie -the herbs that prepare breasts for milk production = bigger size))
2) If a woman is unbalanced in her hormones she will need to balance them first to achieve results. The question here is what hormones are too low and what hormones are too high. There are quite a few combinations - low progesterone (known as estrogen dominance) - high androgen (too much testosterone) - low estrogen - low thyroid - high thyroid... There can also be combinations of them -(low estrogen + lower progesterone = estrogen dominance is just one example).
There is a great difficulty in this since most people are unlikely to do salivary or blood tests prior to NBE -and some do not even know that these imbalances exist before beginning NBE. Once you begin to add in herbs you can make a complicated system even more complicated. The online questionaires are helpful, but confirmation through salivary testing would be the most accurate way for a woman to know if her hormones are balanced or unbalanced.
3)Herbs can be used to bring a woman into balance.
Estrogenic herbs are by far the most plentiful. Some have even higher estrogen effect than our body's natural estrogen - so beware. Unopposed estrogen (too much estrogen for the progesterone your body produces) is linked to cancer, blood clots and strokes as well as other symptoms.
Progesterone promoting herbs are very limited. Vitex is really the only reasonable herb out there. Some herbs will bind to the progesterone receptors but actually lower overall progesterone. Of course a woman can use Progesterone cream (USP grade) - but this needs to be done only if a woman has researched the correct amount, application sites and timing. Excess progesterone is harmful and using too much progesterone cream can cause this. Some cancers are progesterone sensitive and some conditions like very large uterine fibroids respond badly to progesterone use. So here again - do your research and be wary.
---------------------------------------------------------
Will taking estrogenic herbs without supplementing progesterone lead to an increased risk of cancer? Well since most estrogenic herbs are actually lower in estrogen effect than our own estrogen - the answer would be probably not. The research is still not absolutely conclusive, but most of it says there is not increase cancer risk.
But of course that depends on the herb. Any estrogenic herb that has greater estrogen effect in the body could be more risky. There is a list of estrogenic and progesteronic herbs on the Information on Herbs thread that I posted some time back. You can see which herbs are more potent than our body's own hormones.
__________________________________________________________________________
Now here is my advice for those who have symptoms of imbalance in estrogen/progesterone. Jackie hit the nail on the head in another thread when she said that using vitex a few months prior to beginning NBE was a wise choice. Here is why that would be the case...
Progesterone is used by our body as the starting point of many other hormones - estrogen being one of those. Progesterone also activates dormant estrogen receptors. By using a progesterone enhancing herb you will balance any estrogen dominance you might have (meaning increase low progesterone levels), you will increase your body's natural estrogen and you will increase the number of estrogen receptors for that estrogen to bind too. End result = Big Honking Hooters ...lol - or perhaps a modest cup or two...
Anyway... before I yak on any further... hope this has helped,
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 5:57 PM
Waxingmoon - I thought that no phytoestrogens came even close to the strength of the pill / HRT and those come nowhere near the strength of the body's endogenous estrogen? I know there is a certain quantity (?300mg) of soy isoflavones that is supposed to be equivalent to 1 premarin tablet but in general aren't phytoestrogens considered to be weak in activity per receptor site they block if you see what I mean, which is why stalling occurs? I'm sure it was Moon that said this when I was asking about how herbs compare to BCP.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 7:58 PM
Louise,
Here is an excerpt from something I posted on the Herbs section. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/484503/thread/1169393452/last-1185267505/More+info+on+estrogen-progesterone+herbs )
The original article was talking about the potential of herbs affecting estrogen positive cancer cells. It refers to herbs that contain estrogenic potential and how they compare to our naturally created estrogen:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Any herb or spice with a score above 400 has greater estrogenic activity than estradiol.
TABLE 2
Effects of ER(estrogen receptor) binding herbs on ER (+) Breast Cancer Cells
Coumestrol 2500
Licorice 1600
Jumiper 100
Bloodroot 0
Red Clover 3000
Nutmeg 200
Mistletoe 500
White Clover 500
Dong Quai 200
Yucca 2600
Thyme 2
Damiana 200
Table 2 indicates that coumestrol, red clover, mistletoe, don quai, hops, licorice, white clover, yucca and motherwort are more estrogenic than estradiol! For people at risk for breast cancer avoiding the aforementioned herbs and spices seems prudent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The last part of that statement is the opinion of the author that quoted the study - it is not the finding of the study itself, but I think it is a valid opinion.
So what this shows is that several of the herbs that people routinely use for NBE are potentially more potent than natural estrogen. This is a cause for concern if these herbs are over used because they could cause a person to develop imbalances in regard to estrogen.
Now the table above does not talk about dosages - that is in this next table:
_____________________________________________________________________
TABLE 1
Herbs and Spices Containing ER (estrogen receptor) Binding Components
Micrograms of Estradiol Equivalents/200 cc or 2 gm Dry Herb
Soy milk 8/200cc
Yucca 0.5
Licorice 4/2 gm
Tumeric 0.5
Red Clover 3
Hops 0.5
Mandrake 3
Verbenna 0.5
Bloodroot 2
Yellow Dock 0.5
Thyme 2
Sheep sorrel 0.5
It is important to understand that just because a food, herb or spice has ER binding capability, it does not mean that it inhibits estrogen formation or acts as a natural aromatase inhibitor. In fact, the total opposite is true. In short, Table 1 indicates that the 12 listed agents have estrogenic activity at low physiological doses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, what this table is telling us that these herbs are going to have a certain number of milligrams of estrogen per 2 grams of herbs. Now remember for many of these herbs the estrogen is less potent than what our body makes. BUT!! The red clover and licorice are more potent than our body's estrogen.
I know it is all very complicated even with these charts however I have never found any other reference that can help us to know just how much hormone we might be adding to our bodies.
Red clover and licorice should be used sparingly. (pueraria mirifica (PM) is another highly estrogenic herb but was not included in the study) They are the ones that will potentially do the most disruption of natural hormone balance. They are the ones to be avoided by estrogen dominant women.
And I know the tables do not list fenugreek or fennel. That is because they are not considered very estrogenic. They work for NBE by a different means - as galactogogues.
I am of the opinion that most women do not need to increase estrogen in order to enhance breast size. A thorough review of this forum will show that those who use highly estrogenic herbs to gain size are getting temporary results and also developing very worrisome symptoms in time.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
This message has been edited by waxingmoon on Mar 6, 2008 8:00 PM
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:10 PM
If the galactogogues don't work for a woman though than would you say she should try the stronger estrogenic herbs? or no?
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:28 PM
ZINGGG !!!! :]
Jackie
(Login classyfashh)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:35 PM
ps-
Can someone tell me exactly what "PM" is.. I'm not in on all the .. abbreviations for herbs. And I searched it on the forum and nothing came up.
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:38 PM
It's Pueraria Mirfica, there's a special forum for it here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/484965/
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:39 PM
Hopeful,
I am not sure I would ever suggest someone use the more potent estrogen herbs. Faerycat had some growth using an estrogen based program and it really came back to haunt her.
Here is a link to her program page:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/482052/thread/1151055316/Faerycat%27s+Programme
Be sure to read some of the last posts she made on her program page. Yes she got initial growth with mirifica. (I think she eventually used WU and other things as well) Yes, you can see from her picture page that indeed her results seemed fantastic - BUT her methods negatively impacted her health and she lost most of her results.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Your health is far more important than a big ole bushel o' boob. Nobody is going to see those honkers if you are sick in bed. (or worse yet... tits up in the coffin... urgh)
I personally think it would be a lot worse to have gained as much as Faerycat did and then LOSE it and my health than to have never gained any boob at all.
And by the way - I am not ragging on Faerycat. I hope she is doing well and her health has returned. She was just the best example I could think of to point out what a dangerous road we could tread if we push the estrogenic herbs.
waxingmoon
Hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:43 PM
That's so true, as nonexistant as my breasts are they don't bother me soo much that I'm willing to risk for my health for them. there are days when I really wish I had bigger ones but in general I don't worry about it too much. Thanks, and I hope faery is doing well too.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 9:51 PM
Do you think I'd be ok with coumestrol baring in mind I can't take warfarin because it gives me nosebleeds?
I'm seriously considering ditching WU and trying some strong separate herbs, I feel like I need less fenugreek! Was thinking soy + red clover + hops + barley + oats + vit C, one fair size dose before bed with 15g milk protein + 15g soy protein, + 1tsp EPO / borage oil + 1tsp flax....maybe some goat's rue...+ green papaya and 1 hour super suction BB to tell it where to go!
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 10:02 PM
Louise,
If you are asking me I would say NO don't do it. Do not increase the estrogenic herbs. Read Fearycat's program page. You have a lot to lose if you do the wrong thing.
A good program page to check out for someone who gained and kept the gains and her health is Surf. She used mostly Fenugreek and Fennel along with SP. She made an impressive 5 inch gain in about 10 months. (she is my hero...lol)
Surf's success is one of the reasons I talk about the positive effects of the galactogouges. Faerycat is one of the reasons I talk about the 'horrors' of estrogenic herbs.
Take care, be wary, don't lose sight of your long term goals (healthy old age),
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 6 2008, 10:14 PM
I really feel that nothing is strong enough, even though I'm small I usually need high doses of meds when I'm sick, also I think the dianette is probably over-ruling the herbs or the metformin stopping their absorption, I've tried upping the WU dose but it hasn't really made any difference and I definitely had more feelings when I took less WU (i.e. less fenugreek) and added separate hops, soy, barley and oats. The red clover's just an idea because I did some research a while back and it seems RC and soy are similar to PM which I've been advised not to take. I really find herbs soooo annoying esp when suction is so simple!
Obviously I don't want to drop dead but I'm willing to go fairly far to look how I want, I already have a couple of different problems that may make me infertile...my main worry would be my hair dropping out, my skins' not that great at the moment and I could do with more weight loss. I've been taking WU since June and not really felt it's done much, just want to make the most of all this stuff, optimum health can wait as long as I don't get too sick to work.
MIles
(no login)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 7 2008, 9:32 PM
Hi Waxing Moon,
I was just wondering how you know that Faery Cat lost most of her growth. I couldn't find the info on her program page and it looks like realy breast tissue growth from her pics and not just swelling or something like that.
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 1:16 PM
Hi Miles,
I believe this was information she posted on this main forum instead of in her program page. I am pretty sure I am remembering it correctly. She began experiencing a lot of low thyroid symptoms and said she had lost a lot, if not all of her growth.
I will try to find those posts this weekend so I can make sure I am not mis-remembering things. I know for sure the health problems she had were pretty scary -she attributed it all to her use of phytoestrogens.
waxingmoon
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 4:37 PM
Here's one of her posts: http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1170151016/IT%27S+ALL+GOING+TITS+UP%21%21-------------HELP%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21
Hope this helps
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 5:55 PM
Thanks Hopeful,
Yes that was one of the first links she posted when she began to feel ill. She reported a loss of an inch in breast size along with other frightening symptoms. She at first thought it was candidiasis, but later after research began to believe it was the estrogen that messed her up.
She tried to recover using progesterone cream, but did not have initial good results and lost even more breast size. Here is another link to our further discussions:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/thread/1177424776/last-1177557635/CANCER+HAZARD+OF+NATURAL+PROGESTERONE+CREAM%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21%21
So, I was remembering correctly - it affected not only her health but she lost her gains as well. Beware those herbs that contain high amounts of estrogen.
(just an observation on my part... How many out there would be willing to go through all the physical illness that Faerycat went through???
Would you be willing to be seriously ill if you got to keep your increased breast size??? How much does having larger breasts really mean to you??? Is it more important than your health??
It is just food for though - and a warning about letting our obsessions for bigger breasts out way our desire for good health.)
Take care everyone,
waxingmoon
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 8 2008, 8:28 PM
I would have to consider whether I could afford a lot of time off work because I have my own company so I wouldn't get paid, but there isn't much I wouldn't go for to have the figure I want after. Obviously it's no good if I've gone bald or something but to be ill and recover and look better after I could live with. I've had quite a lot of health problems already so maybe I'm less fussy.
Miles
(no login)
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 9 2008, 12:42 AM
Thanks Waxing Moon and Hopeful! That's good information to know.
I've now quit the estrogenic herbs I had been using for the last 9 months (had grown a bit, then lost it all) and am using progesterone cream the second half of my cycle. I will begin Vitex with my next cycle. It may be my imagination, or wishfull thinking, but it would appear that the cellulite is already better and so is the bloating! We'll see. I'll keep you posted.
Miles
hopeful88
(Login Hopeful88)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Is Progesterone needed?
March 10 2008, 5:20 AM
Oh as much as I want to grow some boobs finally I would never risk my health I want a baby so badly in a few years! That sounds so awful and old fashioned but it's true I can't help my craving for a baby...