[blomst]

Could PM help me to lose muscle? When I started puberty at age 13-14 I built a lot of muscle and even though I haven't been active for the last three years I have kept all of it and then some. I don't like the muscle-bound appearance of my shoulders, arms, upper legs, and ankles, and the abdominal muscles also make my waist bigger than it needs to be.

Now, I know that I've had problems with high androgens. The muscle, hirsutism, acne, hair loss, and lack of breast growth is evidence of this. Is lowering DHT enough to have a de-masculinizing effect? When I had my hormones tested (via blood) my testosterone was borderline-high. Considering the pool they determine appropriate T levels from, this probably just means 'high'. But it could have just been DHT having that affect on my muscles and feminine parts.

I have heard that estrogen reduces testosterone production because it says to the body "heyo, we've got enough T/T byproducts". To your knowledge, is this true, and would PM have this effect?

Conversely, it could also make sense that adding estrogen to your system via PM or some other estrogen-like thing could tell your body to stop making estrogen out of testosterone, and instead make DHT or just leave it as testosterone.

Wug, it's confusing :S Any insight, even just anecdotal, would be much appreciated.

[EricaB]

Feminization fiction always describes a male becoming feminine and looking like a slender fashion model. Unfortunately, I don't think it works that way in the real world. I doubt that certain parts of the body change much, certainly not the hands and feet. I'm not sure about biceps, etc. If only there were a way. Sorry, I'm not much help.

[blomst]

Ah, I probably should have mentioned that I am female Thanks for the reply.

My hands are a bit large and they could probably belong to a dainty boy but I think my hands and feet are mostly feminine. I know my ribs won't shrink down, but it's definitely possible for the muscles that make the abdomen, shoulders and legs bulky to get smaller. But the testosterone, or my sensitivity to it, has been maintaining it. People's hormones change and for better or worse, intentional or not, they gain or lose muscle. I'm just wondering what role estrogen has in this, and how supplemental estrogen might differ.

[EricaB]

My bad. I usually click on the avatar to see the profile of the person to whom I am replying so that I can make the response more appropriate. No idea why I skipped that in this case.

My impression, based on what I've read here and other places on that reservoir of truth and honesty called the internet, is that talking an anti-androgen would reduce DHT but not regular testosterone. I know DHT has been linked with male pattern baldness, but don't know what other purpose it serves. Many in here trying to reduce testosterone take SP (Saw Palmetto), but there are other herbs as well.

Wish I could be of more help. Good luck.

[jiberish]

You want to get your body in catabolic state and lower your protein. Your body will consume your muscle for energy and won't have the protein to repair itself. This is how a lot of female bodybuilders switched to figure competitors.

Lots of LISS cardio will help achieve this goal.

[Doll]

Just like Jiberish says, definitely lower your protein intake. I used to have a lot of muscle (at least for someone of my size), and once I got into high school and stopped exercising (they offered Wellness Walking, and I usually didn't even participate in that), my muscles slowly started to atrophy. Even then, it took me maybe five or six years to completely lose my muscle, and once I started working out again (I had gained a gut and had trouble lifting smaller weights), my muscle wasn't too terribly hard to gain back with protein.

Personally, I want to have pretty big muscles for such a small figure (not bodybuilder big, ew, but just above average), I prefer to be lean and toned. And that is why I want bigger breasts and a larger behind; so that it'll make my muscles look smaller in comparison but I won't have to worry about, "Oh, I didn't work out this week at all, now I'll have a gut!"

It's very tough to find a good middle ground, I must say. Just give it time. Unfortunately for you (and fortunately for me), muscle is actually very hard to lose, so it does take time.

[blomst]

Thanks for the tips. I've just started going to the gym, I think because I'm getting a handle on my depression, but so far the recumbent bike is the only thing I feel confident doing. I'll move to the treadmill soon though because I really feel my already giant quadriceps working when I'm on the bike.

Lowering protein seems like a good idea on one hand, because it *does* affect the body's ability and tendency to maintain muscle, but isn't that at the cost of systemic metabolic activity and development of female sex characteristics? I have a bit of hope that being 18 and a late bloomer, I might have some hip growth left in me, especially since I hear about girls widening spontaneously at 20-22. I don't think staying in a catabolic state would be conducive to the growth I want.

I think that for now I will work on keeping my temp up and getting my cycle nice and regular. Meanwhile I'm going to do what I can in the herb department to push the scale away from testosterone and towards estrogen. And NOT do resistance exercise.

It bugs me that I can't gauge how much of my bulkiness is due to muscle and how much is due to fat. I think I look pretty fat but if I flex any given body part I'm rock hard :/ ewh. But a lot of fat is intramuscular, right? So I guess it could still be a lot of fat.

[EricaB]

Have you considered getting a body percentage fat test done? Not the ones where they squeeze spots on your body and say 1 inch means 27% body fat, but the more accurate one where they submerge you in a tank of water and weigh you while you're under water. Not quite sure where you can get this done. Some gyms might offer it or might know where. Other possibilities might be colleges, physical rehab centers, weight loss clinics, etc.

Aside from the rocks in my head, I think I'm just one gigantic ball of blubber.

Good luck

[Squirrel with boobs]

the endocrine system is a wonderfully delicate system. We all have both sets of hormones in our systems, wether genetically female or genetically male ( aside from any whom may be transgendered and/or transexual). Some females (such as yourself) can experience a naturally higher testosterone level than most of the female population. This is also connected to the sex-drive. Androgens/testosterone can and will be lowered with a anti-androgen ( ciprocur, wild yam, spirolactone). it prevents Testosterone receptors from receiving naturally produced testosterone and opens estrogen receptors to ...well, receive estrogen and/or estrogenic/xeno-estrogens (xeno meaning foreign..aka phyto(Plant) or chemical estrogens(BPA which has been linked to plastics).).

Estrogens are the "secondary" charachteristics that the body will produce with the abscence of testosterone DHT. Muscles will atrophy (shrink) with the lack of testosterone (provided you do not strength train or lift heavy amounts of muscle) However, the downside is weight gain in fat is likely. so toning excersize may be necessary (cardio).

That being said... you need to be careful when taking any sort of endocrinal interruptors.. more is not always better.. when in doubt talk to your physician before and/or during treatments..

Oh and btw, it will not change bone structure.. you may lose some % of bone density, however the overall Bone size will not deminish.

So for PM and/or any other xeno estrogen and/or phyto estrogens to work an anti-androgen should be used to block Testosterone (essentially it will work as a "shut off switch " the body will temporarily (as long as the anti-androgens are taken) stop the body from producing DHT's ....
stopping it anti-androgens wil revert to DHT production.

Hope this helps

[jiberish]

DHT in men is what makes man a man. Body hair, baldness, high testosterone yada yada. So I would assume too much is bad for women.