[esther85]

Hmm, so I was at work today and suddenly a few questions came to my mind.:idea:

I just don't understand how BO really works. And how it is progesteron based..I know that UB contains Wild Yam. BUT: I read in many articles that WY cannot be converted to progesteron by the body itself, this can only be done in the lab. So why adding the WY?? I know that WY is also used as a herb for NBE, but not because of the progesteron...

So I am just wondering where the progesterone comes in..maybe your body starts producing it on its own under the influence of the BO itself? But HOW???

MMM I am confused

[Hazel]

BO is a type of glandular therapy. Glandular therapy is a treatment that works by providing the body with glandular material from another animal. It proposes that the gland with problems can be treated this way because the supplements have the same components. BO has components in it that are found in human ovaries. So it will help our ovaries communicate to the pituitary and tell the body to grow breasts.

I believe they say BB is progesterone based because there is some pituitary gland substance in their pills. But I believe this is a small amount.

To my understanding, you are right about WY. The diosgenin in WY can't be converted into progesterone by the body, it is done in a lab. There are some sites that say diosgenin acts like progesterone, but I've found that this is not true. Even though the structure of diosgenin is similar, the functioning is different. Diosgenin is a phytoestrogen in its natural form, so it might not be a good idea to mix it with BO

[esther85]

Thanks Hazel, for replying and helping me understand a bit better. It is more about helping your own ovaries to produce the right hormones (for breast growth) and that's maybe why it also helps in reducing menstrual cramping?

I guess it's the pituary gland I have to look into to understand the progesterone thing better.

[Suri]

I don't think the progesterone effect has anything to do with the pituitary. The pituitary doesn't contain or produce progesterone. It releases tropic hormones which stimulate your endrocrine glands to produce hormones. So its effect on progesterone production is an indirect and mediate one.

Progesterone is produced in the ovaries and in smaller parts in the adrenal gland. Thus it's more likely that the progesterone effect comes directly from the progesterone that the dried bovine ovaries contain. It probably also contains estrogen and other hormones. The question is in what ratio. That would pretty much depend on the phase of the cycle the animal was in when it died. On one page that is selling several products containing various dried glands, it said in the description that all glands are from "neonatal" animals (means day 1 - 3) except for the dried ovaries. The reason is supposedly the absence of sufficient amounts of ovarian tissue. I'd assume that it is much rather the absence of a mature cycle and hormone production.

I think the main effect in BO comes from the hormones that the glands still contain. At least that's one possible explanation (which I personally think makes the most sense). But I guess we're never gonna know for sure since none of the sellers bother to supply any solid explanation backed up by science.

[Hazel]

I though the pituitary had a direct effect on progesterone production, my bad. I read more on the pituitary. The pituitary produces the hormones LH and FSH in response to low levels of progesterone or estrogen. These hormones tell the ovaries to produce progesterone or estrogen respectively. So it works both ways. The estrogen and progesterone hormones in the dried ovaries and the LH and FSH in the pituitary that tell your own ovaries to produce estrogen and progesterone work together.

So i came up with a theory. If BO works this way, it increases hormone levels in your body. Thus the pituitary will be informed and will tell your body to stop producing these hormones. So you will be running on hormones provided by BO. At the beginning of the program, you will have high levels of hormones, and later on when the production shuts down, effects will slow down. On the BB forums, many women reported growth at the beginning, but now have stopped. A break with a liver cleanse will start up the process from the beginning. So we can grow in steps, not continuously.

I'm still trying to learn how this would work, but this is what I have so far.

[Suri]

I though the pituitary had a direct effect on progesterone production, my bad. I read more on the pituitary. The pituitary produces the hormones LH and FSH in response to low levels of progesterone or estrogen. These hormones tell the ovaries to produce progesterone or estrogen respectively. So it works both ways. The estrogen and progesterone hormones in the dried ovaries and the LH and FSH in the pituitary that tell your own ovaries to produce estrogen and progesterone work together.

This is absolutely right. However this only happens if the right amounts of hormones are produced at the right time. Hormone production in the ovaries is very delicate. For example an LH production at the beginning of the cycle that is too high inhibits the growth of the follicles. It also directly stimulates the production of testosterone in the theca cells which is subsequently converted into estrogen in the granulosa cells. It is FSH which induces the aromatase. If the LH production is relatively high compared to the FSH production it results in excess androgens. The follicle cannot mature and ovulation doesn't take place. But at a certain time during the cycle LH levels need to be very high. LH triggers ovulation and if hormone levels are normal in the first half but the LH fails to rise to significant amounts during mid cycle, ovulation doesn't occur either. LH also stimulates the corpus luteum to produce progesterone during the luteal phase. If those levels are too low the body is not able to sustain a pregnancy. Hormone production in the ovaries can be impaired by many factors. These include excess amounts of cortisol, prolactin or insulin. They directly interfere with the ovaries. But there are other possibilities like high estrogen levels. If there is an excess conversion of precursor hormones to estrogen (in the fatty tissue, the adrenal glands or the liver) this can activate the negative feedback mechanism. The pituitary detects estrogen levels that are too high and shuts down the ovaries. But onla the ovaries can produce 17-ß-estradiol in larger amounts which is the most active and most important estrogen for female health. The other estrogen that is most commonly found is estrone. Estrone is a precursor for 17-ß-estradiol. But it may also be produced in the other aforementioned places where it is not converted to 17-ß-estradiol. It lacks many of the beneficial effects that 17-ß-estradiol has and many researchers associate high levels of it with an increased risk for endometrial and breast cancer.
I think this might be the reason for the many bad side effects that women with estrogen dominance have. Large amounts of "inferior" estrogen and the absence of a stable cycle which results in a lack of progesterone.

So i came up with a theory. If BO works this way, it increases hormone levels in your body. Thus the pituitary will be informed and will tell your body to stop producing these hormones. So you will be running on hormones provided by BO. At the beginning of the program, you will have high levels of hormones, and later on when the production shuts down, effects will slow down. On the BB forums, many women reported growth at the beginning, but now have stopped. A break with a liver cleanse will start up the process from the beginning. So we can grow in steps, not continuously.

I'm still trying to learn how this would work, but this is what I have so far.

This is a possibility. But only if the amounts of hormones are high enough to trigger negative feedback. Up to a certain amount it might very well do the opposite and cause positive feedback to occur. There is also a possibility that the hormones build up and while they were low enough in the beginning to trigger positive feedback they are now too high and the ovaries cease production. This is also quite common with herbs (stalling) and it might be due to the fact that those hormones don't have the identical chemical structure as the hormones that the body produces. If you imagine the hormone as a key and its receptor site as the lock (simplified image) those foreign hormonal substances act similar but not the same, more like a picklock or skeleton key. So they have the tendency to build up (especially if taken in high amounts) and since they are not broken down they stay there and emit their negative side effects and inhibit the feedback system. That's why a cleanse every once in a while is a very good idea.
I think you are right so far. The only thing that bothers me is that with BO you never know what amounts of hormones you get. That should depend on the phase of the menstrual cycle that the ovary was in. I don't know if they have a standardized time of cycle in which the ovaries are taken out. If not I guess the hormone levels would vary. If the BO product further contains pituitary like BB does you would probably get certain amounts of FSH and LH which might help your hypothalamus to stimulate ovarian hormone production. But then again I'm quite skeptical about how much you get out of it and since the hormonal balance that is needed for functioning ovaries is so delicate I'm kind of doubtful as to whether this is such a good idea.
It obviously works for many women. But maybe they were just lucky enough to have the right hormonal profile for it. For me, too much of how it works remains unclear and shady.
:-/

[esther85]

Thanks Suri and Hazel, for all the information!!

Hazel: "The pituitary produces the hormones LH and FSH in response to low levels of progesterone or estrogen"

Do you think only pituitary gland would also work, since it would stimulate your body to produce the hormones you are low on (if I understand correctly)?

Suri, you seem to know a lot about medical stuff. Would you happen to understand how BO seems to relieve menstrual cramping in many women?
I am tempted to try BO after I am done with progesterone cream just to relieve my endometriosis and pain. If it will enlarge my breasts along the way I won't complain obviously

[Hazel]

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think anyone tried growing with just pituitary. But the pituitary monitors more than the sex hormones. You might get unwanted side effects from using large amounts. Like Suri said, the material that is in these supplements depend on the condition the cows were in when the glands were extracted.

[Suri]

Thanks Suri and Hazel, for all the information!!

Hazel: "The pituitary produces the hormones LH and FSH in response to low levels of progesterone or estrogen"

Do you think only pituitary gland would also work, since it would stimulate your body to produce the hormones you are low on (if I understand correctly)?

Suri, you seem to know a lot about medical stuff. Would you happen to understand how BO seems to relieve menstrual cramping in many women?
I am tempted to try BO after I am done with progesterone cream just to relieve my endometriosis and pain. If it will enlarge my breasts along the way I won't complain obviously

I agree with Hazel there. The pituitary typically contains other hormones as well. One example is ACTH which will in turn stimulate the adrenal glands to produce cortisol and other corticosteroids. While this might be good if you're suffering from adrenal fatigue, it might be bad if you already have stress hormone levels that are quite high. And again we don't know in what quantities and ratios these hormones occur.
If you only took pituitary then your ovaries would have to produce all the hormones themselves. I doubt that the pills contain the exact ratios that are necessary to induce a normal ovarian cycle (because they change during the cycle, the pills don't). It's probably more of a support if your pituitary hormones are too low.

I don't know why BO would reduce menstrual cramping because we still don't know for sure what's in it. I guess that if you are suffering from some hormone deficiency and the BO product happens to contain a ratio that is good for you it might result in alleviation of some of your problems.

If you take into account that estrogen is the hormone that is absolutely necessary for breast growth but some women suffer from estrogen dominance (or progesterone deficiency), BO would certainly be a better choice because it naturally ALSO contains some progesterone.

Estrogen is so important because it causes cell growth. Without estrogen you won't grow. Progesterone on the other hand causes cells to mature.

So I guess you would also need certain amounts of progesterone in order to avoid proliferation and maybe to make your results more permanent and avoid shrinking back.

However you should make sure to limit your progesterone intake. High progesterone levels have a catabolic effect on body proteins. This can result in an excess breakdown of protein and muscle tissue. Not very good if you're trying to enlarge your breasts I'd say.

Again it depends on your hormonal profile. If you have low estrogen and normal progesterone levels, supplementing extra progesterone should be very counterproductive. If you have extremely low progesterone levels you might very well benefit from it.
Why are you taking progesterone? Are you deficient? Do you feel better taking it? If so, BO might be a better choice for you than just herbs.

[esther85]

Hazel and Suri, I think you're right about the pituitary since we don't know exactly what's in it and also because it will affect our bodies in a lot more ways.

Suri, I am taking Progesterone cream to alleviate my endometriosis. I have been taking it this month for the first time, from day 6 of my cycle and right now I am at day 16 (so it's only been 10 days). I am supposed to take it until day 26. And repeat this for about 4 months. After that, I should use the progesterone from day 12 until 26 (something like that, need to look that up).

So far, I must say that I feel a lot better. My last cycle was DRAMA, the pain was unbearable during my period and my emotions were a rollercoaster for 2 1/2 weeks. The fact that I am doing better now, might be just because I am in a different phase of my cycle, but it might also be due to the progesterone. It is too soon to tell if it is working. Strangely enough, my boobs seem to have grown. Or maybe just swollen because of the progesterone cream, I don't know. But definately more than 1 cm bigger than 10 days ago:exclamation:

I have tried herbs before, but couldn't tolerate them (no sexdrive, extremely agitated and emotional, period 2 weeks late, etc. Definately the estrogen!) I wouldn't go back on herbs. If anything, then I would try BO. Btw, I did feel herbs would have worked boob-wise, I started to have soreness after about 10 days on the normal dose, but then I started cutting back because I felt so bad and after 6 weeks I gave up.

But for now I hope the progesterone will help.