[surferjoe2007]

Hi Joe. I hope you don’t mind me posting this question here. I think it’s somewhat relevant to this thread.

I know that oral estrogen supplementation lowers Igf-1 production. Do you know if any phytoestrogens have ever been shown or suspected to do the same? Especially pueraria mirifica? How much do you think circulating igf-1 really matters for breast growth (as opposed to local production)? I’m asking because I saw a reddit post about igf-1 by an endo that specializes in trans hrt. He said that he experimented with giving igf-1 to some of his patients, but he felt that it didn’t improve breast growth at all. I know you had another thread about women that injected igf-1 into their breasts. The only link you posted is broken, or maybe that post was removed from their forum. Do you have any links to reports of women doing this? If you don’t feel comfortable posting it here, please pm me. I’m asking this because, if the results of such an extreme method are less than stellar, that would be a very strong indication that focusing on igf-1 production is misguided. I’ve suspected for a long time that low igf-1 might be one of the main reasons my other nbe attempts failed, but now I’m not so sure. It would be nice to know whether or not I’m barking up the wrong tree.

One more question, lol. I know I already asked about fenugreek/shatavari saponins, but I read some things that I’d like to ask you about. I used to see people claiming that fenugreek raises the ceiling of the estrogen negative feedback loop, and that’s supposedly it’s main mechanism of action. I think I remember Wahaika being one of the main proponents of this theory, but it was ages ago, so I’m not sure. Would you say you agree with that idea? If so, why?

Sorry for bothering you again. Hopefully you at least find this interesting to think about.

EDIT: I just saw a study claiming that supplementing with “weak” phytoestrogens, like the ones in soy and flax, actually increases igf-1. Of course that doesn’t mean that stronger phytoestrogens are the same. I’m still pretty confused.

Hi sorry I didn’t notice this sooner.  I don’t know if estrogen lowers overall igf-1 or not.  I do know it triggers the release of local igf-1 at the breasts.  I just happened to be reading recently that both local igf-1 and circulating igf-1 can be helpful for breast growth, and circulating igf-1 can in fact make up for a lack of local igf-1 release.  For anyone who has trouble growing I suggest nutrition such as the foods in my signature.  Get your body working right and it can sort itself out.  That said, trying to increase igf-1 too wouldn’t hurt to try.  Yeah there is very little info on how much igf-1 helps or doesn’t help breast growth in humans, or how much is necessary.  And since there are many factors involved it may not woro at all at times just like estrogen alone may not always work.  I found one or maybe a couple animal studies and just that one single human example.  It’s definitely involved, but I don’t know if it’s an amplifier, bottleneck, requires a little or required a lot.  In the animal study an extremely large and inadvisable amount of IGF-1 and GH caused extreme mammary growth.  It was around the equivalent of going from B cup to J cup.  Either IGF-1 or GH alone had a partial effect too, with GH causing a little more than half of the growth.  DHEA may be a simple and cheap zero or near zero risk way to boost igf-1 a small amount, and probably other hormones too.  So it doesn’t hurt to try DHEA at least.  Mk-677 increases both igf-1 and GH btw, but it has legal issues and other minor issues.  Since fenugreek increases appetite and therefore ghrelin it probably increases both igf-1 and GH too, and with less issues.

I’m not sure exactly how fenugreek works but I know it increases the typical hormones and/or the effects of those hormones of the person using them and it works on a variety of hormones.  So estrogen and so on in women (but not men), testosterone and so on in men (but not women), and prolactin in nursing women (but not others).  And insulin, igf-1, gh, ghrelin, mood boosting compounds, etc. in everyone.  It might be by unregulating their production or increasing sensitivity to them or both, but I’m not sure.  At minimum it unregulates production of some.