[admin]

Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 30 2009 at 11:12 AM Arissa-serai  (Login Arissa-serai)
Hi, I hope someone can provide me with opinions/ suggestions/ pointers on my strategy devised for my situation of being low estrogen/ even lower progesterone.

Profile: Age 23, 32A, prone to face and back acne

Strategy devised (adapted and altered from info provided in this site):

To first increase progesterone level: For first 2 weeks:

*1000mg, vitamin C, once in the morning

*75mg protein (perhaps soy protein powder? Heard too much soy is bad for the legs), once in the morning

*½ teaspoon progesterone cream “2 times a day to inner thighs, wrist,tummy, underneath inside of arms-just be sure to rub it on a different spot each time instead of the same spot everytime.” – is it really necessary to stop using this during period?

*Gym 3 times a week

Still continuing with the above, Then add on (to increase estrogen level):

*Multivitamin, once in the morning

*Fenugreek: 2 capsules 3 times daily (about 3000mg – might start off with 2000mg and slowly increase after a month), 1 hr b4 food or 2-3hrs after meal & 1/2hr b4 bed (mixed with soy choc milk or fruit punch and drink lots of water to prevent acne) – should I start off with fennel instead since I have some mild acne problems?

*“SawPalmetto-320mg 1/2 hr b4 bed” – was told that adding some other herb to fenugreek will provide better results. Was suggested that 500mg of goat’s rue will be good as well. Is it better to take goat’s rue or SP? Kinda prefer not taking SP coz of its weight-gaining effects, but then it seems fenugreek reqs some other herb to go along to get better results.

*Fenugreek powder (2 capsules) mixed in borage oil/EPO in equal quantities, massage once at night

Does anyone know if this strategy is ok for me? I know I need to trial and error but as in, does anyone know if there is anything in the strategy that does not go with each other and will cause bad effects?

Is it alright to continue with both the strategies to increase the progesterone level and estrogen level at the same time? Like does the progesterone cream go along with fenugreek?

Would really appreciate if someone can help me with this. =)





StacyEllen
(no login)
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 30 2009, 12:14 PM

just one thought....i don't think soy is the best option for gals trying to up their proten. Whey powder is the protein that many nutritionists say is best.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 30 2009, 4:10 PM

Hi Arissa-serai,

First of all, how do you know you are Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone? Did you use the information on the newcomers thread alone or have you also had saliva tests. The reason I ask is because we need to be sure before you at such a young age begin this project.

Although it is unlikely at your age, it is not impossible that you have low estrogen and low progesterone. However, the symptoms for these conditions are also the symptoms for other endocrine disorders let's be absolutely sure that you are treating the right thing.

So, my first advice is get two saliva tests done. One for estrodiol done about 5 or 6 of your cycle. One for progesterone done about day 22 - 25 of your cycle. If the results of these tests will confirm you hypothesis, you can then proceed with confidence.

Now about the plan you are considering, if indeed you find you need to use it.

----------------------------------------
*1000mg, vitamin C, once in the morning
-- good idea, this will improve your health and increase your chances of NBE.

-------------------------------------------
*75mg protein (perhaps soy protein powder? Heard too much soy is bad for the legs), once in the morning
--- the total amount of protein is a good idea, but your body is only able to digest about 30 grams of protein at a time. You would need to divide this into at least 2 drinks (taken at least 2 hours apart). Also my advice would be to use whey or egg white protein powder. Soy can seriously interfere with your thyroid, especially if you have estrogen dominance.

---------------------------------
*½ teaspoon progesterone cream “2 times a day to inner thighs, wrist,tummy, underneath inside of arms-just be sure to rub it on a different spot each time instead of the same spot everytime.” – is it really necessary to stop using this during period?
--- Not unless you have a saliva test to prove you need it. You must learn more about use of progesterone cream and I suggest the book by Dr John Lee 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause'. This book is one of the best for learning how and why to use progesterone cream. Even though you are years away from premenopause it still would apply if you need to use PC. In that book you will learn where to put the cream (thin skinned areas) and why it is so important to use it only during day 12 - 28 of your cycle. You will also learn what would be the correct dosage for your situation - probably more like just one application per day. But again - don't do this unless you have a saliva test showing you are low in progesterone.

--------------------------------
*Gym 3 times a week
--- Absolutely a great idea. This will improve your health and lower your stress levels which will help you in so many ways.


----------------------------------
*Multivitamin, once in the morning
--- Always a good idea to make sure you have the necessary vitamins you need each day.

------------------------------------------
*Fenugreek: 2 capsules 3 times daily (about 3000mg – might start off with 2000mg and slowly increase after a month), 1 hr b4 food or 2-3hrs after meal & 1/2hr b4 bed (mixed with soy choc milk or fruit punch and drink lots of water to prevent acne) – should I start off with fennel instead since I have some mild acne problems?
--- The Fenugreek could aggravate your acne. For your situation if indeed you do have low estrogen I would suggest using Fennel. Fennel is a fairly low dosage phytoestrogen and is suitable for someone with estrogen dominance. It has never been shown to have side effects like fenugreek and is a positive for NBE.

--------------------------------------
*“SawPalmetto-320mg 1/2 hr b4 bed” – was told that adding some other herb to fenugreek will provide better results. Was suggested that 500mg of goat’s rue will be good as well. Is it better to take goat’s rue or SP? Kinda prefer not taking SP coz of its weight-gaining effects, but then it seems fenugreek reqs some other herb to go along to get better results.
--- Don't take the Saw Palmetto. This should be used only if you for sure have high testosterone. I would suggest Maca instead since you are wanting to gain weight.

---------------------------------
*Fenugreek powder (2 capsules) mixed in borage oil/EPO in equal quantities, massage once at night
--- This would be fine as a topical and you will be able to avoid the acne problems using Fenugreek in this way.

*********************************************************************

I can see you put a lot of thought into this plan. That is great. Right now get some more information about your hormone levels using the saliva tests. If indeed you have estrogen dominance then you will want to concentrate on resolving that first. The changes I recommended would be better for estrogen dominance.

If your progesterone really is low then treating that will immediately improve your low estrogen.

I look forward to hearing more from you and finding out your saliva test results. You did a great job in your research and I am sure you are ready to get started, but just a little bit longer to make sure you have all the facts you need.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Arissa-serai
(Login Arissa-serai)
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 30 2009, 7:52 PM

Hi Waxingmoon, thanks a lot for your prompt response and insightful advice.

I have taken a saliva test by Dr. John Lee (ZRT labs) recommended in this forum. I called the lab to ask what does my result mean and she told me that both my estrogen and progesterone levels are lower than normal.

My lab results are as follows (I think I took my sample sometime between the 19-22 day of e cycle):

Estradiol (saliva)
Out of range (1.1L)
Correct range: 1.3-3.3 for premenopausal (luteal)

Progesterone (saliva)
Out of range (50L)
Correct range: 75-270 premenopausal

Ratio: Pg/E2
Out of range: 45L
Optimal: 100-500 when E2 1.3-3.3

For the results just based on the symptoms I ticked off (not by saliva testing):

Very very very mildly tend towards high cortisol and high androgens (DHEA/Testosterone)

Estrogen Dominance/Progesterone Deficiency: 8.6 (ok range)
Estrogen/Progesterone Deficiency: 5.3 (ok too)

So does it mean I'm indeed estrogen dominant (low estrogen/ even lower progesterone)? And if so, do you think it is necessary that I use a progesterone cream, or will it be sufficient to just take vitamin C and protein powder?

I have a few more questions which I hope you can help me with to get started on my program:

*For fennel, is it also like fenugreek in terms of the dosage I should take daily (about 2 caps 3 times a day; 2000-3000mg; max of 3000+mg)?

*Actually I prefer not to take maca coz of the possible weight gain. But I read it is less effective if I take fennel alone. Is there another herb that you can recommend to improve the effects of fennel?

*Lastly, I was thinking of just taking Vitamin C and protein to increase my progesterone level for about 2 weeks before my menstrual cycle, and then start on herbs like fennel. How can I tell if my progesterone level has been adjusted such that I am ready to increase my estrogen level? And is there a particular day of the cycle that I should start my program (of taking fennel etc)?

Thank you so much for kindly helping. =)



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 30 2009, 9:36 PM

Hi Arissa-serai,

I am glad you have done a saliva test. Yes, it does seem your progesterone is lower than it should be. You estrogen is also a little low.

As far as symptoms, you might check out the list I created if you haven't discovered it already.

It goes a little further than they list they have on Dr. Lee's website. If several of these symptoms seem to relate to your condition I would say you have pinpointed that you are estrogen dominant and indeed with low estrogen and even lower progesterone.

I agree that you should increase your vitamin C and protein to try and encourage your body to produce more progesterone on its own. Perhaps your body is not creating enough progesterone because it does not have enough raw materials. The biggest mystery is why your body does not produce enough hormones - the tests only show your symptoms, not the cause of those symptoms.

As far as using the progesterone cream - it might help you. If you were willing to use a low dosage (20mg per day) and use it for about 3 months or so, you should do fine with the progesterone cream. It may just jump start your body back into its own healthful rhythm and you would not need anymore. You must never use it prior to day 12 so that you will allow your body to ovulate if it will. You then use the cream until the start of your period. You always apply the cream to thin skinned areas so it will go into circulation instead of being stored in body fat. You rotate the application sites to assist with better absorption. If you wanted to use progesterone cream then I advise getting Dr. Lee's book - it is very helpful.

As far as herbs, start with small amounts and ramp up. I think the amount you are wanting is not necessary.

For fennel try 1 cap per day for a week then increase to two caps then finally a maximum of 4 caps per day. You only have so many estrogen receptors and you do not want to swamp them with this phytoestrogen. The lower dosage will increase your total body estrogen while a larger dose might actually reduce it (by blocking the receptors from your body's more potent natural estrogen).

If you don't want to use Fenugreek (it did make my face break out), you might try goat's rue. Like with the fennel start with a single cap then ramp up to the dosage suggested on the bottle. No need to go overboard.

As far as when to take the herbs, any day would be fine to begin. For a while I used my herbs only during the first 12 days of my cycle and then used progesterone cream from day 12 - 28. But it may or may not make much difference. The theory behind what I did was to use estrogenic herbs during the first part of the cycle when estrogen was building then stop the estrogenic during the last part of the cycle when progesterone was building. As a theory it is fine, but I don't know if it made much difference for me.

You will know if your progesterone is better when your symptoms begin to diminish. It will not be a quick fix. Expect to be dealing with this for a matter of months. Your total NBE regime may last 1 - 2 years. Patience will be an asset.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon




Sandra
(Login SandraDD)
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 31 2009, 12:51 PM

Arissa-serai,

Have you considered using a natural progesterone cream?

I have only been using it for 2 weeks (14th-28th day of my cycle) but I have noticed very significant changes in my breast. It's probably also a whole bunch of other stuff I'm doing (massaging, herbs, collagen, etc) but it's like as soon as I started applying the progesterone cream everybody's waking up.

I am using the Wellsprings Serenity Natural Progesterone Cream. It's actually made by Dr. Lee. You use it once in the morning and once at night and apply the cream on your face, neck, upper chest, inner arms, abs and inner thighs. It is supposed to help BOTH your progesterone AND estrogen levels. I really think it's worth a try.

I actually just left a lingerie shop and I tried on a 32D bra!!!
I am NOT a D cup in any way, I know and I'm not gonna get delusional (the bra is Asian so it's fitted a little differently plus it was PADDED). And if you look at my numbers I'm really still a B cup, but the numbers don't reflect how the upper side of my breasts used to be flatter and now there is a nice bulge. Anyway, I had to take out the padding from my 32C bra a few days ago because it was very uncomfortable and I just couldn't resist going into a lingerie store to see what it feels like to try on a D cup. The bra was padded however I still filled it up nicely (with padding!) but it felt ****ing AWESOME!!!!

So really give the progesterone cream some thought. I was a little bit low in estrogen but my progesterone level was pretty normal. I think if it's both low for you then it might make a even more significant difference.



itsjust4fun91
(Login itsjust4fun91)
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
August 31 2009, 2:14 PM

I have used progesterone in the past and can say for me it did effect my breast, BUT once my hormones were balanced out and I stopped the cream, it didn't 100% last. The first result I got from it breast wise, was that they filled back out to pre breastfeeding size and shape. I was thrilled with that alone, the next thing that happened was toward the end of my use, when my hormones were leveled back out but I was still using it, the excess progesterone caused swelling in the breast with my cycle. They became very enlarged and hard as if I were breast feeding again.This would only occur during the two weeks prior to my period each month. Once I stopped the cream, the swelling and hardness went away, but the fullness and pre breastfeding shape remained. So for me the progesterone did help with my breast and I was very happy with that side effect even if it wasn't the reason I began progesterone at the time.

Seeing those results though did lead me eventually to begin questioning what other things could effect breast growth and that's how I came to NBE. I mean after seeing it with my own eyes that taking something can change it, I was very open to the thought that other things could as well.

The thing with progesterone cream though is that "SOME" women only need it temporarily to get things back on track. If you are one of those women, then continueing to use it after you are balanced back out can lead to imbalances also. Slathering on large amounts can also lead to problems. I know it's temping because when you start seeing results you think wow. if this amount works this well, what would twice or three times that amount do. It just doesn't work that way though and you can end up on a very emotional rollercoaster that I like to call the sybil effect. LOL. One second you're normal, the next you're crying or screaming, and 5 seconds later you finish off the episode with laughing, then a shocked feeling of what the heck just happened? And a lot of embarrassment if someone witnessed the whole thing. LOL

It took me a year of using progesterone, taking my vitamins and exercising, to get my hormones balanced back out. I swear by the stuff as I know it saved my sanity. When used properly, progesterone cream for some women is nothing short of a miracle! But, always be vigilant while using it. Pay attention to what your body is telling you and know when it might be time that you can either lower your dose or can stop.

Melissa



Sandra
(Login SandraDD)
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
September 1 2009, 2:07 AM

Melissa,

thanks for sharing your experience!!



Arissa-serai
(Login Arissa-serai)
Re: Strategy for Estrogen Dominant --- Low Estrogen/Even Lower Progesterone -- Opinions pls!
September 1 2009, 11:46 AM

Hi all, thank u so much for being so warm and helpful.

From all your advices, I think perhaps I will start with vitamin C and whey protein and progesterone cream (20mg per day) for about tentatively 3 months (only from day 12 to 28).

After that, I will stop the progesterone cream while still continuing with the vitamin C and protein daily, and I will start taking fennel pills (daily) and apply fenugreek powder mixed with borage oil to massage daily.

Hopefully 3 months of using the progesterone cream is just nice in that it helps to correct my progesterone levels and it won't make me get on a super crazy emotional rollar coaster.. lol.. then I can start with the fennel pills and fenugreek to start increasing my estrogen level.

Really hope this strategy is ok and will work.

Once again, thanks to all of you for sharing your stories and for your kind advices. =)

[admin]

Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 12 2008 at 2:42 AM Double D (Login OneFullD)

I read on one post by waxingmoon that for Estrogen Dominant people that have low estrogen and even lower progesterone is that they could take Photoestrogens days 1-14 and progesterone days 15-28.
However, it was suggested not to do vitex like that since it takes a minimum of 3 months to see the effects. I was going to try PM days 1-14 and then Vitex days 15-28, would this be okay? If not then what could I take instead of Vitex? Would it be progesterone cream? OR Wild Yam ?

Thanks



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 12 2008, 4:09 PM

Hi DoubleD,

Take the vitex continuously. It works by stimulating your body to produce more progesterone after you ovulate, so in a sense it is providing effect only when you need it. If you take it only a few days of the month it will never be able to have its full effect.

I would not recommend PM to support your estrogen. That is a sledge hammer approach to something that needs a gentle touch. I agree that supporting your estrogen only during the first part of your cycle would be best, but choose a less potent herb, like fennel. You do not want to swamp your estrogen receptors with something that is more potent than your body's own estrogen. You want to marginally increase your total estrogen level.

Here is the science behind what you wish to achieve. Currently if your are both estrogen and progesterone deficient, you are suffering from estrogen dominance and estrogen deficiency symptoms. When you begin taking vitex your body will be stimulated to produce more progesterone (usually this takes as much as 3 months of constant use). When your progesterone level rises, your body will activate dormant estrogen receptors. These newly activated receptors will respond to any estrogen that happens to be floating around. Both your symptoms will likely improve. You may not need to support you body with any extra estrogen after this if what your body was suffering from was not enough estrogen receptors. If your estrogen dominance symptoms continue to improve, but your estrogen deficiency symptoms linger, then providing the body with a relatively low dose phytoestrogen should be enough to treat your symptom without pushing you back into estrogen dominance again.

It is a precarious balance to achieve what you seek. If you push too hard with the estrogen, even though you might need some support you will throw yourself off onto the estrogen dominance side.

I hope this lengthy explanation has helped.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 12 2008, 5:10 PM

WOW! I knew if anyone could answer this it would be you!

It was an extremely great explanation.Just a few more clarifications, because I am not sure if I have this right.

PM is too much photoestrogen so I should just stop using it?

Vitex will help me, in terms of raising progesterone levels. However, I may not need phytoestrogens for the first half of my cycle because raising progesterone levels may help this. Vitex needs to be taken continually, at which time (3 mths) it should start to kick in and do its job. Wild Yam may also raise progesterone levels too. Do I have this all correct?

Can I use Wild Yam and Vitex together? I was also thinking about taking Bo with Vitex and Wild Yam, will this be ok?

If I am not feeling more balanced (ED symptoms are not gone) and breast fullness is not occuring then I should add weak phytoestrogens? Fennel is a good choice for me because it is supposed increase the butt too!

So now I am wondering if taking Maca or EPO will help balance or throw off the balance?

Finally, from what I understand, to increase breast size you first and foremost achieve a hormonal balance? Meaning once I am balanced then I will start to grow?

Thank you so much for your help.




waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 12 2008, 8:03 PM

Hi DoubleD,

If I were you I would stop using the PM.

Wild yam will not increase your progesterone level. In the wild, Wild Yam is slightly estrogenic. It does attach to the progesterone receptors, but it does not activate them. Think of a key going into a door lock but being unable to turn. In the lab, they use wild yam to make natural progesterone cream - but this is a process that only happens in the lab - can't do it in our bodies. (To confuse things, some natural progesterone creams use the name wild yam, but they are only the good stuff if in the ingredients it states that it contains USP progesterone)

The BO (bovine ovary) will likely worsen your estrogen dominance. Although technically the cow ovary might contain progesterone - it all depends on when the ovary was harvested - it probably contains way more estrogen than you need.

If you are still feeling estrogen dominance symptoms then concentrate right now on increasing the progesterone only. In your scenario this would mean using vitex alone.

Once the estrogen dominance symptoms abate you can add a weak phytoestrogen like fennel during the first part of your cycle. You could also try maca during the first part of your cycle. One or the other or they could push you back into estrogen dominance.

The EPO is fine at any time and will not interfere with estrogen dominance. Since EPO is an Omega 6 fatty acid, be sure to take an Omega 3 fatty acid at about the same level to balance these fats in your system (flax seed oil is a good choice). This fatty acid balance in necessary for your health.

You are right that you need to get into hormone balance first. Once your estrogen dominance and deficiency symptoms abate then NBE will be easier for you (plus you will be so much more healthy).

Some other things to do to support your progesterone is to make sure you have the building blocks for it. You need to have adequate protein in your diet. You need to make sure you take vitamin C (500 - 2000 mg). You need to avoid sugar and get plenty of sleep. You also need to reduce your stress levels. Progesterone is used by your body to make other hormones - cortisol, the stress hormone is one of them. If you are chronically stressed out then you are using your progesterone to make cortisol and you will not achieve progesterone/estrogen balance.

Glad to help you with your questions. Let me know if you have any more.

waxingmoon




Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 12 2008, 9:21 PM

I actually bought Vitex a while back and was hesitant on taking it, mainly because I did not understand the hormonal balance factor.

I was actually thinking that cow ovaries would naturally contain progesterone. I had ordered generic BO which I think could contain progesterone too. I was going to take it with Vitex. I think I might try vitex first, then slowly add in some BO, but I will just be taking in small amounts. I did not buy much BO but I would like to try it out with Vitex because I think I might get really good results. What do you think about that?

I take other supplements some related and some not related to NBE: Fish Oil, Royal Jelly, Bee Pollen, GABA, Protein Shakes, Swiss Lamb Placenta, Hyaluronic Acid, Ginkgo Biloba, Multivitamin,EPO, Coenzyme Q10, MSM, and sometimes an Amino Acid Complex. I have liquid flaxseed oil, which I do not take Do you see a problem with any of these being taken with Vitex?

I am going to try to reduce my stress levels with ginger tea and 5HTP. Once I start on BO I will take some L-Tyrosine (which I already have) which is supposed to reduce physiological and psychological stress.

I am going to take 400mg in the morning and 400mg before bed. I may copy Classyfashh's program and add Green Tea Extract Capsules and Cayenne Pepper, as well as grinded Flaxseed in Oatmeal.

Again, thanks so much for your help! I would be LOST without you!




Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 12 2008, 9:32 PM

I also forgot to ask (You would think that I would have remembered to include everything in the last long letter I wrote) about the cycle.

If I do decide to take fennel or Progesterone Cream then how do I know which days are which in my cycle? I guess on the 14th day is when I would start menstration and I just count from there?

Thanks



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 13 2008, 12:19 AM

Hi DoubleD,

If you are going to use progesterone cream then I recommend reading more about how to use it safely. Dr. John Lee's book 'What your doctor may not tell you about premenopause' has a great amount of information on how to use progesterone cream.

You cycle starts with your period. That is day 1. During this first part of your cycle your body is building up to ovulation which theoretically occurs on day 14. After ovulation your body builds the corpus luteum out of the cyst the egg came from. It is in this later half of the cycle that the body produces most of its progesterone. When you use progesterone cream you only use it for the last half of your cycle - otherwise you will cause problems with your natural hormone rhythm. It is somewhat complicated so that is why I recommend the book.

It is also very important to apply only the correct amount of progesterone cream and to apply it to thin skinned non fat areas. You rotate where you apply the cream so you enhance absorption and reduce storage in body fat. I could go on and on and on... get the book - it is all in there.

As far as the other stuff you are using - the lamb placenta is going to be estrogenic, but probably won't interfere with the vitex... but maybe not so good for ED.

Watch out when you are taking amino acids - too much of some can be real trouble. I am not sure which one you are taking 400 mg twice a day but if it is the tyrosine ...

"L Tyrosine side effects can include over-stimulation, restlessness, anxiety, and insomnia. Heart palpitations or arrhythmias are potential side effects that occur from high doses of tyrosine. These can occur in sensitive individuals in as low a dose as 200 to 500 mg."

This was taken from a great website: http://www.raysahelian.com
Scroll down and you can find info on many things you might be taking.

As far as the 5HTP - he considers anything above 50 - 100 mg too high a dosage so be very careful.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 13 2008, 12:42 AM

I am still amazed, you are so great!

Thanks for all the info. Still just one more question: about the BO. Is it ok for me to take the Vitex with the BO, furthermore a generic BO? I may switch to Bountiful Breast or Ultra Breast System later on and try that for 9 months with Vitex. Will this be a problem for my ED? Moreover, can I see any growth taking the 2 together?

I know Vitex is a slow acting herb but, it says to take it for a minimum of 8-12 weeks. So does this mean that it will take 8-12 weeks to notice any changes in my breasts and my ED symptoms?

Lastly, (I know I said just one question!)when I stop taking Vitex will I lose my growth? I seen the post by Karen saying she had gone from 32 A to a 32 C in just 5 mths, which is pretty impressive. However, she never cam back on here so I don't know if she even kept it.

Thanks



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 13 2008, 6:57 PM

Oh I forgot to mention it was Vitex that I was planning to take 2 capsules of 400mg twice a day. I did stop the PM because I started to break out. Should I take milk thistle again to clear the liver before starting the Vitex or should I just start Vitex? I did just take some (Milk Thistle) for 10 days about 3 weeks ago so I did not think I needed it again so soon.

Thanks



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 13 2008, 10:32 PM

Hi DoubleD,

I don't think the BO is a good idea for right now. It really does not matter if it is Bountiful Breast or generic. There is no way to know the hormone ratio within the BO from company to company, bottle to bottle or even within each pill. BO is not standardized. In other words they are not guaranteeing what is in the capsules is the same for each capsule. The variations are not something they can track because they get the product from such a large number of cows. Depending on the time of year, age of the cow, hormone cycle of the cow, the amount of estrogen vs progesterone will be different. If the cow has ovulated and the corpus luteum has developed then there will be more progesterone in the mix. If the cow has not ovulated - is not mature enough to or is past the age of reproduction then there will be more estrogen in the mix.

It is highly variable - but I would say that most likely there would be more estrogen than progesterone in the mix more often. I say this based on what would be the most likely scenario for the cow ending up in the slaughter house. Either it was raised for meat and had not likely reached reproductive maturity or it was passed the reproductive ideal age. Both scenarios would mean it would be less likely ovulation had occurred and therefore less or almost no progesterone in the mix.

Thus I think of BO as likely to complicate your ED. If you want to use this form of NBE then use it after your ED is under control.

To answer your other question, I think you could start vitex immediately without doing a milk thistle cleanse. You may or may not begin to feel effects from the vitex at first. You may feel a slight worsening in your ED symptoms as vitex begins to work because one of the first thing the additional progesterone does is wake up your dormant estrogen receptors. But, not to worry if you continue the regime you will likely reach a balanced state.

As far as vitex being a substance that will increase your breast size - probably not likely. "Karen" was an interesting poster who came by, said her thing and was never heard from again. I doubt her scenario was very likely and would represent an unusual response. That being said, I am one of those people who did have an increase in breast size due to progesterone. However, I was using progesterone cream - and no - I don't advise anyone to use progesterone cream for such a purpose. I was treating my ED and the breast growth was a welcome side effect. Therefore, I can say that while it is remotely possible you will experience some permanent breast increase from vitex, it is more likely that you would experience some temporary swelling from the newly awakened estrogen receptors.

I hope this has answered your questions, but if you have more, ask away - I obviously don't mind speaking my mind... lol.

waxingmoon



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 14 2008, 12:11 AM

I do not mind you speaking your mind either, you are so knowledgeable!

Heres the plan: I started Vitex today. 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. I also cut the swiss lamb placenta for now. I plan to take this for about 2 months (I am hoping by then I should be fine). Then, I wanted to take the BO AND Vitex.

Classyfashh also stated she grew 1 cup size in 2 months from Vitex. I am thinking if it is what I need then I should have breast growth as a side effect, right?

BountifulBreast has pituitary which is supposed to work to stimulate secretion of both estrogen and progesterone. Also, by taking it with Vitex shouldn't I be fine? I really want to increase the size of my breasts too! But would like to be balanced too. My poor husband has been feeling the effects of my being imbalanced, and I would like to just feel "normal" (hormone wise).

While taking Vitex should I feel like my breasts are getting bigger as well? I remembered that when I was on birth control my breasts grew from a small B to a very full B or small C. I checked to see what was in it, and it was mostly progesterone with a small amount of estrogen. To be honest I did feel balanced and my breasts were nice and full! After having kids though, it does not seem to have the same effect. So I am guessing I need estrogen but even more progesterone (which is what the online test told me as well). So, I am still guessing that I need more progesterone (Vitex) and then a small amount of estrogen (Bountiful Breast Pills). Please tell me do I have everything under control?

Of course, if I am not feeling fine with these plans I will modify them. But I think I modified enough NBE plans of mine, this should be the last NBE plan I make!

I think I am getting the hang of it! Thanks Waxingmoon!

I will be posting on my page my results (if any).



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 14 2008, 9:56 PM

I also forgot to ask you, one of the most important questions!

What do Estrogen Dominant people take to increase the size of their breasts naturally? You had said that Vitex is more for balancing, rather than enlarging the breasts.

Thanks



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 15 2008, 1:48 PM

Also, I am wondering when it would be a good time to add BO? HOw long should I take Vitex by itself before adding BO?

Thanks



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 15 2008, 2:03 PM

Hi Double D,
Estrogen Dominant women often do not respond to NBE if they have extreme symptoms. One of the reasons for this is due to the interference of estrogen with the thyroid gland. When estrogen is not balanced by enough progesterone, thyroid binding hormone in the body increases and begins to bind with what our thyroid releases before it ever gets to the cells. This means a woman will have hypo-thyroid symptoms but when tested often has normal thyroid levels.

A hypothyroid issue is one of the worst for NBE. Actually any strong hormonal imbalance will upset the apple cart. What we need for NBE to function the best is a normal and balanced hormone situation. Then the use of the typical herbs and techniques works well and quickly.

This fact is very shrouded because often when a woman starts to resolve her hormone situation the body just goes ahead and increases the breast size. Bingo - what was keeping this womans breasts small was an inhibiting factor of the imbalance itself. This kind of response is somewhat rare, but it does crop up and confuses the standard NBE issue. (yeah, I am one of these irritating cases... lol. I think the elusive 'Karen' was also one of these cases...)

Another thing that keeps people from realizing what standard NBE is all about is the fact that increased loads of estrogen that are not balanced by progesterone often results in temporary swelling. It is the old - "Hey I just started NBE 2 days ago and I am already up 3 cup sizes" ... followed by "Oh no!!!! All my growth is gone and I feel horrible now." If you stick around the forum long enough you will see this pattern repeated again and again.

So, to answer your question about what ED women do for NBE... they resolve it FIRST and then they choose an NBE method that does not cause an increase in estrogen that cannot be balanced by progesterone. I am a big fan of using galactogouges once the ED is resolved. They have a proven track record and can cause breast growth without stimulating an overload of estrogen. It is also essential that the breast be stimulated in some way via massage or my favorite of the moment, suction method.

So, this is why I keep saying -don't use the BO until you get the ED resolved. Let's see how well you respond to just the vitex itself. Hey, maybe you will be another 'Karen' and that will be all you ever need to do... but don't hold your breath (ha ha, I just typed breasts instead of breath... lol)

Be willing for this to take a lot of time. I am past my 2 year mark and still rolling.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 15 2008, 2:40 PM

I am hoping that as I become more balanced with Vitex that I do increase in size. I am not sure how long I should do this for though. You said it may take a while, and I am already anxious.

I did the overload of estrogen thinking that was what everyone needed because I had seen some grow like this. But then I stopped and now I am like a small B. I hope I do grow like "Karen"!

I am anxious to take BO, as you can tell because I am so tired of being depressed about my breasts. I have always been a full B, but after having kids they are empty and sagging and probably an A cup/small B. I am only 25! I think Vitex will work for me and it may not take 3 months to see a difference. I read Classyfashh's program who seemed to gained but then stopped to quickly and lost. This is what I want to avoid. I was hoping a year would get me to at least a full C, perhaps a D would be nice.

After I take the Vitex pills I feel a sensation in my breasts, is this normal? Does this mean that it is working and my breasts will increase? Is has only been 3 days.

I thought that galactogouges were not good for ED people? Can you list me some other ones. I only know of fenugreek (which I will not take again) and Goats Rue. I do massages everyday but not for very long and perhaps I am not doing them very efficiently either.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 16 2008, 1:30 PM

Hi DoubleD,
I think that what is most likely at work after 3 days of vitex is your powerful mind. You feel positive about what you are doing and your powerful brain is helping you along. I am not joking - I really feel you are creating this effect and it shows you will likely get results... so keep up the good work.

I can understand how you are anxious. I was too at first, but it kind of wore off after all the TIME I had to spend chasing this dream. I think that NBE is one of the best things to ever happen to me and not just because my breasts are bigger. My mind is bigger too. I have learned a lot about the human potential and a lot about how I was limiting myself with my beliefs.

We tend to focus too strongly on what we do not have. If a person who is overweight walks into a room of people - all they see is the people who are thinner than they are. I was blind to my better qualities because all I ever saw when I walked into a group of women was their 'perfect' breasts. NBE has been a transformation of spirit within me. I am much more balanced in my thoughts about myself and much more accepting about my 'flaws'. I am sure this process has already begun in you and you will find yourself getting more relaxed about yourself and any anxiety will fall away.

You mentioned the two main galactogouges. There are others, and I believe that fennel is one of them. I personally like goat's rue the best because me and fenugreek had a falling out. I am allergic to chickpeas and fenugreek is in the same family of plants. Apparently they are too close of cousins because fenugreek made me feel the opposite of awesome. Goat's rue was much better although I had to watch my sugar levels because it tended to give me headaches. I only stopped using goat's rue because I ran out. It is harder to find than fenugreek. I may use it again and not just for the breast effect. I found that it was helping me lose some weight because it was blocking the absorption of carbohydrates (thus the sugar lows).

As far as massage - try and make it part of your morning routine or do some in the shower. The best method is the one that you will use. Keep at it and you will find it easier and easier to make the time.

Best wishes,
waxingmoon



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 16 2008, 1:32 PM

So you would recommend that I take Vitex alone for 3 months then add in BO?

What kinds of products would you suggest for NBE as an ED person? I know you said galactagouges (I dont think I spelled right) but I was wondering which ones would be best because fenugreek would not be good for an ED person.

Will it be ok to take Vitex with BO or will that decrease the efficiency of either one of these products?

If I do not take Vitex for 3 months by itself an then add in BO and continue to take Vitex will this be fine also?

Again, thanks for all your help.



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 16 2008, 1:53 PM

Well, I am glad that it is working. I have put it in my brain that I have tried everything and it has not worked so there must be something else. I have learned from you that there needs to be a balance, not an overload of hormones. I know this is what my body needs and it seems as though my body knows that too. I will keep you posted. I am hoping I can grow finally.

You are right we do always want what we do not have. You are also right about this process beginning to show me it is ok to have flaws and to accept myself as I am, but still not quite there yet. I am dealing with self esteem issues after having kids my body has changed alot and I was not prepared for these kind of changes. I think though that everything happens for a reason. If nothing else it has humbled me, and shown me not to judge others, and shown me that there are many other people out there struggling like I am, even celebrities. I am trying to fix everything I do not like about myself naturally and I call it the natural extreme makeover. The more I try the better I feel about myself and the more forgiving I am about my outside features, knowing that I am much more than the eye sees. However, to a Full D or even a Full C would be a dream for me! I have only been that size while being pregnant and it would be nice to have a Full C and a nice flat tummy!

I might try Goats Rue at a later time ( My husband is letting me make one more NBE purchase, which will be BB). Not exactly sure about what it does and where to get it. Fenugreek does not agree with my body either. Did Goats Rue increase your breast size while taking it?

My problem is finding something and sticking with it long term. I guess because I am so anxious, but I think as I start to see small improvements I will be more at rest.

Thank you so much.




Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 19 2008, 1:45 AM

Sorry waxingmoon, I just had one more question.

I plan to take Vitex for at least 3 months by itself. However, I wanted to continue with Vitex after and then start BO. Will it be okay to take the both of them once I am "balanced"? The reason I asked this is because Vitex lowers prolactin and BO is supposed to raise it.

I would really love your input, thanks again for everything.



waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 19 2008, 3:42 PM

Hi DoubleD,

I am not so sure the claims of BO are absolutely correct. I don't know the mechanism of this prolactin increase from its use.

I have thoroughly read Bountiful Breasts website claims regarding their product and I would have to say they are far fetched. Bovine ovary provides estrogen and sometimes progesterone. Bountiful Breast does not have some exclusive cows that they slaughter only after the cows have ovulated and thus have a lot of progesterone. Their claim about it providing progesterone is hogwash. Like most BO it is mostly estrogen. They offer no evidence of the amount of any hormone in their product. They do quote Dr John Lee about natural progesterone a whole bunch. This makes their product sound very legitimate - but Dr John Lee never promoted the use of BO.

I am not saying that BO is not effective for NBE and I am not trying to dissuade you from using it. Plenty of women do gain from its use. I hope you have been on the BO part of the forum because you will also find that plenty of women do not grow from its use. There are also generic varieties of BO which have been as effective as Bountiful Breast for a fraction of the cost.

Do I think that BO causes a rise in prolactin - no. Therefore I think you should be able to use it and vitex simultaneously. Just do as you are suggesting and use the vitex a few months first. If your ED symptoms abate then you can try the BO and vitex together. If your ED symptoms return then it would be wisest to stop the BO.

I guess the main thing I am saying is that you may or may not be able to use the BO due to your ED tendencies. BO does contain - mostly - estrogen. I would hate for you to invest a whole bunch of money in Bountiful Breast and discover it is not right for you. Have you considered using a generic brand first. If you used generic BO and did not have a return of ED problems then you could switch to Bountiful Breast. If generic BO gave you problems then you would not be out a bunch of money.

Whatever you decide I wish you the best with it,
waxingmoon



Double D
(Login OneFullD)
Re: Estrogen/Progesterone Balance! PLEASE HELP!!! ANYONE?WAXINGMOON ?!!
October 19 2008, 7:34 PM

Thank you so much, I cannot express how grateful I am for this info. The hormonal balance is what I have been missing in my NBE plan for the last few years.

For BB they claim progesterone and estrogen increases due to the pituitary gland that they also put in their pill. That is why I think I will not only be getting estrogen because the pituitary will also work to secrete progesterone. That is what I understood from talking to plenty of the BB personnel. Not only the ovaries hormones but the pituitary is supposed to work on sending them to work on only the breasts.

I have gone through the BO forum (back to front), and I have also searched for people who took Vitex and BO. I cannot figure out why some grew great while some did not. For the most part I think more people have grown on BO then on individual herbs. BB and Ultrabreast have a money back guarantee which seems pretty good because nothing nowadays has a money back guarantee! So at least I would try to get my money back if it does not work. I did buy about a 1-2 month supply of generic BO, but it ended up costing me like $104 (I live in Canada). So in the long run BB would be cheaper for me ($464.91 as opposed to . I do not think that you are trying to dissuade me at all, unlike some you are not like that. I feel you are just trying to provide me with the info to make an informed decision. But for some reason I feel a pull towards BO, I just know it will work for me and my lifestyle, as well as give me good, permanent results.

I am trying to remain patient but, it is just so darn hard! I am supposed to going on Vacation in Jan.(which will be the middle of winter) and I was hoping to have some boobage by then so I can fill out a bathing suit (which I have never been able to do). I might try the BO and Vitex a little bit sooner because of the vacation. I have about 3 months to get it done. I am also working out at the gym to try and lose a few pounds but mostly to get in shape. I wonder if both would make me grow? I also wonder if it would hinder my growth if I took the both of them