Hi guys,
So I know some of us are taking Saw Palmetto to counteract the effects of androgen resulting from certain herbs or because you are biologically male. So I've read a lot on the forums, and as I understand, SP prevents DHT from being converted to testoterones?
(Update: nvm this is actually not correct) So does that mean when you guys refer to androgens, you are talking about testoterones?
I'm trying to gain bigger muscles on my butts and legs through weight lifting
. And I've seen many sources claiming testoterones are needed to gain bigger muscle. So am I right to assume that taking SP while trying to gain muscle is futile?
Ok, so I got it wrong. I found out that even though testoterone is a type of androgen, the androgen most members here refer to is actually DHT. And DHT is different from DHEA. Sorry, the DHs at the beginning confused me
Credit to Isabelle for the info
"Testosterone is made from DHEA. Estrogens are made from testosterone. So you need testosterone for NBE. The anti-androgen blocks testosterone from becoming DHT. Testosterone grows muscle. DHT grows facial and body hair, causes male pattern baldness, and acne."
"Testosterone is made from DHEA.
From testosterone, the enzyme 5α-reductase makes dehydrotestosterone (DHT).
Also from testosterone, another enzyme, aromatase, makes estrogens.
DHT is what makes you shed hair and break out and grow facial hair. It also has positive effects: DHT increases libido and energy, and it builds the capability to cope with stress. Most of those positive effects, you can also expect from progesterone.
To block 5α-reductase, you can take an anti-androgen. The strongest is saw palmetto (SP), but spearmint tea helps too. Some phyto-estrogen herbs also have their own anti-androgens included, like hops has xanthohumol, and PM has β-sitosterol. "
le sigh.
It's really not so simple as that.
SP is the best herbal 5ARI, yes... But spearmint isn't even really a 5ARI at all, and neither is beta-sitosterol.
Spearmint is a powerful receptor antagonist against primarily the androgen receptors at hair follicles.
Beta-sitosterol is a more generalized receptor antagonist.
They do VERY different things, though both work as androgen blockers, just different kinds.
(14-06-2013, 05:36 AM)AbiDrew85 Wrote: [ -> ]le sigh.
It's really not so simple as that.
SP is the best herbal 5ARI, yes... But spearmint isn't even really a 5ARI at all, and neither is beta-sitosterol.
Spearmint is a powerful receptor antagonist against primarily the androgen receptors at hair follicles.
Beta-sitosterol is a more generalized receptor antagonist.
They do VERY different things, though both work as androgen blockers, just different kinds.
Hi Abi Drew,
I quoted the spearmint part from Isabelle so I'm not really sure myself how it works :o
So would you say spearmint is not a good anti-androgen for NBE purpose? When you said they're different kinds of androgen blockers, are you saying they're targetting the androgen receptors at different parts of our body?
(14-06-2013, 05:41 AM)goosebump Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Abi Drew,
I quoted the spearmint part from Isabelle so I'm not really sure myself how it works :o
So would you say spearmint is not a good anti-androgen for NBE purpose? When you said they're different kinds of androgen blockers, are you saying they're targetting the androgen receptors at different parts of our body?
Ugh. You weren't reading what I was typing.
Saw palmetto does practically nothing to the receptors. It strictly blocks the action of the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, partially preventing the reduction of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. This is the herb that's really not that useful to most NBE. Can be useful to some men and some very very few women.
Spearmint contains chemicals that are receptor blockers, which means they don't do squat to the hormone levels themselves, but prevent the hormones from binding to receptor sites and actually causing anything to happen. It favors body hair follicles, making it one of the most useful NBE anti-androgens.
Beta-sitosterol is a specific chemical, which is in PM, it's also in spearmint and in saw palmetto and in many things... It's a receptor blocker, but it's fairly weak and is fairly generalized in what receptors it'll bind to... It certainly helps, but it's hardly something to rely on.
(14-06-2013, 02:16 PM)AbiDrew85 Wrote: [ -> ] (14-06-2013, 05:41 AM)goosebump Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Abi Drew,
I quoted the spearmint part from Isabelle so I'm not really sure myself how it works :o
So would you say spearmint is not a good anti-androgen for NBE purpose? When you said they're different kinds of androgen blockers, are you saying they're targetting the androgen receptors at different parts of our body?
Ugh. You weren't reading what I was typing.
Saw palmetto does practically nothing to the receptors. It strictly blocks the action of the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, partially preventing the reduction of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. This is the herb that's really not that useful to most NBE. Can be useful to some men and some very very few women.
Spearmint contains chemicals that are receptor blockers, which means they don't do squat to the hormone levels themselves, but prevent the hormones from binding to receptor sites and actually causing anything to happen. It favors body hair follicles, making it one of the most useful NBE anti-androgens.
Beta-sitosterol is a specific chemical, which is in PM, it's also in spearmint and in saw palmetto and in many things... It's a receptor blocker, but it's fairly weak and is fairly generalized in what receptors it'll bind to... It certainly helps, but it's hardly something to rely on.
Hey Abi Drew,
Thank you so much for elaborating and making it clearer!
And I did read what you typed. I'm relatively new to NBE herbs, so it's still hard for me to make clear connections between different terms when I don't have prior knowledge of them. >.<
You mentioned that "Spearmint is a powerful receptor antagonist against primarily the androgen receptors at hair follicles". How does that relate to NBE exactly? I assume it's to prevent hair loss on the head, or is it meant to prevent facial and body hair growth?
I have always wondered why some women add anti-androgen, especially Saw Palmetto, into the regime if they mainly just take phytoestrogens, phytoprogestin, and prolactin for growth.
The primary purpose of any anti-androgen is to prevent the androgens from interfering.
Spearmint is useful for ALL the things you said, plus preventing the testosterone receptors in your breasts from reducing breast size. Yes. There are testosterone receptors in your breasts. There are all sorts of receptors in breast tissue actually, and it's essentially the same in both men and women. The difference between what happens there between men and women is entirely due to the differences in our hormonal soup.
Women who use saw palmetto and actually get anything from it have such a severe overproduction of androgens and so little aromatization that they actually end up with measurable amounts of dihydrotestosterone in their systems. A hormone normally only associated with men. That's the ONLY reason for ANYONE to take saw palmetto. No one else should need to touch it.
So men pursuing NBE or women with such an imbalance as I mentioned above (usually due to PCOS) MAY benefit from saw palmetto...
But almost anyone may benefit from spearmint. And even if it does nothing for you personally regarding androgen blockage, it does many other beneficial things.
There's of course many other classes of anti-androgens, but in the main, you should not need to worry yourself over any others.
Thanks for the clear explanation. It makes a lot of sense to me now. Had no idea spearmint is so beneficial for feminine purposes. I thought they just smell good. xD
Brb buying myself a package of spearmint leaves. If my boobs somehow don't respond well to the herbs regime, hopefully the body hair will.
What is the best source of and best way to ingest spearmint?