30-01-2016, 13:26
Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006 at 5:17 AM wsdm (Login wsdm)
Doing a little bit of research before heading to bed. Thought to share some of my findings
We all know that estrogen is the key to NBE. From what I am reading from various authors INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS OR ITS EFFECT is the key to breast growth
Mk3 on another post was kind enough to post a list of foods that enhance and inhibit NBE
Wanted to add that I found a list of foods that interfere with estrogen by deactivating it:
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Cabbage
brussel sprouts
kale
collards
rhutabaga
bok choy
watercress
arugula
mustard and mustard greens
horseradish
radishes
all these foods contain compounds called indoles. Indoles reduce the bioavailability of estrogen.
Will post more estrogen increasing methods.
wsdm
Jennelle
(Login Jenneelle)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:28 PM
Anything information you find on this will be welcome here. I look forward to anything else you can post.
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:35 PM
Diddooooooo!!! LOL
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:57 PM
This is a bummer though. I just planted all this stuff in my garden, And now I can't eat any of it.
Lov's Lisaxxxx
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 2:33 AM
Lisa you are so funny...
more on increasing your own levels of Estrogen...
PABA - para-aminobenzoic acid : Safely INCREASES ESTROGEN LEVELS by reducing its breakdown
PABA is a type of B vitamin
PABA can cause/help
infertile women become pregnant
increase libido
increase vaginal lubrication
accelerate puberty in girls entering puberty.
acts as coenzyme in the breakdown and utilization of proteins
change hair from gray to previous color if graying was caused by stress or nutritional deficiency
PABA is found in whole grains, wheat germ, eggs, kidney, liver, mushrooms, spinach and unsulphered blackstrap molasses
Like all tablets PABA in tablet form should be taken in moderation, but you cant overdose on PABA if gained through incorporating more of the above foods into your diet.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 2:51 AM
some resources to check out on PABA
http://www.vitaminevi.com/Supp/PABA.htm
http://www.swedish.org/110930.cfm
http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/paba.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002518.htm
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Estrogen and Sex
May 11 2006, 2:55 AM
According to the physiology of female sexual arousal, one will find that,
Women who have sex frequently have higher estrogen levels than women who are celibate and women who are celibate have higher estrogen levels than women who have sex sporadically,
This is not a green light for promiscuity however if some of us are in a committed relationship, more sex may help!
Anonymous
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
INCREASING ESTROGEN DOES NOT INCREASE CHANES OF BREAST GROWTH
May 11 2006, 5:37 AM
when i first started researching NBE i couldnt believe that herbs can do anything to cause breasts to grow so the first thing i did was research natural hormones and the first hormone i researched was estrogens. everything i had known about the female body and how hormones worked stem from the knowledge that estrogen controlled alot of the female charateristics.i was somewhat wrong about that as i will later explain.
now i first looked into herbs and estrogenic properties and i was surprised to learn quite a large number of herbs contain some form of isoflavin but at 1000-100000 times weaker then the estrogens that the body produces naturally. so HOW DO THESE HERB CAUSE NBE IF THEY ARE SO WEAK? so i looked into prescription hormones and estradiol (the strongst estrogen the body produces and the one most responsible for breast growth). i did some searching on older nbe forums for topics about anyone trying estradiol using it and about 3 or 4 women tried it in cream from. all had nasty and scary side effect and not 1 grew.that was a surpise. all the members had big hopes that the strogest estrogen the body natually produces wont let us down becuase it is the one hormone known to give breasts its perminant breast size. i checked out some stats of side effects from using estradiol and breast enlargements ranks about less then 20% of women who use it. and these are starts are from women who have a right to use estradiol cause they have a docs permission to use it for hormonal problems. the women on the nbe forum that used it were using the estradiol cream at high dosages, without a prescription and they were too young and they didnt need it. the group that actually has a better chance of growthing with estradiol are teens because they have high levels of growth hormone, menopausal women who use the hormone to with a doc's prescription and men.the main thing about these groups have in common are that they all start off with a fairly low or unstable levels of estrogen. now for women with normal cycles, growing with estrogen is far less likely and you have a huge chance of bad side effect and they increase their cancer risks.
herbs are strange. they dont act like estradiol but rather they compete with it for recepors and being less potent they lower the body's overall estrogen activity.thats in women with a fairly normal cycle. now its unclear weither phytoestrogens are responsible for NBE. fennel and fenugreek, are all very popular NBE herbs and they are not strong phytoestrogens but actually stimulate prolactin. it seems that most of the women with success with herbs were using at least these herbs as well as doing massages which stimulate prolactin.
sunset and steph put up a list of foods that contain phytoestrogens. i wouldnt recommend supplimenting a diet with these foods cause chances are they wouldnt work on the breast or they may work again nbe. herbs like soy, red cover, licorice root, tumeric, cumin, yucca are considered some of the strongest estrogenic herbs but they are not well known for causing breast enlargement but have been known to cause other hormonal changes. caffein also can sigificantly increase a woman's estrogen level and many women drink the coffee every day and dont get breast enlargement.
now breast size has more to do with body fat disribution and body weight rather then estrogen levels. estrogen does affect body size and the smaller you are the smaller your breasts and the more fat you have the more estrogen is in the your body the larger your breast(am i confusing you.lol hopefull you will get it once i finish). increasing just estrogen levels will cause women to store fat all over the body but more likely in the bottom half rather in the top. most women who do NBE dont want to gain weight otherwise i would recommend gaining 40 pounds and let that be that. so what affect the breast (only) is actually balance. you need the right balance of hormones not more estrogen. most women already are estrogen dominant and have very high levels of estrogen from their modern lifestyles and diet. the body will over come this by down regulating the estrogen receptors so they dont act so strongly to estrogen's activity.now with down regulated receptors, adding more estrogen usually does nothing for NBE and will make some women sick. what actually will cause NBE is to balance the estrogen dominance by adding a progesterone. progesterone opposes the effects of estrogen and its the reason why breasts swell during the second half of a menstral cycle. progesterone reactivate the estrogen receptors.this is why women who take BCP with a progestin base get larger breasts. breast growth happens more to women with already large breasts (usually they have higher estrogen levels already).
my thoughts are that NBE is best caused with galactagogues with will work with the estrogen that is already in the body and direct estrogen's activity mainly on the breast. prolactin helps estrogen to store fat in the breasts rather then all over the place. also controlling androgen levels will help as well. testosterone metabolizes into estrogen so women with low testosterone have been known to grow while using DHEA. infact one of the well documented side effect of taking DHEA is breast enlargement. Other women may need to lower their testogeserone levels saw palmetto has some limited action but there are drugs like sprironolactone that controls testosterone levels and have been know to cause breast enlargement as well. Progesterone is also a big one. the only prob is getting the right dosage to cause NBE. progesterone cream has been known to cause Breast enlargement (only temp)but its not common. most women need high dosages to grow and OTC creams are usually not strong enough. growth hormone also plays a very big roll as well. with out GH estrogen, progesterone or testosterone wont do a thing to cause nbe.it doesnt even matter if you have the perfect balance. teens have a big chance of getting growth because of their rising GH levels but after puberty GH levels drop and chances of growthing growing drop. that may be why some women who take herbs may dont experience growth. it has been found that in women supplimented estrogen, if their IGF levels went up they grew but in women with no changes in their IGF level taking estrogen they didnt grow at all.
sorry about the long post. i know for a fact ive typed this stuff up before but hopefully it saves a newbee from making the mistake of stuffing their faces with carrots, colliflouwer,and soy thinking that more estrogen means more breasts.
Dont get me wrong.
EAT YOUR VEGGIES for strong healthy bodies but dont it expecting bigger breasts.hopefully what i typed here makes some sense. Phyoestrogens are more for balancing and if they do cause nbe it would be becuase they helped women get the right balance. that is actually a long shot and most woemen who take phytoestogens like red clover or soy for nbe and had success were also taking fenugreek and fennel so its hard to say what had the most effect. my money would be on fenugreek and fennel cause among most successful NBE cases at least 1 of the 2 were present and strong phyoestrogens are not as common.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 9:21 AM
So SugarQ what would you suggest for NBE that could be effective?Do you follow a routine?
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 12:50 PM
SugarQ I dont doubt that you are right. However tweeking ones diet does not hurt, there is much more information I want to post, I havent talked about
Fats
phytoestrogens,
stress
depression
smoking
but there is so much time I have in one day. I will continue to post what I have researched and hope to get the kind of feedback you just gave. I appreciate it.
I believe the problem is NBE is a personal one, that has to be tailored to ones unique physiology, I AM NOT SURE THERE IS A UNIVERSAL REMEDY you just have to know yourself and your body.
I DO BELIEVE Estrogen is the key, it is the foundation and starting point, its the hormone that triggers the growth, maintenance and health of female sexual organs and enhancing ones own natural production of estrogen in a safe and healthy way is a good option.
A galactogogue is useless if there is a deficiency in estrogen. So I am of the opinion that first things first ensure you are producing optimal levels of your own estrogen.
If you recall what I wrote increasing estrogen or increasing its EFFECT will help.
If you are supotimal increase your estrogen production, if you have optimal hormone levels try and increase its effects. I have not spoken about how to increase the effects of estrogen.
Taking estrogen if your estrogen levels are normal will not help.
However if you have suboptimal levels tweeking your diet can help.
You cannot know unless you try
I agree that ingesting, injecting or rubbing one type of synthetic hormone (estradiol) does not logically make sense, estrogen comes in a set of three and they work together in synergy, synthetic hormones have been proven time and time again to potentially cause cancer.
The goal of my posting is that I believe it is necessary to create the right conditions in our bodies to help NBE triggers to work. I believe ones diet is the key.
I will post later
Tap
(Login Tap69)
EVE MEMBERS
wsdm & SugarQ
May 11 2006, 1:38 PM
Thanks girls, for such great posts... never mind that i have to read them twice to understand them. But just for us nbe plebs - let me clarify and ask 2 questions which i should already know.
Successful NBE isn't about an overload or abundance of estrogen, but an increase if needed for balance... add to that human growth hormone and increased prolactin levels and you are doing well.
Does anything else other than massage stimulate prolatin release?
In your opinions what are best ways to get HGH going again? (I'm just on L-tyrosine for that?)
(SugarQ your looooong post helped me understand why i've done well on solid doses of Dong Quai... I must have needed a balancing agent.. does this sound right?)
oooohh another question: if you stay on Saw Palmetto when your body doesn;t need it (ie: you are at a B cup and making progress) would it hinder the process???
THANKS - LOVE THIS TECHNICAL STUFF!!!
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 5:16 PM
Hey Tap,
I'm takeing L-arginine\L-ornithine it is combined together 500mg L-A and 250mg L-O I also posted some info on this a while back in the general resorses LOL bad spelling. I take 2 a day 1 in the morning on an empty stomach and 1 a night on an empty stomach it seems to work well. I hope this help's Luv's Lisaxxxx
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 5:47 PM
What confuses me is that estrogen cannot be made in the body without progesterone. Progesterone is a precursor to estrogen. Your body makes progesterone and progesterone is transformed to estrogen....
Progesterone is made from cholesterol which leads me to my next discussion fats. Hope to get feedback on that.
But before that cause now I am excited about all this new information, I wanted to post the following to help myself and other figure out which category they fit into, unfortunately I am leaning towards the low estrogen type or rather just low hormone type, one major factor is my body fat is extremely low and I am quite slim ... my breasts have sagging and for some time I suffered from painful intercourse and vaginal dryness as well, I cant gain weight to save my life, not unless I down truckloads of food and strength train and all I am putting on is muscle and my periods are extremely light.
However since I have started to make small changes to my diet and started the massages the vaginal dryness has started to alleviate and thus some of the pain during intercourse, well waiting on breast growth!!!
Well thanks to SugarQ I see its more complicated rather more complex than targeting one particular hormone.
Imbalances of estrogen and progesterone in female:
1. Progesterone deficiency
Symptoms: Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS), insomnia, early miscarriage, painful or lumpy breast, infertility, unexplained weight gain and anxiety.
Discussion: This is the most common hormone imbalance among women of all ages.
Solution: Estrogen free diet, discontinue birth control pill and use natural progesterone cream to increase the progesterone level.
2. Estrogen deficiency
Symptoms: night sweats, mood swings, depression, hot flashes, sagging breast, vaginal dryness, osteoporosis, fibrocystic lumps, night sweats, painful intercourse and memory problem.
Discussion: This hormone imbalance is most common in menopausal women; especially with petite and/or slim women.
Solution: Progesterone is a biochemical precursor to estrogen. Progesterone cream alone is sufficient to restore estrogen balance and relief of many of the symptoms. If after 3 months of progesterone cream, proper diet, nutritional supplementation of magnesium and B6 do not relive the symptoms, then low-dose natural estrogen may be considered. 2.5 mg of natural tri-estrogen cream ( 10% estrone, 10% estradiol and 80% estriol) provides the equivalent action of 0.625 conjugated estrogen such as Premarin. Herbs like black cohash have weak estrogenic effect. Isoflavone extracts and cruciferous vegetables extracts such as DIM may be considered as well.
3. Excessive estrogen:
Symptoms: bloating, rapid weight gain, heavy bleeding, migraine headache, foggy thinking, insomnia, red flush on face and breast tenderness during the first 2 weeks of menstrual cycle.
Discussion: This often comes about from excessive estrogen intake as part of a hormone replacement therapy program.
Solution: Discontinue estrogen replacement therapy that uses estrogen alone.
4. Excessive androgens (male hormones):
Symptoms: Acne, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), excessive hair on face and arm, thinning hair on the head, infertility and mid-cycle pain.
Discussion: Excessive sugar and simple carbohydrates in the diet often cause this. Excessive sugar stimulates androgen receptors on the outside of the ovary. Androgens also block the release of eggs from the follicle, causing polycystic ovary disease.
Solution: Dietary adjustment to reduce sugar and grains and proper exercise are important. Natural progesterone cream could be used to maintain hormonal balance and discontinued when symptoms are resolved. If progesterone levels rise each month during the leuteal phase of the cycle, a normal synchronal pattern of estrogen and progesterone is maintained and excessive androgen seldom occurs.
5. Estrogen dominance:
Symptoms: Combination of absolute progesterone deficiency and excess estrogen, resulting in a relative increase in estrogen in comparison to progesterone.
Common symptoms include:
� Acceleration of the aging process
� Breast tenderness
� Depression
� Fatigue
� Foggy thinking
� Headaches
� Hypoglycemia
� Memory Loss
� Osteoporosis
� PMS
� Pre-menopausal bone loss
� Thyroid dysfunction
� Uterine cancer and fibroids
� Water retention
� Fat gain around abdomen, hips and thighs
Discussion: This is the result of low estrogen but even lower progesterone. Up to 50% of western women, especially those who are obese between the ages of 40 and 50 suffer from estrogen dominance.
Solution: Reduce stress, sugar and coffee from diet. Adrenal function is normally compromised in a person with estrogen dominance. Normalization of the adrenal function should be considered first, as well as relief of stressors. Follow a natural whole food diet, application of stress reduction techniques and natural progesterone cream in physiological doses (20 mg a day).
Source: http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/progesterone.cfm
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 7:05 PM
i do believe diet is important but controling estogen levels with diet is very tricky and probably is more likely to cause unwanted side effects before it would ever cause nbe. the best diet plan ive seen is outlined in the f2f book. it makes total sense but weither it works remains to be seen. the problem with controlling estrogen levels with diet is that adding or lowering estrogen can cause or prevent growth. its very hard what will happen to different women.
on 1 nbe forum some women claim that they used high dosages of licorice root and red clover and grew while others did the same but didnt get growth until they dropped the strong phytoestrogens. there is a forum (the old NBE forum) where women mainly focused on high dosages of strong phyestrogens and the success cases havent been nearily as well as this forum. this forum has been up and running for a much shorter time then the beboard and there are far more successful cases here. the main thing is that women here dont focus on strong phytoestrogens. fenugugreek and fennel are considered estrogen but really they are not . plus women here focused more on massages a well which the old beboard forum did not. now success cases are still low on this forum but when you compare the b/a pictures that show improvment we got close to 8 or so women on this forum and only 1 on the old beboard forum. and the one woman on the beboard that did show improvment had a routine closer to what women here have.
now in deficient women more estrogen still doesnt mean bigger breasts. like is said with the prescription drug estradiol the women who do have a right to use it are estrogen deficient but breast growth cases are so low. with phytoestrogens it may help some women who are deficient but that hasnt been shown to be the case yet. stats say that most women are not estrogen deficient but rather in the normal to dominant range. even if you do have small breasts you might have normal or workable levels of estrogen already. the best way to do NBE is to just use the estrogen you got already and fiddle around with everything else. you can also add strong phyoestrogens like red clover and licorice root if you want but i wouldn't play with a diet that is high in phytoestrogens. its better to work with naturally low levels of estrogen then to try to ramp it up with herbs and possiblity prevent anything at all from happening. women can still grow with low levels of estrogen if everything else is looking good but it may just take a bit longer.
the only time estrogen causes sigificant amount of breast growth is during puberty. after that women taking estrogen will report, at most, a cup if they are lucky. most women get pains,maybe some swelling and thats it. growth with estrogen during puberty takes 3+ years but women can achieve just about any cup size. after puberty breasts will grow some when taking estrogen but eventually that stops, no matter how much you take or how long you take it for. now breast still can grow alot after puberty. during pregnancy breasts grow but only temerarily becasue of progesterone and not estrogen. the only known perminant way breast growth outside of NBE is gaining weight and storing fat (porportionatly) all over the body. in typical nbe cases involving herbs, women grow a cup or more in less then 8 months and only grow in the breast area. estrogen plays a small roll in that happening.
there are other ways to stimulate prolactin. breast pumps are a great way to stimulate estrogen levels. domperidone and reglan are prescription drugs that are known to induce lactation in men and women and guess what a common side effect is... (breast enlargment). herbs like fenugreek, fennel, goats rue,alfalfa, blessed thistle, borage, blue verbena, milk thistle stimulate prolactin and in the wonderup pill there are strong galactagogues and th pill incorperates more galactagogues at higher dosages then it does phyoestrogens.
im all for balance and eating healthy and even if a woman goes to a store and eats lots veggies and herbs with isoflavons there is very little chance that would cause breast enlargment.i dont want women to think that phyoestrogens are the same as natural estrogen. they dont work the same they dont do the same things. even natural estrogens like estradiol cant be relied upon to cause breast enlargement. so the only way i would recommend eating veggies would be for overall good health. not estrogen balance cause it would be hard to say how it will shift a womans body chemistry. if women wants to try their luck with soy licorice root, tumeric red clover then fine. its is worth a shot but still becareful. work without strong phytoestrogens first then add them in later. just dont overload with a diet full of phytoestrogens cause its a waste of time.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 7:26 PM
thanks for getting the list of symtoms for hormonal levels. that can be a great way to see where you are so you dont start off blindly guessing what you need . i would also recommend doing saliva tests if that is an afortable option as well. i though that i was estrogen deficient but later on i found out with lab tests im a estrogen dominant and deficient in progesterone. i have some interesting studies that relate hormon levels to breast size i want to share with you all. they are posted on the new beboard forum under medical related research. they help to clarify the whole balance thing s bit better and hows what balances are needed for breast size changes.
http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1141150957
http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1070212047
http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1070495103
its interesting to see how all the hormones are realated. some are precursors to others and some affect the inversly or directly the levels of others. all the hormones are related to each other in some way which hammers home the idea of balance. http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroidpathway/steroidpathway.htm. cortisol even can somehow affect breast size if its deficient. so things do get complicated very fast. but a typical NBE routine with herbs should be good enough for many women. if not then we got a big prob tying to figure out whats out of whack.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 12 2006, 11:53 PM
Thanks for the info SugarQ will take some time to read it through. Fortunate for me I am willing to and want to gain weight. I have an excellent frame and I am 125 pounds which is the minimum weight I can be for my height to be considered normal and healthy. I am willing to go up to 150 pounds though, not a big fan of being slim, I honestly think it is healthier and sexier to have a bit of weight (and curves). Hopefully I can have the right regimen together so my weight gain can primarily go to my breasts.
Anonymous
(Login rkai93)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 13 2006, 1:21 AM
so...i'm confused...In reading all the symptoms of imbalances...it strikes me that i am fairly balanced.....not deficient or dominant in anything
what's a balanced girl to do for NBE? i'm 35, 5'3" and about 107-110 lbs. breast size ranges from 32C, to 34C
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
wsdm
May 13 2006, 4:58 PM
WOW it sounds like we have the same problem wsdm same symptoms. I can eat and eat and not gain a pound. This is very interesting thanks so much for sharing. Sounds like you and hoEB make a good team you both are very intellegent and full of good info. take care Lisaxxxx
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
April 24 2007, 11:16 PM
This makes a lot of sense to me. Its kind of a hard read though!
It sounds like SugarQ is saying that balance and galactologues work for NBE, NOT just phytoestrogens.
Does that sound right?
Linz
(no login)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
April 25 2007, 7:13 AM
Good work snowflake!!
So is there any point to phytoestrogens?
Certainly explains why wonderup seems to be successful
May 10 2006 at 5:17 AM wsdm (Login wsdm)
Doing a little bit of research before heading to bed. Thought to share some of my findings
We all know that estrogen is the key to NBE. From what I am reading from various authors INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS OR ITS EFFECT is the key to breast growth
Mk3 on another post was kind enough to post a list of foods that enhance and inhibit NBE
Wanted to add that I found a list of foods that interfere with estrogen by deactivating it:
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Cabbage
brussel sprouts
kale
collards
rhutabaga
bok choy
watercress
arugula
mustard and mustard greens
horseradish
radishes
all these foods contain compounds called indoles. Indoles reduce the bioavailability of estrogen.
Will post more estrogen increasing methods.
wsdm
Jennelle
(Login Jenneelle)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:28 PM
Anything information you find on this will be welcome here. I look forward to anything else you can post.
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:35 PM
Diddooooooo!!! LOL
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 10 2006, 11:57 PM
This is a bummer though. I just planted all this stuff in my garden, And now I can't eat any of it.
Lov's Lisaxxxxwsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 2:33 AM
Lisa you are so funny...
more on increasing your own levels of Estrogen...
PABA - para-aminobenzoic acid : Safely INCREASES ESTROGEN LEVELS by reducing its breakdown
PABA is a type of B vitamin
PABA can cause/help
infertile women become pregnant
increase libido
increase vaginal lubrication
accelerate puberty in girls entering puberty.
acts as coenzyme in the breakdown and utilization of proteins
change hair from gray to previous color if graying was caused by stress or nutritional deficiency
PABA is found in whole grains, wheat germ, eggs, kidney, liver, mushrooms, spinach and unsulphered blackstrap molasses
Like all tablets PABA in tablet form should be taken in moderation, but you cant overdose on PABA if gained through incorporating more of the above foods into your diet.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 2:51 AM
some resources to check out on PABA
http://www.vitaminevi.com/Supp/PABA.htm
http://www.swedish.org/110930.cfm
http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/paba.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002518.htm
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Estrogen and Sex
May 11 2006, 2:55 AM
According to the physiology of female sexual arousal, one will find that,
Women who have sex frequently have higher estrogen levels than women who are celibate and women who are celibate have higher estrogen levels than women who have sex sporadically,
This is not a green light for promiscuity however if some of us are in a committed relationship, more sex may help!
Anonymous
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
INCREASING ESTROGEN DOES NOT INCREASE CHANES OF BREAST GROWTH
May 11 2006, 5:37 AM
when i first started researching NBE i couldnt believe that herbs can do anything to cause breasts to grow so the first thing i did was research natural hormones and the first hormone i researched was estrogens. everything i had known about the female body and how hormones worked stem from the knowledge that estrogen controlled alot of the female charateristics.i was somewhat wrong about that as i will later explain.
now i first looked into herbs and estrogenic properties and i was surprised to learn quite a large number of herbs contain some form of isoflavin but at 1000-100000 times weaker then the estrogens that the body produces naturally. so HOW DO THESE HERB CAUSE NBE IF THEY ARE SO WEAK? so i looked into prescription hormones and estradiol (the strongst estrogen the body produces and the one most responsible for breast growth). i did some searching on older nbe forums for topics about anyone trying estradiol using it and about 3 or 4 women tried it in cream from. all had nasty and scary side effect and not 1 grew.that was a surpise. all the members had big hopes that the strogest estrogen the body natually produces wont let us down becuase it is the one hormone known to give breasts its perminant breast size. i checked out some stats of side effects from using estradiol and breast enlargements ranks about less then 20% of women who use it. and these are starts are from women who have a right to use estradiol cause they have a docs permission to use it for hormonal problems. the women on the nbe forum that used it were using the estradiol cream at high dosages, without a prescription and they were too young and they didnt need it. the group that actually has a better chance of growthing with estradiol are teens because they have high levels of growth hormone, menopausal women who use the hormone to with a doc's prescription and men.the main thing about these groups have in common are that they all start off with a fairly low or unstable levels of estrogen. now for women with normal cycles, growing with estrogen is far less likely and you have a huge chance of bad side effect and they increase their cancer risks.
herbs are strange. they dont act like estradiol but rather they compete with it for recepors and being less potent they lower the body's overall estrogen activity.thats in women with a fairly normal cycle. now its unclear weither phytoestrogens are responsible for NBE. fennel and fenugreek, are all very popular NBE herbs and they are not strong phytoestrogens but actually stimulate prolactin. it seems that most of the women with success with herbs were using at least these herbs as well as doing massages which stimulate prolactin.
sunset and steph put up a list of foods that contain phytoestrogens. i wouldnt recommend supplimenting a diet with these foods cause chances are they wouldnt work on the breast or they may work again nbe. herbs like soy, red cover, licorice root, tumeric, cumin, yucca are considered some of the strongest estrogenic herbs but they are not well known for causing breast enlargement but have been known to cause other hormonal changes. caffein also can sigificantly increase a woman's estrogen level and many women drink the coffee every day and dont get breast enlargement.
now breast size has more to do with body fat disribution and body weight rather then estrogen levels. estrogen does affect body size and the smaller you are the smaller your breasts and the more fat you have the more estrogen is in the your body the larger your breast(am i confusing you.lol hopefull you will get it once i finish). increasing just estrogen levels will cause women to store fat all over the body but more likely in the bottom half rather in the top. most women who do NBE dont want to gain weight otherwise i would recommend gaining 40 pounds and let that be that. so what affect the breast (only) is actually balance. you need the right balance of hormones not more estrogen. most women already are estrogen dominant and have very high levels of estrogen from their modern lifestyles and diet. the body will over come this by down regulating the estrogen receptors so they dont act so strongly to estrogen's activity.now with down regulated receptors, adding more estrogen usually does nothing for NBE and will make some women sick. what actually will cause NBE is to balance the estrogen dominance by adding a progesterone. progesterone opposes the effects of estrogen and its the reason why breasts swell during the second half of a menstral cycle. progesterone reactivate the estrogen receptors.this is why women who take BCP with a progestin base get larger breasts. breast growth happens more to women with already large breasts (usually they have higher estrogen levels already).
my thoughts are that NBE is best caused with galactagogues with will work with the estrogen that is already in the body and direct estrogen's activity mainly on the breast. prolactin helps estrogen to store fat in the breasts rather then all over the place. also controlling androgen levels will help as well. testosterone metabolizes into estrogen so women with low testosterone have been known to grow while using DHEA. infact one of the well documented side effect of taking DHEA is breast enlargement. Other women may need to lower their testogeserone levels saw palmetto has some limited action but there are drugs like sprironolactone that controls testosterone levels and have been know to cause breast enlargement as well. Progesterone is also a big one. the only prob is getting the right dosage to cause NBE. progesterone cream has been known to cause Breast enlargement (only temp)but its not common. most women need high dosages to grow and OTC creams are usually not strong enough. growth hormone also plays a very big roll as well. with out GH estrogen, progesterone or testosterone wont do a thing to cause nbe.it doesnt even matter if you have the perfect balance. teens have a big chance of getting growth because of their rising GH levels but after puberty GH levels drop and chances of growthing growing drop. that may be why some women who take herbs may dont experience growth. it has been found that in women supplimented estrogen, if their IGF levels went up they grew but in women with no changes in their IGF level taking estrogen they didnt grow at all.
sorry about the long post. i know for a fact ive typed this stuff up before but hopefully it saves a newbee from making the mistake of stuffing their faces with carrots, colliflouwer,and soy thinking that more estrogen means more breasts.
Dont get me wrong.
EAT YOUR VEGGIES for strong healthy bodies but dont it expecting bigger breasts.hopefully what i typed here makes some sense. Phyoestrogens are more for balancing and if they do cause nbe it would be becuase they helped women get the right balance. that is actually a long shot and most woemen who take phytoestogens like red clover or soy for nbe and had success were also taking fenugreek and fennel so its hard to say what had the most effect. my money would be on fenugreek and fennel cause among most successful NBE cases at least 1 of the 2 were present and strong phyoestrogens are not as common.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 9:21 AM
So SugarQ what would you suggest for NBE that could be effective?Do you follow a routine?
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 12:50 PM
SugarQ I dont doubt that you are right. However tweeking ones diet does not hurt, there is much more information I want to post, I havent talked about
Fats
phytoestrogens,
stress
depression
smoking
but there is so much time I have in one day. I will continue to post what I have researched and hope to get the kind of feedback you just gave. I appreciate it.
I believe the problem is NBE is a personal one, that has to be tailored to ones unique physiology, I AM NOT SURE THERE IS A UNIVERSAL REMEDY you just have to know yourself and your body.
I DO BELIEVE Estrogen is the key, it is the foundation and starting point, its the hormone that triggers the growth, maintenance and health of female sexual organs and enhancing ones own natural production of estrogen in a safe and healthy way is a good option.
A galactogogue is useless if there is a deficiency in estrogen. So I am of the opinion that first things first ensure you are producing optimal levels of your own estrogen.
If you recall what I wrote increasing estrogen or increasing its EFFECT will help.
If you are supotimal increase your estrogen production, if you have optimal hormone levels try and increase its effects. I have not spoken about how to increase the effects of estrogen.
Taking estrogen if your estrogen levels are normal will not help.
However if you have suboptimal levels tweeking your diet can help.
You cannot know unless you try
I agree that ingesting, injecting or rubbing one type of synthetic hormone (estradiol) does not logically make sense, estrogen comes in a set of three and they work together in synergy, synthetic hormones have been proven time and time again to potentially cause cancer.
The goal of my posting is that I believe it is necessary to create the right conditions in our bodies to help NBE triggers to work. I believe ones diet is the key.
I will post later
Tap
(Login Tap69)
EVE MEMBERS
wsdm & SugarQ
May 11 2006, 1:38 PM
Thanks girls, for such great posts... never mind that i have to read them twice to understand them. But just for us nbe plebs - let me clarify and ask 2 questions which i should already know.
Successful NBE isn't about an overload or abundance of estrogen, but an increase if needed for balance... add to that human growth hormone and increased prolactin levels and you are doing well.
Does anything else other than massage stimulate prolatin release?
In your opinions what are best ways to get HGH going again? (I'm just on L-tyrosine for that?)
(SugarQ your looooong post helped me understand why i've done well on solid doses of Dong Quai... I must have needed a balancing agent.. does this sound right?)
oooohh another question: if you stay on Saw Palmetto when your body doesn;t need it (ie: you are at a B cup and making progress) would it hinder the process???
THANKS - LOVE THIS TECHNICAL STUFF!!!
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 5:16 PM
Hey Tap,
I'm takeing L-arginine\L-ornithine it is combined together 500mg L-A and 250mg L-O I also posted some info on this a while back in the general resorses LOL bad spelling. I take 2 a day 1 in the morning on an empty stomach and 1 a night on an empty stomach it seems to work well. I hope this help's Luv's Lisaxxxx
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 5:47 PM
What confuses me is that estrogen cannot be made in the body without progesterone. Progesterone is a precursor to estrogen. Your body makes progesterone and progesterone is transformed to estrogen....
Progesterone is made from cholesterol which leads me to my next discussion fats. Hope to get feedback on that.
But before that cause now I am excited about all this new information, I wanted to post the following to help myself and other figure out which category they fit into, unfortunately I am leaning towards the low estrogen type or rather just low hormone type, one major factor is my body fat is extremely low and I am quite slim ... my breasts have sagging and for some time I suffered from painful intercourse and vaginal dryness as well, I cant gain weight to save my life, not unless I down truckloads of food and strength train and all I am putting on is muscle and my periods are extremely light.
However since I have started to make small changes to my diet and started the massages the vaginal dryness has started to alleviate and thus some of the pain during intercourse, well waiting on breast growth!!!
Well thanks to SugarQ I see its more complicated rather more complex than targeting one particular hormone.
Imbalances of estrogen and progesterone in female:
1. Progesterone deficiency
Symptoms: Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS), insomnia, early miscarriage, painful or lumpy breast, infertility, unexplained weight gain and anxiety.
Discussion: This is the most common hormone imbalance among women of all ages.
Solution: Estrogen free diet, discontinue birth control pill and use natural progesterone cream to increase the progesterone level.
2. Estrogen deficiency
Symptoms: night sweats, mood swings, depression, hot flashes, sagging breast, vaginal dryness, osteoporosis, fibrocystic lumps, night sweats, painful intercourse and memory problem.
Discussion: This hormone imbalance is most common in menopausal women; especially with petite and/or slim women.
Solution: Progesterone is a biochemical precursor to estrogen. Progesterone cream alone is sufficient to restore estrogen balance and relief of many of the symptoms. If after 3 months of progesterone cream, proper diet, nutritional supplementation of magnesium and B6 do not relive the symptoms, then low-dose natural estrogen may be considered. 2.5 mg of natural tri-estrogen cream ( 10% estrone, 10% estradiol and 80% estriol) provides the equivalent action of 0.625 conjugated estrogen such as Premarin. Herbs like black cohash have weak estrogenic effect. Isoflavone extracts and cruciferous vegetables extracts such as DIM may be considered as well.
3. Excessive estrogen:
Symptoms: bloating, rapid weight gain, heavy bleeding, migraine headache, foggy thinking, insomnia, red flush on face and breast tenderness during the first 2 weeks of menstrual cycle.
Discussion: This often comes about from excessive estrogen intake as part of a hormone replacement therapy program.
Solution: Discontinue estrogen replacement therapy that uses estrogen alone.
4. Excessive androgens (male hormones):
Symptoms: Acne, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), excessive hair on face and arm, thinning hair on the head, infertility and mid-cycle pain.
Discussion: Excessive sugar and simple carbohydrates in the diet often cause this. Excessive sugar stimulates androgen receptors on the outside of the ovary. Androgens also block the release of eggs from the follicle, causing polycystic ovary disease.
Solution: Dietary adjustment to reduce sugar and grains and proper exercise are important. Natural progesterone cream could be used to maintain hormonal balance and discontinued when symptoms are resolved. If progesterone levels rise each month during the leuteal phase of the cycle, a normal synchronal pattern of estrogen and progesterone is maintained and excessive androgen seldom occurs.
5. Estrogen dominance:
Symptoms: Combination of absolute progesterone deficiency and excess estrogen, resulting in a relative increase in estrogen in comparison to progesterone.
Common symptoms include:
� Acceleration of the aging process
� Breast tenderness
� Depression
� Fatigue
� Foggy thinking
� Headaches
� Hypoglycemia
� Memory Loss
� Osteoporosis
� PMS
� Pre-menopausal bone loss
� Thyroid dysfunction
� Uterine cancer and fibroids
� Water retention
� Fat gain around abdomen, hips and thighs
Discussion: This is the result of low estrogen but even lower progesterone. Up to 50% of western women, especially those who are obese between the ages of 40 and 50 suffer from estrogen dominance.
Solution: Reduce stress, sugar and coffee from diet. Adrenal function is normally compromised in a person with estrogen dominance. Normalization of the adrenal function should be considered first, as well as relief of stressors. Follow a natural whole food diet, application of stress reduction techniques and natural progesterone cream in physiological doses (20 mg a day).
Source: http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/progesterone.cfm
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 7:05 PM
i do believe diet is important but controling estogen levels with diet is very tricky and probably is more likely to cause unwanted side effects before it would ever cause nbe. the best diet plan ive seen is outlined in the f2f book. it makes total sense but weither it works remains to be seen. the problem with controlling estrogen levels with diet is that adding or lowering estrogen can cause or prevent growth. its very hard what will happen to different women.
on 1 nbe forum some women claim that they used high dosages of licorice root and red clover and grew while others did the same but didnt get growth until they dropped the strong phytoestrogens. there is a forum (the old NBE forum) where women mainly focused on high dosages of strong phyestrogens and the success cases havent been nearily as well as this forum. this forum has been up and running for a much shorter time then the beboard and there are far more successful cases here. the main thing is that women here dont focus on strong phytoestrogens. fenugugreek and fennel are considered estrogen but really they are not . plus women here focused more on massages a well which the old beboard forum did not. now success cases are still low on this forum but when you compare the b/a pictures that show improvment we got close to 8 or so women on this forum and only 1 on the old beboard forum. and the one woman on the beboard that did show improvment had a routine closer to what women here have.
now in deficient women more estrogen still doesnt mean bigger breasts. like is said with the prescription drug estradiol the women who do have a right to use it are estrogen deficient but breast growth cases are so low. with phytoestrogens it may help some women who are deficient but that hasnt been shown to be the case yet. stats say that most women are not estrogen deficient but rather in the normal to dominant range. even if you do have small breasts you might have normal or workable levels of estrogen already. the best way to do NBE is to just use the estrogen you got already and fiddle around with everything else. you can also add strong phyoestrogens like red clover and licorice root if you want but i wouldn't play with a diet that is high in phytoestrogens. its better to work with naturally low levels of estrogen then to try to ramp it up with herbs and possiblity prevent anything at all from happening. women can still grow with low levels of estrogen if everything else is looking good but it may just take a bit longer.
the only time estrogen causes sigificant amount of breast growth is during puberty. after that women taking estrogen will report, at most, a cup if they are lucky. most women get pains,maybe some swelling and thats it. growth with estrogen during puberty takes 3+ years but women can achieve just about any cup size. after puberty breasts will grow some when taking estrogen but eventually that stops, no matter how much you take or how long you take it for. now breast still can grow alot after puberty. during pregnancy breasts grow but only temerarily becasue of progesterone and not estrogen. the only known perminant way breast growth outside of NBE is gaining weight and storing fat (porportionatly) all over the body. in typical nbe cases involving herbs, women grow a cup or more in less then 8 months and only grow in the breast area. estrogen plays a small roll in that happening.
there are other ways to stimulate prolactin. breast pumps are a great way to stimulate estrogen levels. domperidone and reglan are prescription drugs that are known to induce lactation in men and women and guess what a common side effect is... (breast enlargment). herbs like fenugreek, fennel, goats rue,alfalfa, blessed thistle, borage, blue verbena, milk thistle stimulate prolactin and in the wonderup pill there are strong galactagogues and th pill incorperates more galactagogues at higher dosages then it does phyoestrogens.
im all for balance and eating healthy and even if a woman goes to a store and eats lots veggies and herbs with isoflavons there is very little chance that would cause breast enlargment.i dont want women to think that phyoestrogens are the same as natural estrogen. they dont work the same they dont do the same things. even natural estrogens like estradiol cant be relied upon to cause breast enlargement. so the only way i would recommend eating veggies would be for overall good health. not estrogen balance cause it would be hard to say how it will shift a womans body chemistry. if women wants to try their luck with soy licorice root, tumeric red clover then fine. its is worth a shot but still becareful. work without strong phytoestrogens first then add them in later. just dont overload with a diet full of phytoestrogens cause its a waste of time.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 11 2006, 7:26 PM
thanks for getting the list of symtoms for hormonal levels. that can be a great way to see where you are so you dont start off blindly guessing what you need . i would also recommend doing saliva tests if that is an afortable option as well. i though that i was estrogen deficient but later on i found out with lab tests im a estrogen dominant and deficient in progesterone. i have some interesting studies that relate hormon levels to breast size i want to share with you all. they are posted on the new beboard forum under medical related research. they help to clarify the whole balance thing s bit better and hows what balances are needed for breast size changes.
http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1141150957
http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1070212047
http://beboard.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=medical&action=display&thread=1070495103
its interesting to see how all the hormones are realated. some are precursors to others and some affect the inversly or directly the levels of others. all the hormones are related to each other in some way which hammers home the idea of balance. http://www.yourmenopausetype.com/steroidpathway/steroidpathway.htm. cortisol even can somehow affect breast size if its deficient. so things do get complicated very fast. but a typical NBE routine with herbs should be good enough for many women. if not then we got a big prob tying to figure out whats out of whack.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 12 2006, 11:53 PM
Thanks for the info SugarQ will take some time to read it through. Fortunate for me I am willing to and want to gain weight. I have an excellent frame and I am 125 pounds which is the minimum weight I can be for my height to be considered normal and healthy. I am willing to go up to 150 pounds though, not a big fan of being slim, I honestly think it is healthier and sexier to have a bit of weight (and curves). Hopefully I can have the right regimen together so my weight gain can primarily go to my breasts.
Anonymous
(Login rkai93)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
May 13 2006, 1:21 AM
so...i'm confused...In reading all the symptoms of imbalances...it strikes me that i am fairly balanced.....not deficient or dominant in anything
what's a balanced girl to do for NBE? i'm 35, 5'3" and about 107-110 lbs. breast size ranges from 32C, to 34C
Lisa xsxsxs :-)
(Login seemonkeyme)
EVE MEMBERS
wsdm
May 13 2006, 4:58 PM
WOW it sounds like we have the same problem wsdm same symptoms. I can eat and eat and not gain a pound. This is very interesting thanks so much for sharing. Sounds like you and hoEB make a good team you both are very intellegent and full of good info. take care Lisaxxxx
Corrie
(Login Corrie73)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
April 24 2007, 11:16 PM
This makes a lot of sense to me. Its kind of a hard read though!
It sounds like SugarQ is saying that balance and galactologues work for NBE, NOT just phytoestrogens.
Does that sound right?
Linz
(no login)
Re: Estrogen the key to breast growth
April 25 2007, 7:13 AM
Good work snowflake!!
So is there any point to phytoestrogens?
Certainly explains why wonderup seems to be successful