30-01-2016, 13:40
beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009 at 2:57 AM mommcafee (Login mommcafee)
ok the deal with SP is the beta-sitosterol(not stanol), I have seen that some women are not using SP because it causes weight gain..
Pumpkin seed and pygeum africanum is used in its place, in hopes to get the SP benefit without the weight gain...
Trouble is beta sitosterol is still the 'active ingredient' so to speak, so does the pumpkin seed or other substitutes really help without weight gain?
How so???
mommcafee
(Login mommcafee)
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 3:15 AM
ok so beta sitosterol is closely related plant form of cholesterol, its poorly absorbed, and somehow binds and lowers cholesterol. isnt this bad? dont we need the cholesterol to convert to hormones?
also some info states that the sterolin reduces cytokine reactions of inflammation to improve BPH.
So how does this block DHT? and why does SP cause weight gain?
Help! Reasearching as I go here, back in a bit. Jump in and straighten my path at anytime please!
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 4:41 AM
Hi Mommcafee,
I love your questions because they make me seek out information I would not normally check into.
Here is what I can tell you about the herbs commonly used in NBE as anti-androgens.
------------------------------------
Saw Palmetto
Works because it inhibits the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. This enzyme converts testosterone into more potent dihydrotestosterone (DHT) - so Saw Palmetto does not lower every kind of testosterone - it just keep the testosterone from becoming more potent. You can find my references to this information here:
from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11337315
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha_reductase
----------------------------------------
Pygeum africanum
It works differently than Saw Palmetto. It has N-butylbenzenesulfonamide. This substance has a high affinity to the androgen receptors. That means it will bind to them and keep testosterone from binding. It also has some affinity for progesterone receptors which would make it a lousy choice for those with estrogen dominance. The source for this information came from here:
http://www.psa-rising.com/blog/2006/06/pygeum-a-has-anti-androgen-effect/
--------------------------------------
Pumpkin seed oil
I did not find as much conclusive information regarding its method of action. It has phytosterins which gave a structural relationship to some bodily substances involved in androgen metabolism. The information seems to be saying it works somewhat like the Pygeum - blocks the receptors from the more potent testosterone.
-------------------------------------
Now about whether lowering cholesterol is a bad thing. The effect of pumpkin seed oil is to cause a lowering of LDL cholesterol - the 'bad' cholesterol. This is because pumpkin seed oil has Omega 6 fatty acid. This is a very good thing for our cholesterol levels. It promotes the formation of HDL cholesterol - the 'good' cholesterol. HDL cholesterol is responsible for taking cholesterol molecules out of our blood stream and transporting them to the liver where we manufacture thinks like hormones with them.
So, that is what I can tell you with just a little bit of looking. Please let me know if you find any other interesting things. If you can, post a link to some of the sites you are using.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
mommcafee
(Login mommcafee)
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 5:04 AM
ok now, but we decided omega 6 wasnt good for the american diet without also supplementing a healthy dose of omega 3, so in this effect it is like using EPO and borage, right?
Or there's a lot of BE persons getting quite a bit of omega 6, 1 if they are american dieteers, then throw in some EPO/starflower/borage, any others? Lets now add some pumpkin seed with omega 6. wow.
anyhoo, any of these you think would be good for BE and not increase likelihood of weight gain?
according to waihaika the SP helps redirect the body into making estrogen from androgen and decreases the formation of testosterone? if Im gettin this right? so we dont want to block androgen, we want to keep it and direct it to estrogen? which makes pygeum a bad choice correct?
so what can be used to replace fatty SP? I saw something about nettle root, I dont know if this affects the conversion of androgen or inhibits it altogether?Hmmm.
Do we even know what is in SP specifically that causes the weight gain? to ensure we dont run into the same problem with other similar acting herbs?
Whew!Did you get all that?LOL!
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 5:51 AM
Hi Mommcafee,
I agree that if we use any Omega 6 fatty acids we need to use Omega 3 to balance it. We really should take a look at all the supplements we take and make sure we are not creating an overkill.
EPO and Borage are taken for the Omega 6 itself which helps in hormone production so if you take Pumpkin seed oil then there is less need for Borage/EPO.
I am not sure what is the mechanism behind the weight gain in Saw Palmetto. I have yet to find a reference specifically to it. All I have run across is that there have been 'reports' of weight gain while using it. Not very helpful to those of us wanting to know WHY.
My theory is that it stimulates appetite. It has been used traditionally to help those who were not thriving to 'fatten up' so to speak. I believe I read one reference that stated Native Americans started using it because they noticed the animals that fed on it were plush and healthy. Sterols do seem to create a 'quest for food' in those that take them. It could be as simple as that.
However as far as the use of Saw Palmetto - I don't think it is necessary for NBE except in those who suffer from excess androgens. If you want to promote estrogen there are other ways to do it.
But I also must say that those who indulge in phytoestrogens also often notice weight gain. Estrogen likes fat - it likes to pack it on and soften us up. The right amount and we have what we want - too much and we end up as the incredible pear shaped woman.
What most of us want is riding a fine line between hormone structures. We want the big boobs and a lean body - an unlikely combination to be sure. Hormone have archtypical presentations in physical form. The arch-type of testosterone is Hercules. The arch-type of estrogen is the big breasted and big hipped fertility goddess. The arch-type of progesterone is a pregnant woman (progesterone levels rise by about 300% during pregnancy)(and no... no... I am not saying using progesterone will make you pregnant... lol... not that it isn't used in fertility treatments... but it alone will not cause pregnancy... let me try and head off some wild NBE rumor) (not that all this addendum is going to prevent that kind of wildfire rumor... nobody reads all the stuff I post... this stuff just languishes on the page and later on I read some post where someone is saying 'But I heard that progesterone would make you pregnant')(... not that the idea of nobody reading this has ever stopped me from going on and on.... nooooooo......)
Okay, I have officially digressed. Time to put me to bed.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 6:31 AM
... thoroughly enjoying this conversation! ...
The only consideration I would add is that possibly the time of year had some bearing on weight gain. Perhaps saw palmetto did its job in keeping testosterone freed up, but because of the time of year the weight gain was undesired because of the placement of estrogenic fat on places other than the breasts. Add to that the fact that the more receptors there are in an area (like an enlarged stomach for example), the more phytoestrogens they are going to attract, therefore acceleration of the fat accumulation of that part of the body in relation to the others. Maybe the dosage of saw palmetto is seasonal and should be lowered, but not eliminated, in the less effective times of the year.
August 17 2009 at 2:57 AM mommcafee (Login mommcafee)
ok the deal with SP is the beta-sitosterol(not stanol), I have seen that some women are not using SP because it causes weight gain..
Pumpkin seed and pygeum africanum is used in its place, in hopes to get the SP benefit without the weight gain...
Trouble is beta sitosterol is still the 'active ingredient' so to speak, so does the pumpkin seed or other substitutes really help without weight gain?
How so???
mommcafee
(Login mommcafee)
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 3:15 AM
ok so beta sitosterol is closely related plant form of cholesterol, its poorly absorbed, and somehow binds and lowers cholesterol. isnt this bad? dont we need the cholesterol to convert to hormones?
also some info states that the sterolin reduces cytokine reactions of inflammation to improve BPH.
So how does this block DHT? and why does SP cause weight gain?
Help! Reasearching as I go here, back in a bit. Jump in and straighten my path at anytime please!
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 4:41 AM
Hi Mommcafee,
I love your questions because they make me seek out information I would not normally check into.
Here is what I can tell you about the herbs commonly used in NBE as anti-androgens.
------------------------------------
Saw Palmetto
Works because it inhibits the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. This enzyme converts testosterone into more potent dihydrotestosterone (DHT) - so Saw Palmetto does not lower every kind of testosterone - it just keep the testosterone from becoming more potent. You can find my references to this information here:
from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11337315
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha_reductase
----------------------------------------
Pygeum africanum
It works differently than Saw Palmetto. It has N-butylbenzenesulfonamide. This substance has a high affinity to the androgen receptors. That means it will bind to them and keep testosterone from binding. It also has some affinity for progesterone receptors which would make it a lousy choice for those with estrogen dominance. The source for this information came from here:
http://www.psa-rising.com/blog/2006/06/pygeum-a-has-anti-androgen-effect/
--------------------------------------
Pumpkin seed oil
I did not find as much conclusive information regarding its method of action. It has phytosterins which gave a structural relationship to some bodily substances involved in androgen metabolism. The information seems to be saying it works somewhat like the Pygeum - blocks the receptors from the more potent testosterone.
-------------------------------------
Now about whether lowering cholesterol is a bad thing. The effect of pumpkin seed oil is to cause a lowering of LDL cholesterol - the 'bad' cholesterol. This is because pumpkin seed oil has Omega 6 fatty acid. This is a very good thing for our cholesterol levels. It promotes the formation of HDL cholesterol - the 'good' cholesterol. HDL cholesterol is responsible for taking cholesterol molecules out of our blood stream and transporting them to the liver where we manufacture thinks like hormones with them.
So, that is what I can tell you with just a little bit of looking. Please let me know if you find any other interesting things. If you can, post a link to some of the sites you are using.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
mommcafee
(Login mommcafee)
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 5:04 AM
ok now, but we decided omega 6 wasnt good for the american diet without also supplementing a healthy dose of omega 3, so in this effect it is like using EPO and borage, right?
Or there's a lot of BE persons getting quite a bit of omega 6, 1 if they are american dieteers, then throw in some EPO/starflower/borage, any others? Lets now add some pumpkin seed with omega 6. wow.
anyhoo, any of these you think would be good for BE and not increase likelihood of weight gain?
according to waihaika the SP helps redirect the body into making estrogen from androgen and decreases the formation of testosterone? if Im gettin this right? so we dont want to block androgen, we want to keep it and direct it to estrogen? which makes pygeum a bad choice correct?
so what can be used to replace fatty SP? I saw something about nettle root, I dont know if this affects the conversion of androgen or inhibits it altogether?Hmmm.
Do we even know what is in SP specifically that causes the weight gain? to ensure we dont run into the same problem with other similar acting herbs?
Whew!Did you get all that?LOL!
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 5:51 AM
Hi Mommcafee,
I agree that if we use any Omega 6 fatty acids we need to use Omega 3 to balance it. We really should take a look at all the supplements we take and make sure we are not creating an overkill.
EPO and Borage are taken for the Omega 6 itself which helps in hormone production so if you take Pumpkin seed oil then there is less need for Borage/EPO.
I am not sure what is the mechanism behind the weight gain in Saw Palmetto. I have yet to find a reference specifically to it. All I have run across is that there have been 'reports' of weight gain while using it. Not very helpful to those of us wanting to know WHY.
My theory is that it stimulates appetite. It has been used traditionally to help those who were not thriving to 'fatten up' so to speak. I believe I read one reference that stated Native Americans started using it because they noticed the animals that fed on it were plush and healthy. Sterols do seem to create a 'quest for food' in those that take them. It could be as simple as that.
However as far as the use of Saw Palmetto - I don't think it is necessary for NBE except in those who suffer from excess androgens. If you want to promote estrogen there are other ways to do it.
But I also must say that those who indulge in phytoestrogens also often notice weight gain. Estrogen likes fat - it likes to pack it on and soften us up. The right amount and we have what we want - too much and we end up as the incredible pear shaped woman.
What most of us want is riding a fine line between hormone structures. We want the big boobs and a lean body - an unlikely combination to be sure. Hormone have archtypical presentations in physical form. The arch-type of testosterone is Hercules. The arch-type of estrogen is the big breasted and big hipped fertility goddess. The arch-type of progesterone is a pregnant woman (progesterone levels rise by about 300% during pregnancy)(and no... no... I am not saying using progesterone will make you pregnant... lol... not that it isn't used in fertility treatments... but it alone will not cause pregnancy... let me try and head off some wild NBE rumor) (not that all this addendum is going to prevent that kind of wildfire rumor... nobody reads all the stuff I post... this stuff just languishes on the page and later on I read some post where someone is saying 'But I heard that progesterone would make you pregnant')(... not that the idea of nobody reading this has ever stopped me from going on and on.... nooooooo......)
Okay, I have officially digressed. Time to put me to bed.
Best wishes,
waxingmoon
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: beta sitosterol ---seniors/anybody?
August 17 2009, 6:31 AM
... thoroughly enjoying this conversation! ...
The only consideration I would add is that possibly the time of year had some bearing on weight gain. Perhaps saw palmetto did its job in keeping testosterone freed up, but because of the time of year the weight gain was undesired because of the placement of estrogenic fat on places other than the breasts. Add to that the fact that the more receptors there are in an area (like an enlarged stomach for example), the more phytoestrogens they are going to attract, therefore acceleration of the fat accumulation of that part of the body in relation to the others. Maybe the dosage of saw palmetto is seasonal and should be lowered, but not eliminated, in the less effective times of the year.