[TibetanPrincess]

I got my period today, so I started my next cycle of PM. I want to finish one full cycle at the full dose of PM and Greenbush, and if I still feel like nothing is happening, I'll finally do a saliva test. I still don't understand what sort of hormonal disorder would cause absolutely no symptoms, even when poked with a large stick in the form of loads of phytohormones.

If I get my hormones tested, I'll need to take a break from NBE for a full cycle in order to allow my hormone levels to stabilize before I test them. Then I'll need to take another break while I test them at least twice over the course of a cycle.

Tibetan, how often do you need to test and at what times over the course of a cycle? I'm surprised that Dr.Lee's site doesn't give more info on how to track hormonal changes over the course of a cycle.

They had me take it on day 20 (luteal) of my cycle. I guess they want the highest level of hormones. I am due for tests again in 2-3 months by my MD. But I think he is going to have me do blot testing with blood sample this time.

Its a bother to have to hassle with the waiting and the testing but let me say once again, at least you can rest with what NBE approach you choose based off of your tests. Its so individual it makes nothing but pure sense as to why all/any NBE methods don't work for some of us. You've got so many hormones at work here. Its far more than estrogen/progesterone/testosterone.

[AbiDrew85]

Its a bother to have to hassle with the waiting and the testing but let me say once again, at least you can rest with what NBE approach you choose based off of your tests. Its so individual it makes nothing but pure sense as to why all/any NBE methods don't work for some of us. You've got so many hormones at work here. Its far more than estrogen/progesterone/testosterone.

True... If I could, I'd be getting tested and tweaking things accordingly.

However, Estrogen, Progesterone, and Testosterone DO have the most powerful influences. Keep E and P properly balanced and high and T low and MOST everything else falls into place... Except you do still need to cycle as a natal female. Though, TBH, I think we could do an herbal birth control by cycling doses to keep E and P constantly at the high end of the curve, flattening it out. Might even prove to be the safest BC ever if someone wants to try it out.

Most BC seems to concentrate on disrupting the signaling by just simply keeping both perpetually at mega highs.

[mochaccino]

I'm really tempted to add L-arginine to my program, even though I find the supposed mechanism of action a bit implausible. I'm also still trying to figure out how successful PM/BC programs are on average. I've been working on a list of people who took PM along with BC, and I've been trying to draw some sort of useful conclusions from it, but so far it's as confusing as ever. Maybe it'll make more sense once I've finished it. I contacted MydreamisGcup and IdreamofD to ask them if they've retained their growth. I asked them some questions about their BC use. If I'm really lucky, maybe one of them will say that they've taken a break from BC. I would love to find out if their growth from PM is retained without the BC. In the past I haven't had much luck contacting people who don't hang around the boards anymore, but I really hope they answer.

I'm concerned because some people who combine PM and BC get a large increase in size, and they retain most of the increase while they remain on BC, even if they stop taking PM, but they lose all of it when they stop taking BC. So far I'm aware of 2 people who definitely experienced this. One of the them is TeeTee. I don't know much about her, but she had this to say about her experience:

"I have not been here in a long time but wanted to let you know that I took pm on and off for 4 years or so, and the breast increase only stayed/remained while I was on the depo injection. Pm became my "party trick" I guess. Within a week of taking it again, my boobs would start to swell. Within two months my boobs would be two cups bigger but also very tender like i had just given birth. I've since read other women having the same effects as me. Maybe 5 % of the 2 cup sizes remains today. The rest is from noogleberry."

She also had this to say:

"I realised what was happening quite quickly but was so desperate to have decent sized boobs that i continued on for 4 years, now surely 4 years of pill popping would have given me a cupsize lol, but it didnt. It was all just water retention/swelling."

[TibetanPrincess]

Hi Mocha, this is exactly why I never tried BC route along with herbs. Think about it. In order to maintain breast size increases like this, you have to have a certain level of hormones circulating in the body at all times.

Many women who have experienced this sudden "growth" is because of such ridiculous high levels of hormones at that time (that are probably slightly higher than when one is pregnant - and that is unnatural for the average woman) and at the same time, they have shut their own healthy production of hormones off (feedback loop in the glandular system).
And when they don't titrate off or taper down, their glandular systems have not woken up by that time which is most likely causing the deflate, loss of "growth" and prob wasn't real in the first place.

I think the key is to elevate the hormones just enough to have our receptors be sensitive to cause growth spurts while at the same time, maintaining these hormone levels from here on out through diet and minor supplementation.

Also, if you have to take a maintenance dose for the rest of your life, than what you have accumulated in NBE is/was probably not real growth to begin with.

This is why I say it is more than estro/progest/testosterone. There are so many factors here to consider when it comes to NBE success. You can put all the hormones in the world in a female body but its what the body chooses to do with it all.

I almost feel like it is the same thing with noogling. I think its unnecessary to do it every single day. I think its good for the boobs to get a break and not get used to it. I think Cheryl1989 had stopped noogling and finally, the swelling went down to reveal her real size after weeks, granted she didn't lose a lot but it was a noticeable deflate. But then again it could have been around when she was drying up from lactation.

I am thinking noogling only helps those whose bodies are actually getting the message to grow. If you are not in the state of growing, noogling will only give you temp swelling and minor tissue expansion. It will prob take years to see the accumulation of it all. Those who see changes within months were obviously in the state of growing or have not finished growing and need a little pick me up (circulation to receive the message in the receptors to finish growing)

[mochaccino]

I'm not saying that everyone on BC necessarily doesn't grow, but when PM is combined with BC it does seem to create the perfect storm for false growth in the form of heavy swelling in some people. That's not to say that no one ever grows on this combo. It'll be interesting to hear what MissG and MissD have to say, if they ever get a chance to respond. If either of them says that they stopped or changed their BC, and then lost their growth, then I'll be even more worried. For the record, both Mellephant and Jiberish say that they retained their growth during breaks. Actually it was Jiberish's wife who retained the growth, but you know what I mean

[mochaccino]

Im considering focusing much more on topicals for a while. Not that Ill be dialing down my internals. I want to try using PM cream along with FG extract and borage oil 3 times daily, along with a tiny amount of DMSO for absorption. Im extremely tired of that FG smell at this point so Im gonna run a little smelliness test, lol. Typically youre supposed to rub an entire dropperful of FG into your breasts, but that's extremely smelly, so Ill start with 6 drops per breast and increase the amont by a drop or two per day until someone complains that I smell like maple and/or curry. I dont usually wear perfume, but I think Ill start wearing it just so I can get my fg dose as high as possible before anyone notices. Some of you must be giggling, but if you've ever used topical FG you know that the smell is a huge issue and it's difficult to hide. Internal FG just makes my sweat smell slightly sweet, which I don't mind all that much.

Im almost out of my St.Herb PM cream so this experiment might have to stop begore it even gets rolling. At least until I receive my next PM cream. St.Herb cream takes several weeks to arrive and it's a liitle expensive, so I might buy some Ro-bust on Ebay. Does anyone know how quickly it arrives? Lately Ro-bust has built up a great reputation for being stronger than St.herb cream, so Im super excited to try it. Too bad it also has a reputation for being smelly and waxy

[mochaccino]

I'm finally experiencing a systemic effect from the PM. It's too bad that it has nothing to do with my boobs. I know PM has a reputation for sometimes causing women to produce a lot of "fluid" *cough*. Maybe this is a bit TMI again, but I woke for the last 2 days feeling as if I had had an accident, and it literally looked like I had. This is coinciding with the time of the month that I would be producing the most fluid anyway, but it's never been anywhere near this much. If this keeps up I will have to wear a pad during the days leading up to ovulation from now on. It's pretty annoying, but I'm really glad I'm finally seeing some sort of noticeable effect from this stuff. This doesn't count as a sign of estrogen excess or dominance, as far as I know, so I might be able to continue ramping up next month even though I'll be taking well above the supposed maximum dose for Ainterol. I have to admit that I already ramped up to 1500 about half way through this follicular phase. Maybe I shouldn't have. I guess I'll find out the hard way, but I'm not too worried, because I feel fine. If I were becoming estrogen dominant I assume I would know about it, especially because I had both excess estrogen and estrogen dominance during puberty and the symptoms were hellish. The first symptom I'll get is likely to be a searing migraine, since that's what always kicked it off during puberty. Occasionally, they were bad enough to keep me up for 2 days at a time. I'll obviously keep a watchful eye out for other symptoms too. As it is right now, I feel absolutely nothing other than a little moist, lmao

[Doll]

Oh, wow, what a side effect! I'm wondering if I might want to look into PM in the future. I still don't know much about it, so that really is something to consider!!! Hopefully the next symptom to show up will be in your breasts!

[mochaccino]

I just bought my custom corset!! *happy dancing* I hope the corsetier is as great as I've been led to believe and I don't end up having to eat my words. I've decided I won't be using topical yohimbine, partly because I'm still so chubby that it would probably just be a waste, but also because, due to all the fillers in my yohimbine caps, it'll be impossible to fit the necessary dose of yohimbine into the quarter tsp dose of cream that I was planning to apply. When I finally flatten out my pooch, I might reward myself with some Yohimburn cream, but I still don't know if it's worth it.

[mochaccino]

Someone just walked around the round sniffing, and then asked what smelled like curry. Godamnit I hate you fenugreek! I never even got back 6 drops once daily. I think I'm gonna stop using topically once and for all. My Siriporn cream is already in the mail.