19-02-2016, 03:13 PM
The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007 at 2:44 PM mountainkat (Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
I have tried sooo many breast enhancement products and nothing has worked. Ready to give up, I wanted to get to the bottom of my problem so I ordered a hormonal test for my estrodial and testosterone levels, since I knew I had too much of one of these, but many of my symptoms fit under both categories.
I finally got my results back yesterday and I found that I have...drums please......... excess androgens (testosterone) and I mean EXCESS!
To anyone who has ance and oily skin, this is also most likely your case.
My estrogen levels were low, normal for a pre-menopausal woman and my testosterone levels were, get this.. the normal range is 16-55 pg/ml for any age of woman, 55 being high/normal. My level was 84 pg/ml!!! That is ridicoulosly HIGH!!!
Now I know why 4 months of nuperk, 7 months of bountiful breast, 2 months of Lucille's Flat2Fab program, and 1 month of Natureday has not worked for me. I have not got any fullness, a single twitch of grow or anything!
I would really appreciate it if you girls would help give me some good advice on lowering my excess testosterone. I have heard of zinc, and vitex, and saw palmetto. I have already tried maximum dosages of the saw palmetto for 3 months and my didn't improve one lick! I have also thought about trying stinging nettle root. The vitex helped my acne a little, but not a whole lot. My lab results also said that I may need to lower refined carbs because that can cause excess androgens in women.
I believe having so much testosterone will stop estrogen from entering into your receptor cites because the testosterone is locked into the cells and unless you remove them, no breast product will work for you. I now know why I am sooo skinny and cannot gain fat anywhere on my womanly areas, just my stomach. My body really needs some balancing!
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Tessie
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Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 3:18 PM
Can't the doctor give you something to lower the testosterone? Why do you have to figure out how to do that yourself?
mountainkat
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Tessie...
April 1 2007, 3:32 PM
I would love for a doctor to be able to lower my excess testosterone, but I don't beleive they can. Anyone can correct me if you know otherwise. All they can do is prescribe estrogen birth control and as far as I know, that increases your estrogen, but does not decrease your testosterone levels. I beleive they only way you can do it is by your diet or maybe something someone else can recommend?
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 4:03 PM
you sound like a person with PCOS and there are txs for this. So you may need to see an endocrinologist or GYN, not just your primary care doctor. Hope this helps.
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 4:32 PM
I have high androgens as well. When I first found out my doctor prescribed me birth control pills, there are three or so that lower androgen levels too, yasmin does and diane too as far as I know, so that is an option, just not a very healthy one, and it never completely helped me.
Try taking the SP, in your case I would maybe go for the extract so you don't have to take so many pills, I have still a huge supply of both extract and normal pills, if you want I can sell you those for a discount price, I am never going to use them again I don't think. I am not using them anymore because I went back on the pill and it may interact with that, so I am using nettle instead.
I also have found nettle root to be more effective for myself, but there seems to be some controversy surrounding if it really helps with BE. I have grown using it, so my vote is yes but you have to try yourself. I don't need as high dosages as I did of the SP and less side effects too, no weight gain etc which is great as I put it all on my tummy and thighs with the SP.
If you take the SP take about 3000mg berries a day, or about 300 mg of extract should be about right. You should try lower dosages first and ramp up to see how much you need.
With the Nettle you need somewhat less, I take up to 1000mg just now.
Let me know if you want the SP and I'll give you my e-mail address.
Good luck!!!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 4:41 PM
Ok I have loads of questions:
Firstly , were you 'clean' when you had the tests done, were you off all herbs and external hormones for at least a few weeks??
Which online test did you buy and how much was it?
Did you test only estrogen and androgens?
How oily were your hair? For example, my hair gets quite oily by the third day after washing, when does yours?
How much acne did you have? Where exactly, over several body parts or only face? Did you have cystic acne??
As for your NBE, think of this - you know now what the problem to your lack of growth was, this means that you have rather good chances of growing. I think all of us here know only more of the basic, how to lower slight to moderate elevated androgens, but not how to lower extremely high androgens. But I can tell you this - nettle is stronger than SP, deffinitely use nettle. Google and find out for other herbs and potential ways to solve the problem, as many as possible. Good luck!
Fawn
(Login fawnmarie)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 5:48 PM
Do you have PCOS as well?
You might want to get this checked out. The things off the top of my head I can think of are:
saw palmetto - up to 7 grams per day
reduce carbohydrates
increase progesterone
check temperatures - testosterone requires a certain body temp to aromatase into estrogen. The enzyme needs heat to function, and testosterone is a precursor to estrogen. If your body temperature is low due to a thyroid disfunction, that may have an effect. Check temps three times a day, over three days and average out. If you are coming in at below 97 you may need to address your thyroid as well. Add kelp (iodine) to your diet to increase thyroid function.
If you have insulin resistant type PCOS, your doctor can prescribe glucophage which should improve things.
Also, yes - there are bc pills that work like saw palmetto, yasmin is one of them, and you could look into that.
Fawn
lassysam
(Login lassysam)
SENIOR MEMBER
Welcome Fawn!
April 1 2007, 6:04 PM
I am happy to see you posting here! We can use your good advice!
I have also heard of doctors prescribing spironolactone to counter the testosterone, but it has side effects and should be looked into carefully probably. I've heard of female athletes taking it along with DHEA. The DHEA helps with their athletic performance and the Spironolactone helps counter the testosterone effect of the DHEA. But why are people warning against it? Can it really be dangerous? Or could it be a possible help for some? Does anyone know anything about Spironolactone?
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 9:06 PM
Thanks for all of your replys! Here are the answers to your questions:
Do I have PCOS? I am not sure but my mother did have cysts on her ovaries so there could be a chance.
How long was I off of other herbs? Well only about 1 week but that shouldn't have made a difference. If any difference it would have made my estrogen levels high on my test because I was taking estrogen based herbs, and my estrogen levels were low on the test.
Which online test did I buy? I bought the testmyhormones.com test kit, $70.00
I tested only estrodial and androgens.
How oily were your hair? For example, my hair gets quite oily by the third day after washing, when does yours? My hair gets oily after 2 days if I do not wash it. My skin gets oily and shiny about an hour after I wash it if I do not use powder.
How much acne did you have? Where exactly, over several body parts or only face? Did you have cystic acne?? I have ance on my face and back, and i'm not sure what cystic acne is but I know that when I mash them they take a while to go away and leave dark spots. I also have many blackheads on my nose and forehead...eww right?
I will look into the nettle root and zinc. I don't believe the SP worked for me because I was taking 1,000-2,000 mgs. a day I believe for a month and my acne did not improve one bit. Thanks for everyone's help. I am afriad to take any medication from the doctor as I believe trying to cure things natural is much more healthy in the long run.
Thanks again!
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
P.S.
April 1 2007, 9:16 PM
I forgot to mention in my above post that my temp. has been low, around 97.9 on average to Fawn. I don't believe it is related to my thyroid because I have trouble gaining weight anywhere except my stomach. I have read that adrenal gland insufficiency can cause low body temp also, and I have been very stressed the past couple of years.
When I get enough money saved up I am going to buy a hormonal test kit for my thryoid and adrenal glands too.
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 2:44 AM
Katrina
Thanks to your post I`m getting closer to solving the puzzle about why I didn`t grow with herbs. I also have acne on my face and back and always suspected excess testostrone. I tried tobustan for 2 months with no results, then tried surf`s program with fenugreek, saw palmetto and EPO for 2 months and gained weight, got more acne and stopped.
I have been using vitex for over 2 months now. During these 2 months I also took nettle for about 20 days but stopped cause nettle stopped the tingling I was getting from taking vitex. Believe it or not my acne is clearing! It`s clearing very slowly. I`m getting less breakouts and the old blemishes are healing. I`m glad I took feary`s advice and stick with vitex. There are other girls on this forum whose acne also cleared with vitex.
Ok, let`s say you stop taking everything and take vitex only and your acne starts to clear in a couple of months, good news right? Yes great news but how will you grow breasts now if vitex doesn`t grow them? That is the big question I have in my mind now. I`m very happy that my acne is clearing and my extremely oily skin has much less oil but my breasts are not growing. in 2 more months if my breasts don`t at least begin to feel fuller I have to figure out a way to grow them.
I personally don`t recommend saw palmetto or nettle to you for your excess androgens cause I used them both and they did nothing!(SP caused weight gain)
I have to choose a path to grow breasts without causing breakouts meaning without raising my testostrone levels again. And I want to be able to stay on vitex cause I now if I stop acne will come back.
If I have low estrogen levels like you why did SP+FG+EPO gave me acne? Was it EPO that gave me acne or was it the estrogen in FG that caused the breakout?Feary said whenever she took EPO she had a breakout the next day.
Katrina I have an idea. I have a bottle of fenugreek. I`ll start taking it along with vitex to see what extra estrogen does to me?Since my acne is under control that probably means so is my androgen levels. Let`s see what will happen with fenugreek+ vitex. If I start to get acne I`ll let you know.If I don`t get acne that could mean you can use vitex to get your androgens under control first and then start with a new NBE program(without dropping vitex) What do you think? Best wishes....
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 6:33 AM
wow i feel u are talking about me
oily skin - yes
greasy hair - the secound day i wake up
acne - back permanently and face occasionally here and there
excess hair - embarrassing but i have few even on chest area
my experience:
sawpalemetto helped me good, acne diminshed almost and excess hair growed slower(legs) but i had enourmous foodcravings which i didn't like. didnt want to lose my proportions (no bust no bum)
nettleroot i cant' say if its doing anything or not, really can't. my face is not as clear as with sawpalmetto. Been on it for 3 months now though.
vitex i was taking during my break for few months and strange i had severe pains in armpits during the night. got scrared cos right after it i had lymphatic disorder. no idea if connected or not.
Anyway i think it's fantastic your discovery cos there are probably many of us with the same problem. i just dont know what to do. something tells me to go back to salpalmetto cos it obviously lowered androgens but i so much hate to have big bum and no breasts. but maybe the nettle takes longer to start to work properly dont know. it's just Lisa and others saying nettle works better and i trust them though my own experience tells different. another thing is i have missed my fennel for weeks now and only take the nettle but i still have pains (occasionally but still pains). so could it be lowering androgens be enough for me?
sorry about my long input but i believe we also learn from others experience and hopefully it is of help.
Bonnette
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 7:59 AM
About acne breakouts, you can get that when your hormones get thrown out of balance, so when you make a drastic change. At last so it was with me, I stopped BCP for a month and when I wasn't on it, I didn't get acne, but when I started it again, I broke out hugely. So it could be when you change your routine drastically. Melosh, think that could be your case?
About vitex and how to grow with it, I'm starting to get these rather crazy ideas, well cause it hasn't been tried out before, of a routine that is set so that it changes with days, so that you combine actions of herbs that can't act together (vitex supposedly can't act well with other herbs). For example, I decided that my routine will have a two day brake every five days, so I don't take any herbs on weekends. That's because my body gets used really fast. Just to see what happens. If vitex was the only thing that sucessfully lowers testosterone, but isn't estrogenic enoguh, then maybe a variant of such changing routine would work, I dunno...
This message has been edited by -Moon- on Apr 2, 2007 8:01 AM
valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 10:31 AM
ok, this really worries me. I have the exact symptomps of excess androgen described above and...I'm on wu for 2 months with NO result. help
what should I do ?
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 11:51 AM
Not sure if this will help you, but yes saw palmetto is the best herb to block testerone, but off course not everyone can take it cause it does cause weight gain when taken with the other herbs, fenugreek, red clover and wild yam. stinging nettle is also suppose to work, but other herbs not usually mentioned here that are suppose to block testerone are Pygeum and Pumpkin seed oil. Also do searches on herbs in regards to prostrate inflammation, whatever a man would use for this, would be good for women with excess testerone. Good luck!
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Melosh and other girls...
April 2 2007, 10:33 PM
I'm glad I can be of some help in others seeing why they might now be growing as well. It would be great, Melosh, if I could have someone who has the same hormonal imbalances as me to team up with to try to find some cures for excess androgens. It seems like SP and Nettle root are the most popular, but what I have noticed it that one might work for one person and not for another. I wish I knew why. SP didn't help me one bit with my acne or oily skin. I also have a THEORY that SP can hinder some people from growing because it binds to your receptor cites in your breasts without acting as an estrogen and therefore, can take up a lot of space that other estrogen would like to attach to get you to growing. Anyone else thought of this before?
Maybe it would be a good idea for us who are taking Vitex to also take one estrogenic herb on the side just to see if that would help.
I have also seriously thought about cutting out all sugar and white bread, as I have heard from many experts that in itself if enough to trigger androgen production in women.
I have also considered looking into St. Herb, which I have read on this forum is the most potent estrogenic product out there for breast enhancement along with the cream. Maybe some of us do need a LOT of estrogen to grow breasts because of our high testosterone level.
Keep the faith girls...look at me. I have been at this over 2 years and I have not given up. I am actually happy that I have gotten to the root of my problem and now I can look for ways of fixing it.
Any future help would be appreciated. Thanks!
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 2:43 AM
Moon
When I was taking FG+SP+EPO I immediately got more acne than usual and it kept on gettin worse as long as I used it(2 months) and as soon as I stopped my acne went back to normal levels. So something in that combo was giving me more acne than usual.
Katrina, there`s one thing with me that makes me think that I may not have high levels of estrogen.(I may even have it low just like you) I don`t get PMS. My periods are not crampy and they`re not heavy. How about you? If you`re the same than I`ll definately say I must be high in androgens and low on estrogen just like you. By the way I thought about something. Fearycat is similar to us. She has grown a lot on mirifem cream and the pill. She also says mirifem helped with her skin. She has used them for 4 months and grown 3 inches with them. The only downside she says is when she was on mirifem she was getting real bad period cramps. But mirifem hasn`t given her more acne but has actually helped with it. I`m thinking about using both the cream and the pill. But can I use them with vitex is the question.Feary hasn`t been around since last friday, I already wrote her a message about this. Let`s see what she says and I`ll let you know. One thing though, feary, if I remember correctly has always had period cramps, that could mean she was high in estrogen and when she supplied her body with more estrogen she grew. Since we`re low on estrogen we may need a higher dose to grow. But since she had acne she possibly also had high androgens but PM worked on her anyway!Maybe it could work on us too! How long have you been taking vitex and do you take anything else with it? I have been taking it for about 2.5 months and my acne is slowly clearing. Best wishes....
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 8:17 AM
Katrina, I agree with you on carbs, I have thought to do the same.
Melosh, could it be that FG was what gave you acne? SP is supposed to reduce acne, lol. But then again, it's not unusual that NBE seems totally illigical, we still don't have much of a clue about how it works. Btw, google for acne herbs, I think red clover is one. And zinc is supposed to be really good for acne (a normal dose, I think RDA is established, at extremely high doses however zinc is aromatase inhibitor and we don't want that).
What entrigues me about NBE tho is that the more pytoestrogens you take, the less estrogenic effect you have in your body, because they act instead of your own estrogen, which is stronger. Or so it seems, but there must be some unknown mechanism which makes a difference.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 8:21 AM
PS and kind of off-topic - About my plan to make a two day brake every 5 days - I decided that cause I researched drug tolerance / geting used to drugs (I tried finding info on herb tolerance, but there isn't any) and I found that some drugs which are known to cause tolerance are administrated with such brakes and the tolerance is prevented. So I hope the same goes for herbs.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 1:23 PM
i'm having one of these postperiod moments when all the thought-to-be growth has gone and feel very down asking myself if i will ever have breasts or not.
i like the topic but i admit it's very confusing. im only sure about my excess androgens about estrogen have no idea. i dont have pms but have heavy bleeding and cramps on the first day of my period. What could i make out of this fact?
i started my 3rd month of my secound routine (nettle and fennel but no fennel received yet from Vortexhealth) and hope it's only the beginning. Sad but true have been starting to think about surgery lately as much as i hate having smth unnatural put in me.
About Sawpalmetto.does it have only the fattening (no matter if u eat or not) effect or is it smth more? i remember having enourmous food cravings in the end and thats why i quit. But could it be because i started to grow i needed to eat more? no idea.
i also had a piece in one breasts and got worried but now it seems (not sure) that this piece somehow maybe developed into tissue. Its soft now in the same area. but all the action took place in my bigger one leaving the smaller side with basicly only a nipple
and i so much want to have breasts even if they were cute and small.
sorry about the sad story just needed to let it out.
Bonnette
Buffeee
(Login Buffeeee)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 1:58 PM
Hey Bonette, I'm not so sure that your giving yourself enough chance to grow with just nettle and fennel. What if you try adding a small amount of fenugreek (like 1000-2000mg a day) and take your fennel as a tea? That's what I would do if I were to do herbs again. Fennel tea seems to be a big booster, and I noticed that when I gave in a put a little fenugreek back in my routine, I grew some. Do it for 2 months and then cut out the fenugreek for a month or just take a break (this is to avoid the fat bellies.)
Just a suggestion from what I've experienced.
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
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Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 2:13 PM
This is a good website, it gives dietary advice etc. for excess androgens in women, maybe check that out
http://www.ovarian-cysts-pcos.com/hirsutism.html
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Melosh and Bonnette...
April 3 2007, 8:45 PM
Melosh, I have only been on Vitex for 1 month so far. My acne has improved a little, but I still have oily skin. I think I am going to need some extra help for my high androgen levels. I have always wondered why I was skinnier than most girls my age, even though I eat the same amount of food, the only place it seems to go is my waist. I do have healthy looking legs but, that is because I work out to get muscles there, and my arms have always been pretty skinny. I believe low estrogen levels is the cause now and to high androgens.
Bonnette, as for your cramps, you sound exactly like me. I have cramps the first day or two of my period, but what is strange about mine is that they are in my back and in my pelvis area. They are never in my stomach like most girls. Maybe excess androgens causes this? Also, my periods are very heavy the first few days of my period and then very light. I am a bit confused because I thought this would be caused by too much estrogen, which I appear to lack. So maybe just an imbalance in hormones is what causes cramps and heavy bleeding. I also thought that excess androgens caused you to have late periods, but mine would always be a few days early. So I am still confused about the whole thing.
If anyone is that confused, then I would suggest just going ahead and taking a saliva hormone test like me, that way there will be no more guessing.
I will look into either mirifem or st. herb or maybe also that new soap some girls are talking about s-blossom. These seem to have the most estrogen without the worry of saw palmetto hindering with progress, which some girls have found.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 4 2007, 5:56 AM
thanks Lisa121 the website is of big help
Katrina, it's intriguig u came up with low estrogen instead. because of the cramps and heavy bleeding on first day i was sure for the higher estrogen. but could be of imbalance, dont know.
thats why i also took only a little fennel (3-4 per day) and it seemed to work painwise. and that's what confuses me, i do get pains occasionally but almost every day, mostly after eating or drinking water.
about excess androgens, why is it so? i mean is it just my body doing what it pleases? i dont have sweets at all (not a sweettoe), only wholegrain and everythig quite healthy so there's not much to improve in there.
now was also reading the vitex topic and thought maybe i should be using that. i did for several months but for sur it was not enough. i just hate trying and trying and nothing works.
But i keep trying
Bonnette
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 5 2007, 5:34 PM
Katrina and Bonette
I have been using vitex 1600mg a day for 2.5 months now. My acne is clearing slowly. It did cause an initial shinkage, no growth to report yet. I`m so happy that my acne is clearing even if it doesn`t grow my breasts I won`t drop it.
Other girls who have been using vitex for longer than 3 months already declared vitex as their acne cure. One more month and if I don`t get any breakouts at all I`ll also declare it as my acne cure.
Bonette what was your vitex dosage? Were you taking it reguarly or were you skipping taking it often?
Katrina hang in ther buddy. I`m not growing boobs yet but it seems like vitex is balancing my testostrone levels by increasing my progestrone levels. With high testostrone levels I know I can`t grow.
As I said before SP or nettle did nothing on me. Girls I know you`re getting impatient, so am I. I can only tell you what`s working on me and it seems like vitex is lowering my testostrone levels. I don`t have any active pimples right now. When I don`t get any breakout at all for a month I`ll be posting a big message advising all the girls to use it for high testostrone levels. If you`re using it stick with it and wait just one more month!!
Best wishes to all.
PS. Moon, it could be fenugreek that gave me acne, you`re right. That`s why I`m staying away from estrogenic herbs. I use vitex only, nothing else for NBE. And I`ll try progestrone cream on the 18th day of my cycle which is April 14th. Hugs and kisses to all....
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 5 2007, 6:29 PM
Although EPO is a great oil, remember for some people it can cause severe blemishes and breakouts. I have never read anyone complaining about breakouts with borage.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 6 2007, 9:00 AM
Melosh
i took vitex pills which had 20 mg of extract in it. but i have no idea how strong the extract was. i was then told in the pharmacy that this is the strongest and it really works for irregular periods (i had that problem before NBE). it could be coincidence but one night i might have taken two and next morning i had severe lymphnods in armpits, anyway it never really got solved what caused it but that's another topic. but it still leaves me wonder sometimes if the vitex was about to start to work cos the occasional pains that i got late at night were like oh-my-god. or it could have been some virus i already had in my blood.
why do i always answer so long, sorry
BOnnette
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 7 2007, 8:39 PM
Borage oil would be good to use because it seems to help with aromatase production which would help use testosterone to create estrogen, therefore lowering testosterone.
Singing nettle keeps testosterone from binding to SHBG so you don't want to use that one.
Saw Palmetto keeps testosterone from converting into DHT which is a stronger testosterone, so be sure to use plenty of SP. DHT would be worse!
Vitex mainly works with LH and ends up raising progesterone. Progesterone is earlier in the sex hormone cascade, so if the idea is to lower testosterone this could work, but could also lower estrogen. I wouldn't generally recommend Vitex while doing BE unless they had PCOS or were in menopause, but that's just me.
** Mint Tea (see below) for some reason raises estrogen but lowers androgens. Read the links below. I think this would be a good thing to use in your case.
Mint Tea:
http://www.yorkshire-forward.com/www/vie...ent_id=263
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...nce120.xml
http://herbalscienceresearch.com/keyword/endocrine (slow to load, but eventually does)
Good Luck!
Wahaika
Anonymous
(Login Sarabell239)
So Cool+
April 8 2007, 3:53 AM
Thanks for that great explanation Wahaika!
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 7:22 AM
WOW Wahaika thanks
that could explain why sawpalmetto seemed to work better for me. But the damn hunger i get from it.
Bonnette
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 12:12 PM
This is what I found on Nettle root, this topic intrigues me since both SP and Nettle seem to help with my androgen related symptoms, but Nettle seemed to be much more effective in my case, at much lower dosages too.
Seems like the nettle does several things at the same time.
http://www.health-n-energy.com/ARTICLES/chrysin.htm
"A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site.
The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement.
Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.
Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head."
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 12:35 PM
Lisa 121
are u using Vortexhealth nettleroot or something stronger in extract form?
i feel so confused now not knowing which one to prfer.
Bonnette
Lisa121
(no login)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 4:17 PM
Hi Bonnette, I am using the vortexhealth one. I know how you feel, all this stuff about the Nettle vs SP has totally confused me too.
I don't like taking the SP and it really didn't help well with me unless I took really high dosages and the nettle seems perfect in comparison. The way I know is because of my high androgen levels I always sweat a lot, I mean even my hands do. When I take the nettle the sweatiness is greatly reduced. It goes up again with taking Fenugreek, but works wonders on its own. The SP never did that, not at the dosages that I felt were safe to take anyway, plus I got cellulite on my bum and thighs.
I am sticking with the Nettle myself, I grew as well with it as I did on the SP so in my book it can't be that much worse than the SP.
I guess you have to see and try for yourself, try out different dosages, ramp up or down, try taking the highest and lowest dosage etc. and see what works for you.
When I stop the whole NBE thing I will definitely take the vitex again on its own this time, maybe that will help balance my hormones more permanently, if it doesn't I know that the nettle helps.
Good luck!
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Mint...
April 8 2007, 6:17 PM
that is interesting about the mint lowering testosterone and is really a new study that has been talked about on the news lately. I think I will also try that out. Maybe it can help lower andgrogens without taking up space in receptor cites in the breasts like saw palmetto does.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 8:20 PM
Lisa 121
that's very interesting about the sweating. i never noticed that. in fact i started to sweat when on herbs specially on sawpalmetto. i have taken nettle since the end of January and i can tell it doesnt help with acne as sawpalmetto did. but it could also be that it doesnt mean it's not working breastwise. i remember reading that NBE means having breakouts just like in buberty. honestly i dont know. i just dont like the hunger and yes cellulitis when i took sawpalmetto. at fist it was good since i was underweight and nothing seemed to help but then later (after few months) i started to feel i cant control myself.
spearmint is something new to experiment, i checked the websites Wahaika suggested and it was recomended to use in follicular phase. will try next month.
what is interesting that the pains with nettle and sawpalmetto are different. now with nettle they are occasional and after lunch usually. and most weird anytime i have a bit of alcohol. i get tipsy very easily so i really dont drink ( halg a glass of wine) that much but the pains i get are strong then. was about to make a thread about asking others.
Lisa, how much u take the phytoestrogens now?
i just want so much to figure out my breastgrowing puzzle
Bonnette
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 8:21 PM
Hi Katrina
I`m sorry I couldn`t get back to you with info about what we talked about last night. My pc chrushed several times and now it takes forever for web pages to open so it`s very hard for me to surf the net. Let me post a message to see if other girls have any knowledge. As far as I know when a women begins to gain massive amounts of muscle her testo levels go up.
I`m not sure about esto converting to testo or other way around but whenever I took estrogenic herbs i had a terrible breakout within a few days. Therefore I wanted to worn you about taking estrogenic herbs so you don`t get more acne(gosh I`m so afraid of breaking out, every new acne I get stays around for 4-5 months therefore getting even one new acne is like hell breaking loose on me)Good luck, hugs and kisses...
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 9 2007, 12:23 PM
Hi Bonnette, the sweating is certainly worse on Fenugreeek. The same with the puberty spots, I always had acne since I started puberty, the pill somehow helped a bit but it never went away completely. As for the effectiveness of either SP or nettle for preventing that I can't tell because I haven't used either for a longer period on it's own without the Fenugreek, and the Fenugreek certainly makes me break out a LOT. As we are trying to mimic puberty and the hormones that are in our system then it makes sense that we would break out while at least being on the phytoestrogenic herbs.
I am on the slim side too and the sp increased my hunger as well, a reason why I don't like taking it either, even though I could do with putting on some weight at the moment. I don't like it because it seems to put the weight to the butt thigh areas, and not anywhere else.
I am trying to drink a cup of spearmint/camomile tea (the only one I could find in my healthstore) a day, I don't always manage, got a lot of stuff on at the moment and this is all so time consuming. I didn't know about using it in the follicular phase, I will maybe look into it and give it a try too, although I am not sure if I will manage to remember. :-) when the time comes. :-)
I don't drink alcohol either, it causes my stomach hassle and I don't like getting drunk, but since you are saying this, at new years I had a glass of wine and I felt tingles in my boobs too. I have no idea why that would be either, I wondered about it too since alcohol is meant to be bad for NBE.
I am taking between 610 mg of Fenugreek two to three times a day, I am experimenting with my routine at the moment, but since being on the pill I generally don't exceed that dose. It is good too because my sweat doesn't smell so much of it at the lower dosages.
Good luck,
Lisa
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 9 2007, 6:43 PM
thanks Lisa121
at least the spearmint is something nice to add to our routines.
one more thing. as i understood u are on bcp now? do u still need to take the nettle with it? i have some packages of Diane left from the times of my ex and wondering if they could work just as well as nettle and sawpalmetto. i never was on pill longer than half a year so i dont know if they work against the androgens. i just so much hate to take the chemicals.
Happy growing
Bonnette
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 9 2007, 8:23 PM
Hi Bonette, yes, I am on BCP, have been on and off since I was 14 or 15 prescribed by my doctor in order to regulate the androgens. I am on yasmin just now, I understand Diane is similar in its anti androgenic properties. You could try and take it again, but with me the pill never really made that much of a difference.
I get pretty bad mood swings when I am not taking anything, the pill helps regulate those, but besides that it never done that much. It improves my acne some I believe, but since it takes about half a year to take effect it is hard to tell with other factors such as stress, diet and the herbs. The pill never helped with the sweatiness or any of the other symptoms, and I was glad when I found out about SP and Nettle because before I thought I would have to take bcp for the rest of my life just to regulate the terrible moods.
Depending on how much your hormones are out of whack it may do the trick for you, I prefer the herbs any day though, and when I got tested my androgen levels were not much above the maximum.
I am on the pill for contraceptive reasons, otherwise I wouldn't bother with it and just take the Nettle instead. I do seem to have to take less of all the herbs though, since being on the pill much lower Fenugreek levels seem to work and I think the same goes for the Nettle.
You really have to decide for yourself.
Black Sheep
(Login Lorelii)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
June 29 2007, 6:29 AM
Just thought I would bump this thread to see how you are going? :-)
Loreli x
Black Sheep
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
June 29 2007, 2:48 PM
Hey Lorelii, thanks for asking. It's been a while since I've updated, but I am definitely working on it. I have changed my diet just recently, cutting out all sugar, caffine, and refined carbohydrates. I am trying to eat only meats and vegetables alone with a small amount of fruits to get my protein and carbohydrates. I truly believe this will help to lower my androgen levels (as refined carbohydrates and excess sugar raises insulin levels and stimulates the ovaries to overproduce male hormones) and hopefully balance my estrogen. I am also trying to lower my stress levels by worrying less because excess stress for so many years has exhausted my adrenal glands and I feel very tired a lot. Since I have cut out sugar I already notice a difference. I feel energized most of the day and I woke up this morning at 6:45 a.m. without an alarm feeling great! I usually want to sleep until 9:00 a.m. and still feel tired.
I just put in an order a couple of days ago for St. Herb breast enhancement pills and I will try that alone with massage. It is supposed to be the closest to mimicking estrogen compared to other herbs, and I've tried just about everything. So I will see how this goes and if I get results off of this product, trust me, I will let everyone know!
Are you on a program and if so how is it going?
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Huh...??
June 29 2007, 2:50 PM
I don't know why the above post logged me in as Black Sheep, but I am Katrina! I've never had that to happen before!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
June 29 2007, 6:07 PM
Katrina, the sheep are random login names instead of annonymous for when you don't type anything in the name box.
I have the same problem as you, I think, tho I haven't had a test done, but I have all the signs of high androgens. I also think that might be the reason I haven't had sucess with NBE for so long. I'm also cutting down on shuggar and carbs, not entirely, but reducing greately. From bread I only eat wholewheat and just little of it. I'm taking a BCP for this problem also - estrogens themselves lower androgens and my BCP also contains androgen blockers. I also take a high dose of nettle. I hope this all helps getting my androgen levels down. It's interesting what you write that you feel more entergised since cutting out shuggar. I have always been very tired so I will try to do the same. Anyway, good luck on your future NBE journeys!
Loreli
(Login Lorelii)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
July 19 2007, 11:17 AM
Hi Kat!
Yes i am on a NBE program, the reason i asked about yours is because i think i have excess androgens too. I have excess body hair, acne, oily hair...
I have been on Wonderup for 2 months with no growth at all. I know it's still early days but i have not had one ache, pain or tingle. I also tried grow yours for a few weeks but i started lactating and that scared me so I stopped.
I have also started taking Saw Palmetto to reduce my androgens, but was thinking of switching to birth control to do that.
If Wonder
Have you ever thought of trying Brava? x
Loreli
(Login Lorelii)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
July 19 2007, 11:19 AM
oops i didnt finish what i was typing! i was going to say if wonderup doesnt work for me i might try bountiful breast, but it doesnt give me much hope cos it didnt work for you and we have similar stats!
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
July 19 2007, 2:16 PM
Medical treatment for excess androgens is spironolactone / flutamide / ketoconazole etc, they will usually try you on BCP 1st then add one of the others usually spironolactone, all of the drugs have potential side effects but having the androgen excess can lead to becoming diabetic so if my hormone test shows up results similar to yours I'll be taking anything they can give me.
Best of luck and health and boobs x
ps do you hve PCO? Yo ay be interested in this link for health tips:
http://www.ovarian-cysts-pcos.com/hirsutism.html
Davi Lee
(Login Davi-lee)
Chiming in with some info. ....
July 19 2007, 9:49 PM
Wow,I had no idea that the excess androgen problem was so widespread for women.
Im not sure if anyone mentioned Licorice root extract.
It has anti-androgenic properties and prevents Test. from becoming DHT.
It is supposed to be good for reducing Test. but you have to watch when taking larger amounts of it for long periods as it can cause headaches and rise in blood pressure,sodium and water retention,and potassium deficiency.
Uh..amounts are sketchy,3-4 cups of licorice tea is the max recommended and 2-4 oz. of real licorice based candy is suggested as being a lot of the candy.
Mostly it is said to take it for 6-7 days then rest from it for a couple days.
Of course,monitor yourself and adjust accordingly.
>>In some circles,Androcur(cyproterone acetate)is being mentioned as a good anti-androgen med.
I read a little and you dont have to use very much of it.
Go to Drug.com and see the drug index for its side effects.
>>I have been seeing much about the combo. of Lavender and Tea tree oil as a androgen reducer.I have read that boys and some men have had breast development due to using products that contained both.I know that lavender has estrogenic properties,but it may be the Tea Tree that makes it more effective.Some herbs are potentizers for other herbs.
I bought a bottle of the tea tree extract and it really has a potent smell.That would be the only drawback to it,because it is a good antiseptic.BUT it can cause skin irritation,dilute with some veg.oil.
>>Hops:I mentioned this in another thread,it has the strongest isoflavone of any phytoestrogenic,1/20th the strength of bioestrogen.Im going to start incorporating it into my plan and see what it does.I guess I will try and find hop flowers at a brew supply store and make a tea from it.
Davi Lee
(Login Davi-lee)
OOH some more herbs to try...
July 19 2007, 11:12 PM
I skipped down the thread list and missed that mention about Mints.
Wow,I havent come across that exact info. before seeing what you wrote.
You said its a relatively new discovery?
Thats really exciting because I have a big herb patch full of 2-3 kinds of mints.
Im goin' on the Vitex also.I want to see what it does.
I respond fairly quickly to supplements,so Im excited to see what new ones will do.
I pick fresh red clover blossoms and dry them.
Then I take three or four crushed RC blossoms and add 1 tesp ground fennel seed,and a few leaves of dry Lemon balm.(I read somewhere that Lemon balm <Melissa>,has some estrogenic properties,I may be mistaken)
**If someone would let me know about that I would be grateful.
I also hadnt looked into Borage as a good supplement.THAT is really cool,that it promotes aromatase production,Ive been trying to find some herb that would do that;I knew there was something that could do that.
Thanks everyone for your knowledge pool.
Many lovely heads thinking together are better than one alone!!
Big hugs,Davilee
bridget
(no login)
answer to above
February 23 2009, 1:32 PM
please answer question above
Corinsa
(Login Corinsa)
SENIOR MEMBER
Acne
February 24 2009, 1:18 PM
As bad as this is, I have been getting bad acne on my back recently. I have no idea what herb it could be from, but it's really getting bad! There are a few cystic ones, and a bunch of little ones. Any suggestions on what it could be from? I started a new birth control, Yaz which is supposed to help with acne, and am taking fenugreek, flaxseed oil, nettle root, collagen, fennel, Maca, and EPO. The acne on my face has really cleared up, but the acne on my back is getting worse, yuck!!! Any help??
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
February 24 2009, 2:11 PM
EPO !! EPO can cause breakouts, as well as hormonal fluctuations, which will be happening because of herbs. Another thing that can happen because of hormonal fluckulations is tiny capillary arteries break, which gives a look of tiny , tiny, broken blood vessels on the cheeks of your face. The last one also is age related. For the acne breakouts, maybe drop the EPO and use borage oil instead or Omega3 oil, which is a key ingredient for youthful, healthy complexion.
Zinc is a great supplement for acne breakouts, helps keep clear complexsion. My guess is that your are reacting to the EPO, only one of the side effects it causes, oily skin, headaches are some others.
Corinsa
(Login Corinsa)
SENIOR MEMBER
EPO???
February 25 2009, 2:23 AM
Snowflake, thanks for the suggestion! I actually just doubled my EPO last week because of my acne. I thought I had read on here somewhere that it helped decrease acne, and borage oil made it worse. I am so confused! Time to research...
April 1 2007 at 2:44 PM mountainkat (Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
I have tried sooo many breast enhancement products and nothing has worked. Ready to give up, I wanted to get to the bottom of my problem so I ordered a hormonal test for my estrodial and testosterone levels, since I knew I had too much of one of these, but many of my symptoms fit under both categories.
I finally got my results back yesterday and I found that I have...drums please......... excess androgens (testosterone) and I mean EXCESS!
To anyone who has ance and oily skin, this is also most likely your case.
My estrogen levels were low, normal for a pre-menopausal woman and my testosterone levels were, get this.. the normal range is 16-55 pg/ml for any age of woman, 55 being high/normal. My level was 84 pg/ml!!! That is ridicoulosly HIGH!!!
Now I know why 4 months of nuperk, 7 months of bountiful breast, 2 months of Lucille's Flat2Fab program, and 1 month of Natureday has not worked for me. I have not got any fullness, a single twitch of grow or anything!
I would really appreciate it if you girls would help give me some good advice on lowering my excess testosterone. I have heard of zinc, and vitex, and saw palmetto. I have already tried maximum dosages of the saw palmetto for 3 months and my didn't improve one lick! I have also thought about trying stinging nettle root. The vitex helped my acne a little, but not a whole lot. My lab results also said that I may need to lower refined carbs because that can cause excess androgens in women.
I believe having so much testosterone will stop estrogen from entering into your receptor cites because the testosterone is locked into the cells and unless you remove them, no breast product will work for you. I now know why I am sooo skinny and cannot gain fat anywhere on my womanly areas, just my stomach. My body really needs some balancing!
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Tessie
(no login)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 3:18 PM
Can't the doctor give you something to lower the testosterone? Why do you have to figure out how to do that yourself?
mountainkat
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Tessie...
April 1 2007, 3:32 PM
I would love for a doctor to be able to lower my excess testosterone, but I don't beleive they can. Anyone can correct me if you know otherwise. All they can do is prescribe estrogen birth control and as far as I know, that increases your estrogen, but does not decrease your testosterone levels. I beleive they only way you can do it is by your diet or maybe something someone else can recommend?
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 4:03 PM
you sound like a person with PCOS and there are txs for this. So you may need to see an endocrinologist or GYN, not just your primary care doctor. Hope this helps.
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 4:32 PM
I have high androgens as well. When I first found out my doctor prescribed me birth control pills, there are three or so that lower androgen levels too, yasmin does and diane too as far as I know, so that is an option, just not a very healthy one, and it never completely helped me.
Try taking the SP, in your case I would maybe go for the extract so you don't have to take so many pills, I have still a huge supply of both extract and normal pills, if you want I can sell you those for a discount price, I am never going to use them again I don't think. I am not using them anymore because I went back on the pill and it may interact with that, so I am using nettle instead.
I also have found nettle root to be more effective for myself, but there seems to be some controversy surrounding if it really helps with BE. I have grown using it, so my vote is yes but you have to try yourself. I don't need as high dosages as I did of the SP and less side effects too, no weight gain etc which is great as I put it all on my tummy and thighs with the SP.
If you take the SP take about 3000mg berries a day, or about 300 mg of extract should be about right. You should try lower dosages first and ramp up to see how much you need.
With the Nettle you need somewhat less, I take up to 1000mg just now.
Let me know if you want the SP and I'll give you my e-mail address.
Good luck!!!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 4:41 PM
Ok I have loads of questions:
Firstly , were you 'clean' when you had the tests done, were you off all herbs and external hormones for at least a few weeks??
Which online test did you buy and how much was it?
Did you test only estrogen and androgens?
How oily were your hair? For example, my hair gets quite oily by the third day after washing, when does yours?
How much acne did you have? Where exactly, over several body parts or only face? Did you have cystic acne??
As for your NBE, think of this - you know now what the problem to your lack of growth was, this means that you have rather good chances of growing. I think all of us here know only more of the basic, how to lower slight to moderate elevated androgens, but not how to lower extremely high androgens. But I can tell you this - nettle is stronger than SP, deffinitely use nettle. Google and find out for other herbs and potential ways to solve the problem, as many as possible. Good luck!
Fawn
(Login fawnmarie)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 5:48 PM
Do you have PCOS as well?
You might want to get this checked out. The things off the top of my head I can think of are:
saw palmetto - up to 7 grams per day
reduce carbohydrates
increase progesterone
check temperatures - testosterone requires a certain body temp to aromatase into estrogen. The enzyme needs heat to function, and testosterone is a precursor to estrogen. If your body temperature is low due to a thyroid disfunction, that may have an effect. Check temps three times a day, over three days and average out. If you are coming in at below 97 you may need to address your thyroid as well. Add kelp (iodine) to your diet to increase thyroid function.
If you have insulin resistant type PCOS, your doctor can prescribe glucophage which should improve things.
Also, yes - there are bc pills that work like saw palmetto, yasmin is one of them, and you could look into that.
Fawn
lassysam
(Login lassysam)
SENIOR MEMBER
Welcome Fawn!
April 1 2007, 6:04 PM
I am happy to see you posting here! We can use your good advice!
I have also heard of doctors prescribing spironolactone to counter the testosterone, but it has side effects and should be looked into carefully probably. I've heard of female athletes taking it along with DHEA. The DHEA helps with their athletic performance and the Spironolactone helps counter the testosterone effect of the DHEA. But why are people warning against it? Can it really be dangerous? Or could it be a possible help for some? Does anyone know anything about Spironolactone?
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 1 2007, 9:06 PM
Thanks for all of your replys! Here are the answers to your questions:
Do I have PCOS? I am not sure but my mother did have cysts on her ovaries so there could be a chance.
How long was I off of other herbs? Well only about 1 week but that shouldn't have made a difference. If any difference it would have made my estrogen levels high on my test because I was taking estrogen based herbs, and my estrogen levels were low on the test.
Which online test did I buy? I bought the testmyhormones.com test kit, $70.00
I tested only estrodial and androgens.
How oily were your hair? For example, my hair gets quite oily by the third day after washing, when does yours? My hair gets oily after 2 days if I do not wash it. My skin gets oily and shiny about an hour after I wash it if I do not use powder.
How much acne did you have? Where exactly, over several body parts or only face? Did you have cystic acne?? I have ance on my face and back, and i'm not sure what cystic acne is but I know that when I mash them they take a while to go away and leave dark spots. I also have many blackheads on my nose and forehead...eww right?
I will look into the nettle root and zinc. I don't believe the SP worked for me because I was taking 1,000-2,000 mgs. a day I believe for a month and my acne did not improve one bit. Thanks for everyone's help. I am afriad to take any medication from the doctor as I believe trying to cure things natural is much more healthy in the long run.
Thanks again!
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
P.S.
April 1 2007, 9:16 PM
I forgot to mention in my above post that my temp. has been low, around 97.9 on average to Fawn. I don't believe it is related to my thyroid because I have trouble gaining weight anywhere except my stomach. I have read that adrenal gland insufficiency can cause low body temp also, and I have been very stressed the past couple of years.
When I get enough money saved up I am going to buy a hormonal test kit for my thryoid and adrenal glands too.
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 2:44 AM
Katrina
Thanks to your post I`m getting closer to solving the puzzle about why I didn`t grow with herbs. I also have acne on my face and back and always suspected excess testostrone. I tried tobustan for 2 months with no results, then tried surf`s program with fenugreek, saw palmetto and EPO for 2 months and gained weight, got more acne and stopped.
I have been using vitex for over 2 months now. During these 2 months I also took nettle for about 20 days but stopped cause nettle stopped the tingling I was getting from taking vitex. Believe it or not my acne is clearing! It`s clearing very slowly. I`m getting less breakouts and the old blemishes are healing. I`m glad I took feary`s advice and stick with vitex. There are other girls on this forum whose acne also cleared with vitex.
Ok, let`s say you stop taking everything and take vitex only and your acne starts to clear in a couple of months, good news right? Yes great news but how will you grow breasts now if vitex doesn`t grow them? That is the big question I have in my mind now. I`m very happy that my acne is clearing and my extremely oily skin has much less oil but my breasts are not growing. in 2 more months if my breasts don`t at least begin to feel fuller I have to figure out a way to grow them.
I personally don`t recommend saw palmetto or nettle to you for your excess androgens cause I used them both and they did nothing!(SP caused weight gain)
I have to choose a path to grow breasts without causing breakouts meaning without raising my testostrone levels again. And I want to be able to stay on vitex cause I now if I stop acne will come back.
If I have low estrogen levels like you why did SP+FG+EPO gave me acne? Was it EPO that gave me acne or was it the estrogen in FG that caused the breakout?Feary said whenever she took EPO she had a breakout the next day.
Katrina I have an idea. I have a bottle of fenugreek. I`ll start taking it along with vitex to see what extra estrogen does to me?Since my acne is under control that probably means so is my androgen levels. Let`s see what will happen with fenugreek+ vitex. If I start to get acne I`ll let you know.If I don`t get acne that could mean you can use vitex to get your androgens under control first and then start with a new NBE program(without dropping vitex) What do you think? Best wishes....
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 6:33 AM
wow i feel u are talking about me
oily skin - yes
greasy hair - the secound day i wake up
acne - back permanently and face occasionally here and there
excess hair - embarrassing but i have few even on chest area
my experience:
sawpalemetto helped me good, acne diminshed almost and excess hair growed slower(legs) but i had enourmous foodcravings which i didn't like. didnt want to lose my proportions (no bust no bum)
nettleroot i cant' say if its doing anything or not, really can't. my face is not as clear as with sawpalmetto. Been on it for 3 months now though.
vitex i was taking during my break for few months and strange i had severe pains in armpits during the night. got scrared cos right after it i had lymphatic disorder. no idea if connected or not.
Anyway i think it's fantastic your discovery cos there are probably many of us with the same problem. i just dont know what to do. something tells me to go back to salpalmetto cos it obviously lowered androgens but i so much hate to have big bum and no breasts. but maybe the nettle takes longer to start to work properly dont know. it's just Lisa and others saying nettle works better and i trust them though my own experience tells different. another thing is i have missed my fennel for weeks now and only take the nettle but i still have pains (occasionally but still pains). so could it be lowering androgens be enough for me?
sorry about my long input but i believe we also learn from others experience and hopefully it is of help.
Bonnette
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 7:59 AM
About acne breakouts, you can get that when your hormones get thrown out of balance, so when you make a drastic change. At last so it was with me, I stopped BCP for a month and when I wasn't on it, I didn't get acne, but when I started it again, I broke out hugely. So it could be when you change your routine drastically. Melosh, think that could be your case?
About vitex and how to grow with it, I'm starting to get these rather crazy ideas, well cause it hasn't been tried out before, of a routine that is set so that it changes with days, so that you combine actions of herbs that can't act together (vitex supposedly can't act well with other herbs). For example, I decided that my routine will have a two day brake every five days, so I don't take any herbs on weekends. That's because my body gets used really fast. Just to see what happens. If vitex was the only thing that sucessfully lowers testosterone, but isn't estrogenic enoguh, then maybe a variant of such changing routine would work, I dunno...
This message has been edited by -Moon- on Apr 2, 2007 8:01 AM
valeryblack
(Login valeryblack)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 10:31 AM
ok, this really worries me. I have the exact symptomps of excess androgen described above and...I'm on wu for 2 months with NO result. help
what should I do ?
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 2 2007, 11:51 AM
Not sure if this will help you, but yes saw palmetto is the best herb to block testerone, but off course not everyone can take it cause it does cause weight gain when taken with the other herbs, fenugreek, red clover and wild yam. stinging nettle is also suppose to work, but other herbs not usually mentioned here that are suppose to block testerone are Pygeum and Pumpkin seed oil. Also do searches on herbs in regards to prostrate inflammation, whatever a man would use for this, would be good for women with excess testerone. Good luck!
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Melosh and other girls...
April 2 2007, 10:33 PM
I'm glad I can be of some help in others seeing why they might now be growing as well. It would be great, Melosh, if I could have someone who has the same hormonal imbalances as me to team up with to try to find some cures for excess androgens. It seems like SP and Nettle root are the most popular, but what I have noticed it that one might work for one person and not for another. I wish I knew why. SP didn't help me one bit with my acne or oily skin. I also have a THEORY that SP can hinder some people from growing because it binds to your receptor cites in your breasts without acting as an estrogen and therefore, can take up a lot of space that other estrogen would like to attach to get you to growing. Anyone else thought of this before?
Maybe it would be a good idea for us who are taking Vitex to also take one estrogenic herb on the side just to see if that would help.
I have also seriously thought about cutting out all sugar and white bread, as I have heard from many experts that in itself if enough to trigger androgen production in women.
I have also considered looking into St. Herb, which I have read on this forum is the most potent estrogenic product out there for breast enhancement along with the cream. Maybe some of us do need a LOT of estrogen to grow breasts because of our high testosterone level.
Keep the faith girls...look at me. I have been at this over 2 years and I have not given up. I am actually happy that I have gotten to the root of my problem and now I can look for ways of fixing it.
Any future help would be appreciated. Thanks!
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 2:43 AM
Moon
When I was taking FG+SP+EPO I immediately got more acne than usual and it kept on gettin worse as long as I used it(2 months) and as soon as I stopped my acne went back to normal levels. So something in that combo was giving me more acne than usual.
Katrina, there`s one thing with me that makes me think that I may not have high levels of estrogen.(I may even have it low just like you) I don`t get PMS. My periods are not crampy and they`re not heavy. How about you? If you`re the same than I`ll definately say I must be high in androgens and low on estrogen just like you. By the way I thought about something. Fearycat is similar to us. She has grown a lot on mirifem cream and the pill. She also says mirifem helped with her skin. She has used them for 4 months and grown 3 inches with them. The only downside she says is when she was on mirifem she was getting real bad period cramps. But mirifem hasn`t given her more acne but has actually helped with it. I`m thinking about using both the cream and the pill. But can I use them with vitex is the question.Feary hasn`t been around since last friday, I already wrote her a message about this. Let`s see what she says and I`ll let you know. One thing though, feary, if I remember correctly has always had period cramps, that could mean she was high in estrogen and when she supplied her body with more estrogen she grew. Since we`re low on estrogen we may need a higher dose to grow. But since she had acne she possibly also had high androgens but PM worked on her anyway!Maybe it could work on us too! How long have you been taking vitex and do you take anything else with it? I have been taking it for about 2.5 months and my acne is slowly clearing. Best wishes....
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 8:17 AM
Katrina, I agree with you on carbs, I have thought to do the same.
Melosh, could it be that FG was what gave you acne? SP is supposed to reduce acne, lol. But then again, it's not unusual that NBE seems totally illigical, we still don't have much of a clue about how it works. Btw, google for acne herbs, I think red clover is one. And zinc is supposed to be really good for acne (a normal dose, I think RDA is established, at extremely high doses however zinc is aromatase inhibitor and we don't want that).
What entrigues me about NBE tho is that the more pytoestrogens you take, the less estrogenic effect you have in your body, because they act instead of your own estrogen, which is stronger. Or so it seems, but there must be some unknown mechanism which makes a difference.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 8:21 AM
PS and kind of off-topic - About my plan to make a two day brake every 5 days - I decided that cause I researched drug tolerance / geting used to drugs (I tried finding info on herb tolerance, but there isn't any) and I found that some drugs which are known to cause tolerance are administrated with such brakes and the tolerance is prevented. So I hope the same goes for herbs.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 1:23 PM
i'm having one of these postperiod moments when all the thought-to-be growth has gone and feel very down asking myself if i will ever have breasts or not.
i like the topic but i admit it's very confusing. im only sure about my excess androgens about estrogen have no idea. i dont have pms but have heavy bleeding and cramps on the first day of my period. What could i make out of this fact?
i started my 3rd month of my secound routine (nettle and fennel but no fennel received yet from Vortexhealth) and hope it's only the beginning. Sad but true have been starting to think about surgery lately as much as i hate having smth unnatural put in me.
About Sawpalmetto.does it have only the fattening (no matter if u eat or not) effect or is it smth more? i remember having enourmous food cravings in the end and thats why i quit. But could it be because i started to grow i needed to eat more? no idea.
i also had a piece in one breasts and got worried but now it seems (not sure) that this piece somehow maybe developed into tissue. Its soft now in the same area. but all the action took place in my bigger one leaving the smaller side with basicly only a nipple
and i so much want to have breasts even if they were cute and small.
sorry about the sad story just needed to let it out.
Bonnette
Buffeee
(Login Buffeeee)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 1:58 PM
Hey Bonette, I'm not so sure that your giving yourself enough chance to grow with just nettle and fennel. What if you try adding a small amount of fenugreek (like 1000-2000mg a day) and take your fennel as a tea? That's what I would do if I were to do herbs again. Fennel tea seems to be a big booster, and I noticed that when I gave in a put a little fenugreek back in my routine, I grew some. Do it for 2 months and then cut out the fenugreek for a month or just take a break (this is to avoid the fat bellies.)
Just a suggestion from what I've experienced.
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 3 2007, 2:13 PM
This is a good website, it gives dietary advice etc. for excess androgens in women, maybe check that out
http://www.ovarian-cysts-pcos.com/hirsutism.html
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Melosh and Bonnette...
April 3 2007, 8:45 PM
Melosh, I have only been on Vitex for 1 month so far. My acne has improved a little, but I still have oily skin. I think I am going to need some extra help for my high androgen levels. I have always wondered why I was skinnier than most girls my age, even though I eat the same amount of food, the only place it seems to go is my waist. I do have healthy looking legs but, that is because I work out to get muscles there, and my arms have always been pretty skinny. I believe low estrogen levels is the cause now and to high androgens.
Bonnette, as for your cramps, you sound exactly like me. I have cramps the first day or two of my period, but what is strange about mine is that they are in my back and in my pelvis area. They are never in my stomach like most girls. Maybe excess androgens causes this? Also, my periods are very heavy the first few days of my period and then very light. I am a bit confused because I thought this would be caused by too much estrogen, which I appear to lack. So maybe just an imbalance in hormones is what causes cramps and heavy bleeding. I also thought that excess androgens caused you to have late periods, but mine would always be a few days early. So I am still confused about the whole thing.
If anyone is that confused, then I would suggest just going ahead and taking a saliva hormone test like me, that way there will be no more guessing.
I will look into either mirifem or st. herb or maybe also that new soap some girls are talking about s-blossom. These seem to have the most estrogen without the worry of saw palmetto hindering with progress, which some girls have found.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 4 2007, 5:56 AM
thanks Lisa121 the website is of big help
Katrina, it's intriguig u came up with low estrogen instead. because of the cramps and heavy bleeding on first day i was sure for the higher estrogen. but could be of imbalance, dont know.
thats why i also took only a little fennel (3-4 per day) and it seemed to work painwise. and that's what confuses me, i do get pains occasionally but almost every day, mostly after eating or drinking water.
about excess androgens, why is it so? i mean is it just my body doing what it pleases? i dont have sweets at all (not a sweettoe), only wholegrain and everythig quite healthy so there's not much to improve in there.
now was also reading the vitex topic and thought maybe i should be using that. i did for several months but for sur it was not enough. i just hate trying and trying and nothing works.
But i keep trying
Bonnette
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 5 2007, 5:34 PM
Katrina and Bonette
I have been using vitex 1600mg a day for 2.5 months now. My acne is clearing slowly. It did cause an initial shinkage, no growth to report yet. I`m so happy that my acne is clearing even if it doesn`t grow my breasts I won`t drop it.
Other girls who have been using vitex for longer than 3 months already declared vitex as their acne cure. One more month and if I don`t get any breakouts at all I`ll also declare it as my acne cure.
Bonette what was your vitex dosage? Were you taking it reguarly or were you skipping taking it often?
Katrina hang in ther buddy. I`m not growing boobs yet but it seems like vitex is balancing my testostrone levels by increasing my progestrone levels. With high testostrone levels I know I can`t grow.
As I said before SP or nettle did nothing on me. Girls I know you`re getting impatient, so am I. I can only tell you what`s working on me and it seems like vitex is lowering my testostrone levels. I don`t have any active pimples right now. When I don`t get any breakout at all for a month I`ll be posting a big message advising all the girls to use it for high testostrone levels. If you`re using it stick with it and wait just one more month!!
Best wishes to all.
PS. Moon, it could be fenugreek that gave me acne, you`re right. That`s why I`m staying away from estrogenic herbs. I use vitex only, nothing else for NBE. And I`ll try progestrone cream on the 18th day of my cycle which is April 14th. Hugs and kisses to all....
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 5 2007, 6:29 PM
Although EPO is a great oil, remember for some people it can cause severe blemishes and breakouts. I have never read anyone complaining about breakouts with borage.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 6 2007, 9:00 AM
Melosh
i took vitex pills which had 20 mg of extract in it. but i have no idea how strong the extract was. i was then told in the pharmacy that this is the strongest and it really works for irregular periods (i had that problem before NBE). it could be coincidence but one night i might have taken two and next morning i had severe lymphnods in armpits, anyway it never really got solved what caused it but that's another topic. but it still leaves me wonder sometimes if the vitex was about to start to work cos the occasional pains that i got late at night were like oh-my-god. or it could have been some virus i already had in my blood.
why do i always answer so long, sorry
BOnnette
Wahaika
(Login Wahaika)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 7 2007, 8:39 PM
Borage oil would be good to use because it seems to help with aromatase production which would help use testosterone to create estrogen, therefore lowering testosterone.
Singing nettle keeps testosterone from binding to SHBG so you don't want to use that one.
Saw Palmetto keeps testosterone from converting into DHT which is a stronger testosterone, so be sure to use plenty of SP. DHT would be worse!
Vitex mainly works with LH and ends up raising progesterone. Progesterone is earlier in the sex hormone cascade, so if the idea is to lower testosterone this could work, but could also lower estrogen. I wouldn't generally recommend Vitex while doing BE unless they had PCOS or were in menopause, but that's just me.
** Mint Tea (see below) for some reason raises estrogen but lowers androgens. Read the links below. I think this would be a good thing to use in your case.
Mint Tea:
http://www.yorkshire-forward.com/www/vie...ent_id=263
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...nce120.xml
http://herbalscienceresearch.com/keyword/endocrine (slow to load, but eventually does)
Good Luck!
Wahaika
Anonymous
(Login Sarabell239)
So Cool+
April 8 2007, 3:53 AM
Thanks for that great explanation Wahaika!
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 7:22 AM
WOW Wahaika thanks
that could explain why sawpalmetto seemed to work better for me. But the damn hunger i get from it.
Bonnette
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 12:12 PM
This is what I found on Nettle root, this topic intrigues me since both SP and Nettle seem to help with my androgen related symptoms, but Nettle seemed to be much more effective in my case, at much lower dosages too.
Seems like the nettle does several things at the same time.
http://www.health-n-energy.com/ARTICLES/chrysin.htm
"A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site.
The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement.
Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.
Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head."
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 12:35 PM
Lisa 121
are u using Vortexhealth nettleroot or something stronger in extract form?
i feel so confused now not knowing which one to prfer.
Bonnette
Lisa121
(no login)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 4:17 PM
Hi Bonnette, I am using the vortexhealth one. I know how you feel, all this stuff about the Nettle vs SP has totally confused me too.
I don't like taking the SP and it really didn't help well with me unless I took really high dosages and the nettle seems perfect in comparison. The way I know is because of my high androgen levels I always sweat a lot, I mean even my hands do. When I take the nettle the sweatiness is greatly reduced. It goes up again with taking Fenugreek, but works wonders on its own. The SP never did that, not at the dosages that I felt were safe to take anyway, plus I got cellulite on my bum and thighs.
I am sticking with the Nettle myself, I grew as well with it as I did on the SP so in my book it can't be that much worse than the SP.
I guess you have to see and try for yourself, try out different dosages, ramp up or down, try taking the highest and lowest dosage etc. and see what works for you.
When I stop the whole NBE thing I will definitely take the vitex again on its own this time, maybe that will help balance my hormones more permanently, if it doesn't I know that the nettle helps.
Good luck!
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Mint...
April 8 2007, 6:17 PM
that is interesting about the mint lowering testosterone and is really a new study that has been talked about on the news lately. I think I will also try that out. Maybe it can help lower andgrogens without taking up space in receptor cites in the breasts like saw palmetto does.
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 8:20 PM
Lisa 121
that's very interesting about the sweating. i never noticed that. in fact i started to sweat when on herbs specially on sawpalmetto. i have taken nettle since the end of January and i can tell it doesnt help with acne as sawpalmetto did. but it could also be that it doesnt mean it's not working breastwise. i remember reading that NBE means having breakouts just like in buberty. honestly i dont know. i just dont like the hunger and yes cellulitis when i took sawpalmetto. at fist it was good since i was underweight and nothing seemed to help but then later (after few months) i started to feel i cant control myself.
spearmint is something new to experiment, i checked the websites Wahaika suggested and it was recomended to use in follicular phase. will try next month.
what is interesting that the pains with nettle and sawpalmetto are different. now with nettle they are occasional and after lunch usually. and most weird anytime i have a bit of alcohol. i get tipsy very easily so i really dont drink ( halg a glass of wine) that much but the pains i get are strong then. was about to make a thread about asking others.
Lisa, how much u take the phytoestrogens now?
i just want so much to figure out my breastgrowing puzzle
Bonnette
melosh
(Login melosh)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 8 2007, 8:21 PM
Hi Katrina
I`m sorry I couldn`t get back to you with info about what we talked about last night. My pc chrushed several times and now it takes forever for web pages to open so it`s very hard for me to surf the net. Let me post a message to see if other girls have any knowledge. As far as I know when a women begins to gain massive amounts of muscle her testo levels go up.
I`m not sure about esto converting to testo or other way around but whenever I took estrogenic herbs i had a terrible breakout within a few days. Therefore I wanted to worn you about taking estrogenic herbs so you don`t get more acne(gosh I`m so afraid of breaking out, every new acne I get stays around for 4-5 months therefore getting even one new acne is like hell breaking loose on me)Good luck, hugs and kisses...
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 9 2007, 12:23 PM
Hi Bonnette, the sweating is certainly worse on Fenugreeek. The same with the puberty spots, I always had acne since I started puberty, the pill somehow helped a bit but it never went away completely. As for the effectiveness of either SP or nettle for preventing that I can't tell because I haven't used either for a longer period on it's own without the Fenugreek, and the Fenugreek certainly makes me break out a LOT. As we are trying to mimic puberty and the hormones that are in our system then it makes sense that we would break out while at least being on the phytoestrogenic herbs.
I am on the slim side too and the sp increased my hunger as well, a reason why I don't like taking it either, even though I could do with putting on some weight at the moment. I don't like it because it seems to put the weight to the butt thigh areas, and not anywhere else.
I am trying to drink a cup of spearmint/camomile tea (the only one I could find in my healthstore) a day, I don't always manage, got a lot of stuff on at the moment and this is all so time consuming. I didn't know about using it in the follicular phase, I will maybe look into it and give it a try too, although I am not sure if I will manage to remember. :-) when the time comes. :-)
I don't drink alcohol either, it causes my stomach hassle and I don't like getting drunk, but since you are saying this, at new years I had a glass of wine and I felt tingles in my boobs too. I have no idea why that would be either, I wondered about it too since alcohol is meant to be bad for NBE.
I am taking between 610 mg of Fenugreek two to three times a day, I am experimenting with my routine at the moment, but since being on the pill I generally don't exceed that dose. It is good too because my sweat doesn't smell so much of it at the lower dosages.
Good luck,
Lisa
bonnette
(Login bonnette)
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 9 2007, 6:43 PM
thanks Lisa121
at least the spearmint is something nice to add to our routines.
one more thing. as i understood u are on bcp now? do u still need to take the nettle with it? i have some packages of Diane left from the times of my ex and wondering if they could work just as well as nettle and sawpalmetto. i never was on pill longer than half a year so i dont know if they work against the androgens. i just so much hate to take the chemicals.
Happy growing
Bonnette
Lisa121
(Login Lisa121)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
April 9 2007, 8:23 PM
Hi Bonette, yes, I am on BCP, have been on and off since I was 14 or 15 prescribed by my doctor in order to regulate the androgens. I am on yasmin just now, I understand Diane is similar in its anti androgenic properties. You could try and take it again, but with me the pill never really made that much of a difference.
I get pretty bad mood swings when I am not taking anything, the pill helps regulate those, but besides that it never done that much. It improves my acne some I believe, but since it takes about half a year to take effect it is hard to tell with other factors such as stress, diet and the herbs. The pill never helped with the sweatiness or any of the other symptoms, and I was glad when I found out about SP and Nettle because before I thought I would have to take bcp for the rest of my life just to regulate the terrible moods.
Depending on how much your hormones are out of whack it may do the trick for you, I prefer the herbs any day though, and when I got tested my androgen levels were not much above the maximum.
I am on the pill for contraceptive reasons, otherwise I wouldn't bother with it and just take the Nettle instead. I do seem to have to take less of all the herbs though, since being on the pill much lower Fenugreek levels seem to work and I think the same goes for the Nettle.
You really have to decide for yourself.
Black Sheep
(Login Lorelii)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
June 29 2007, 6:29 AM
Just thought I would bump this thread to see how you are going? :-)
Loreli x
Black Sheep
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
June 29 2007, 2:48 PM
Hey Lorelii, thanks for asking. It's been a while since I've updated, but I am definitely working on it. I have changed my diet just recently, cutting out all sugar, caffine, and refined carbohydrates. I am trying to eat only meats and vegetables alone with a small amount of fruits to get my protein and carbohydrates. I truly believe this will help to lower my androgen levels (as refined carbohydrates and excess sugar raises insulin levels and stimulates the ovaries to overproduce male hormones) and hopefully balance my estrogen. I am also trying to lower my stress levels by worrying less because excess stress for so many years has exhausted my adrenal glands and I feel very tired a lot. Since I have cut out sugar I already notice a difference. I feel energized most of the day and I woke up this morning at 6:45 a.m. without an alarm feeling great! I usually want to sleep until 9:00 a.m. and still feel tired.
I just put in an order a couple of days ago for St. Herb breast enhancement pills and I will try that alone with massage. It is supposed to be the closest to mimicking estrogen compared to other herbs, and I've tried just about everything. So I will see how this goes and if I get results off of this product, trust me, I will let everyone know!
Are you on a program and if so how is it going?
Katrina
(Login mountainkat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Huh...??
June 29 2007, 2:50 PM
I don't know why the above post logged me in as Black Sheep, but I am Katrina! I've never had that to happen before!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
June 29 2007, 6:07 PM
Katrina, the sheep are random login names instead of annonymous for when you don't type anything in the name box.
I have the same problem as you, I think, tho I haven't had a test done, but I have all the signs of high androgens. I also think that might be the reason I haven't had sucess with NBE for so long. I'm also cutting down on shuggar and carbs, not entirely, but reducing greately. From bread I only eat wholewheat and just little of it. I'm taking a BCP for this problem also - estrogens themselves lower androgens and my BCP also contains androgen blockers. I also take a high dose of nettle. I hope this all helps getting my androgen levels down. It's interesting what you write that you feel more entergised since cutting out shuggar. I have always been very tired so I will try to do the same. Anyway, good luck on your future NBE journeys!
Loreli
(Login Lorelii)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
July 19 2007, 11:17 AM
Hi Kat!
Yes i am on a NBE program, the reason i asked about yours is because i think i have excess androgens too. I have excess body hair, acne, oily hair...
I have been on Wonderup for 2 months with no growth at all. I know it's still early days but i have not had one ache, pain or tingle. I also tried grow yours for a few weeks but i started lactating and that scared me so I stopped.
I have also started taking Saw Palmetto to reduce my androgens, but was thinking of switching to birth control to do that.
If Wonder
Have you ever thought of trying Brava? x
Loreli
(Login Lorelii)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
July 19 2007, 11:19 AM
oops i didnt finish what i was typing! i was going to say if wonderup doesnt work for me i might try bountiful breast, but it doesnt give me much hope cos it didnt work for you and we have similar stats!
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
July 19 2007, 2:16 PM
Medical treatment for excess androgens is spironolactone / flutamide / ketoconazole etc, they will usually try you on BCP 1st then add one of the others usually spironolactone, all of the drugs have potential side effects but having the androgen excess can lead to becoming diabetic so if my hormone test shows up results similar to yours I'll be taking anything they can give me.
Best of luck and health and boobs x
ps do you hve PCO? Yo ay be interested in this link for health tips:
http://www.ovarian-cysts-pcos.com/hirsutism.html
Davi Lee
(Login Davi-lee)
Chiming in with some info. ....
July 19 2007, 9:49 PM
Wow,I had no idea that the excess androgen problem was so widespread for women.
Im not sure if anyone mentioned Licorice root extract.
It has anti-androgenic properties and prevents Test. from becoming DHT.
It is supposed to be good for reducing Test. but you have to watch when taking larger amounts of it for long periods as it can cause headaches and rise in blood pressure,sodium and water retention,and potassium deficiency.
Uh..amounts are sketchy,3-4 cups of licorice tea is the max recommended and 2-4 oz. of real licorice based candy is suggested as being a lot of the candy.
Mostly it is said to take it for 6-7 days then rest from it for a couple days.
Of course,monitor yourself and adjust accordingly.
>>In some circles,Androcur(cyproterone acetate)is being mentioned as a good anti-androgen med.
I read a little and you dont have to use very much of it.
Go to Drug.com and see the drug index for its side effects.
>>I have been seeing much about the combo. of Lavender and Tea tree oil as a androgen reducer.I have read that boys and some men have had breast development due to using products that contained both.I know that lavender has estrogenic properties,but it may be the Tea Tree that makes it more effective.Some herbs are potentizers for other herbs.
I bought a bottle of the tea tree extract and it really has a potent smell.That would be the only drawback to it,because it is a good antiseptic.BUT it can cause skin irritation,dilute with some veg.oil.
>>Hops:I mentioned this in another thread,it has the strongest isoflavone of any phytoestrogenic,1/20th the strength of bioestrogen.Im going to start incorporating it into my plan and see what it does.I guess I will try and find hop flowers at a brew supply store and make a tea from it.
Davi Lee
(Login Davi-lee)
OOH some more herbs to try...
July 19 2007, 11:12 PM
I skipped down the thread list and missed that mention about Mints.
Wow,I havent come across that exact info. before seeing what you wrote.
You said its a relatively new discovery?
Thats really exciting because I have a big herb patch full of 2-3 kinds of mints.
Im goin' on the Vitex also.I want to see what it does.
I respond fairly quickly to supplements,so Im excited to see what new ones will do.
I pick fresh red clover blossoms and dry them.
Then I take three or four crushed RC blossoms and add 1 tesp ground fennel seed,and a few leaves of dry Lemon balm.(I read somewhere that Lemon balm <Melissa>,has some estrogenic properties,I may be mistaken)
**If someone would let me know about that I would be grateful.
I also hadnt looked into Borage as a good supplement.THAT is really cool,that it promotes aromatase production,Ive been trying to find some herb that would do that;I knew there was something that could do that.
Thanks everyone for your knowledge pool.
Many lovely heads thinking together are better than one alone!!
Big hugs,Davilee
bridget
(no login)
answer to above
February 23 2009, 1:32 PM
please answer question above
Corinsa
(Login Corinsa)
SENIOR MEMBER
Acne
February 24 2009, 1:18 PM
As bad as this is, I have been getting bad acne on my back recently. I have no idea what herb it could be from, but it's really getting bad! There are a few cystic ones, and a bunch of little ones. Any suggestions on what it could be from? I started a new birth control, Yaz which is supposed to help with acne, and am taking fenugreek, flaxseed oil, nettle root, collagen, fennel, Maca, and EPO. The acne on my face has really cleared up, but the acne on my back is getting worse, yuck!!! Any help??
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: The LONG awaited answer! - MUST READ!
February 24 2009, 2:11 PM
EPO !! EPO can cause breakouts, as well as hormonal fluctuations, which will be happening because of herbs. Another thing that can happen because of hormonal fluckulations is tiny capillary arteries break, which gives a look of tiny , tiny, broken blood vessels on the cheeks of your face. The last one also is age related. For the acne breakouts, maybe drop the EPO and use borage oil instead or Omega3 oil, which is a key ingredient for youthful, healthy complexion.
Zinc is a great supplement for acne breakouts, helps keep clear complexsion. My guess is that your are reacting to the EPO, only one of the side effects it causes, oily skin, headaches are some others.
Corinsa
(Login Corinsa)
SENIOR MEMBER
EPO???
February 25 2009, 2:23 AM
Snowflake, thanks for the suggestion! I actually just doubled my EPO last week because of my acne. I thought I had read on here somewhere that it helped decrease acne, and borage oil made it worse. I am so confused! Time to research...