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BO and PCOS: Risks and limitations?

#1

Good morning, ladies,
I'm usually in BNm, but for this question, I think you'll have more insight.
21 year old daughter has PCOS and is having a ton of issues. At this time, she's on birth control (Ethinyl Estradiol and something else, I forget; US script). No antiandrogens.
She is very upset about the lack of development....   And with the EE in the pills, she LIKES the "girly" feelings, so it seems she's headed the right direction. Also, he doesn't like being "furry", and - well, the 7 Dwarves ask her for grooming tips...  (Sort of.)

I'm trying to help her plan a program, and I'm thinking BO might be the best start. Any way we can cause aromatization of the T would be a double benefit: Less body hair, more hips (maybe), more breast. Per searching here, we shouldn't have to worry about the birth control interacting with BO.


She's a bit hard to direct, so I can't just tell her to go here and do research on her own. Also doesn't like Saw Palmetto.

Short of treating her like an MTF transsexual, Spirotone and Prgynova, I think it might make the most sense to try and get the balance of T:E towards the "girl" side.

Does anyone know of any problems or risks, given that she is known to be estrogen deficient? (We're working on diet per thread, "PCOS Girls Must read - Lotus please read too ;-)" @ http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=27551)

She loves carbs, eats erratically, and is battling anxiety and depression issues as well. She does have a love for sushi, though, and works at a sushi bar, so there's a good option there. She hates protein shakes. Doesn't like remembering pills. And is on an antidepressant, which I have to look up at home.

Works part time three days a week and goes to school three days a week.

I'm thinking Swanson's BO for starters, use a tincture, get her to drink it in tea. Mimic a woman's schedule or period cycle, since she basically doesn't have one even with the EE in the BC. And see how it goes, starting at the lowest dose, and working up to "normal" doses here (Which IIRC can be as high as 2,000 mg 2X/day, with a start of 250 mg 2X a day.)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-Dianna
#2

Hi, Dianna!

I would strongly recommend having a hormone panel (bloodwork) done for her. Unwanted hair growth and underdevelopement can be caused by estrogen dominance rather than a high testosterone problem. I think having hormone levels done will be the best way to figure out how to move forward. Estrogen dominance is actually a huge problem for women today because there are so many hormone disruptors in the environment that tend to cause estrogen dominance more than any other hormone imbalance.

Hope this helps!
#3

(31-03-2017, 18:14)Pink.Chiffon Wrote:  Hi, Dianna!

I would strongly recommend having a hormone panel (bloodwork) done for her. Unwanted hair growth and underdevelopement can be caused by estrogen dominance rather than a high testosterone problem. I think having hormone levels done will be the best way to figure out how to move forward. Estrogen dominance is actually a huge problem for women today because there are so many hormone disruptors in the environment that tend to cause estrogen dominance more than any other hormone imbalance.

Hope this helps!

Thank you, Pink Chiffon.
We had a blood panel done to diagnose the PCOS. Need to get an updated one, but we're doing one thing at a time...  This week was the woman's knee replacement. NExt week I take a "vacation" to help her convalesce.

We know she needs estrogen, but I don't have the numbers at work. And they didn't do a fractional E or T workup, either. Nor SHBG, so far as I know.
But if the EE (which I understand is hard on the liver, per MTF guidelines, and then oral administration? Something doesn't gel here.) is working, then it's likely this is correct, since this is script from the doc, not an overseas pharmacy where we're guessing and hoping and adjusting, though those steps would come during the process.

She's got a nice figure overall, she wants to look like a girl, though, unmistakably. She's usually a t-shirt and jeans girl, with some hirsutism and cystic acne problems (sounds worse than it is, mostly, but she'll dig out the cysts...) 
But if she dresses in good (fitted) clothes, with a good bra, she's definitely a girl. (Who now is facing the problems of cortisol and bad food choices - mac'n'cheese, candy.)
I think we need to supplement a LOT more, and use more E for the early phase (Luteal, I think?) and then add progesterone cream at the follicular (?) stage. See how it goes for a cycle.
BO might make the use of PM or pharma E unnecessary (great option given exogenous E's ties to breast cancer), and if it can turn the T levels down, even better.

What has me concerned the most is, she said sometimes she feels like a guy, so I'm nervous about her maybe being transgendered, but she doesn't show a lot of drive or aggression normally - just, she'll spike on the aggressiveness out of nowhere (like an unruly teenage boy might). That signals DHT to me, which means too much T, and it's going the wrong way. Her mother has male pattern baldness, for comparison, and is 260 pounds...  Oily hair if she doesn't wash it every day.
So BO seems best option to start.
Then using some routine scanning of hormones, make sure we're going the right direction, and then refine based on how she feels (E.G., progesterone might go away early on, because her mom reacted badly to it - angry, aggressive, moody. That's at 51, basically menopausal.)

I'll look for the information when I get home, and try to post them here.
Doctors in MA aren't necessarily great...  Ask for X, they say you don't need it. Insurance denies that you need it. And the rents and food costs, it's not like you can go private too easily.
But I'm planning to hit Fenway health anyway (TG friendly) - and that might enable better medical monitoring for both of us.

-Dianna
#4

(31-03-2017, 18:56)Dianna1395 Wrote:  
(31-03-2017, 18:14)Pink.Chiffon Wrote:  Hi, Dianna!

I would strongly recommend having a hormone panel (bloodwork) done for her. Unwanted hair growth and underdevelopement can be caused by estrogen dominance rather than a high testosterone problem. I think having hormone levels done will be the best way to figure out how to move forward. Estrogen dominance is actually a huge problem for women today because there are so many hormone disruptors in the environment that tend to cause estrogen dominance more than any other hormone imbalance.

Hope this helps!

Thank you, Pink Chiffon.
We had a blood panel done to diagnose the PCOS. Need to get an updated one, but we're doing one thing at a time...  This week was the woman's knee replacement. NExt week I take a "vacation" to help her convalesce.

We know she needs estrogen, but I don't have the numbers at work. And they didn't do a fractional E or T workup, either. Nor SHBG, so far as I know.
But if the EE (which I understand is hard on the liver, per MTF guidelines, and then oral administration? Something doesn't gel here.) is working, then it's likely this is correct, since this is script from the doc, not an overseas pharmacy where we're guessing and hoping and adjusting, though those steps would come during the process.

She's got a nice figure overall, she wants to look like a girl, though, unmistakably. She's usually a t-shirt and jeans girl, with some hirsutism and cystic acne problems (sounds worse than it is, mostly, but she'll dig out the cysts...) 
But if she dresses in good (fitted) clothes, with a good bra, she's definitely a girl. (Who now is facing the problems of cortisol and bad food choices - mac'n'cheese, candy.)
I think we need to supplement a LOT more, and use more E for the early phase (Luteal, I think?) and then add progesterone cream at the follicular (?) stage. See how it goes for a cycle.
BO might make the use of PM or pharma E unnecessary (great option given exogenous E's ties to breast cancer), and if it can turn the T levels down, even better.

What has me concerned the most is, she said sometimes she feels like a guy, so I'm nervous about her maybe being transgendered, but she doesn't show a lot of drive or aggression normally - just, she'll spike on the aggressiveness out of nowhere (like an unruly teenage boy might). That signals DHT to me, which means too much T, and it's going the wrong way. Her mother has male pattern baldness, for comparison, and is 260 pounds...  Oily hair if she doesn't wash it every day.
So BO seems best option to start.
Then using some routine scanning of hormones, make sure we're going the right direction, and then refine based on how she feels (E.G., progesterone might go away early on, because her mom reacted badly to it - angry, aggressive, moody. That's at 51, basically menopausal.)

I'll look for the information when I get home, and try to post them here.
Doctors in MA aren't necessarily great...  Ask for X, they say you don't need it. Insurance denies that you need it. And the rents and food costs, it's not like you can go private too easily.
But I'm planning to hit Fenway health anyway (TG friendly) - and that might enable better medical monitoring for both of us.

-Dianna

Hi, Dianna!

To be honest, she sounds a lot like me when I was a teenager. I had a lot of the same problems: unwanted hair growth, PCOS, very oily skin, severe cystic acne, I was also very boyish. I had high testosterone in my teenage years, was put on birth control for this which I later came off of when I learned birth control can actually make things worse and cause infertility. This is what made me switch to bioidentical hormone therapy (BHT) when I could afford it. Insurance doesnt help pay for doctors visits but I get progesterone prescribed through my OBGYN and this is covered by insurance.

Interestingly, my high testosterone was gone by the time I started BHT at 28. I have a theory as to why that is. But anyway, once I got my hormones sorted (I had high estrogen and low progesterone), I started BO and my PCOS symptoms have since gone away. It took about 9 months of working with my BHT doctor to get my hormones right but it changed everything for me. Like you, I had to go to a BHT specialist to get any help in this department. Regular doctors were useless.
#5

Hello. Bovine ovary will most likely help with increasing estrogen, but it can also increase testosterone because it pretty much works like a second puberty. Many people in this forum have posted about experiencing acne, increased amount of body hair, etc. 
Spearmint and red reishi are potent anti-androgens, so you can try those out. You mentioned putting BO tincture in tea, so you can use spearmint tea. I'm also fairly sure you can get red reishi in drink form on iHerb.  Big Grin
Also, as for her acne, etc. she can also try taking evening primrose oil supplements. Although you did mention she didn't like taking pills, but I think you can also get evening primrose oil in liquid form and take it that way. Many people have also reported increased breast size from evening primrose oil and it can also be applied/massaged on the breasts and butt to increase the size of them because it contains GLA which can help plump the skin. 
Having a clean diet is important for NBE. And also sleeping properly because it will help your body generate more HGH (human growth hormone) which will help grow everything. 
Hopefully this helps. Good luck!
#6

I kept thinking about this thread so I wanted to throw this out there.

For the oily skin, one of the absolute best things you can do is to get sulfate-free cleansing products and shampoo. When I switched to sulfate-free products, I saw a dramatic decrease in oiliness on my face, body, and scalp. It happened for me right away as soon as I switched, but some people say it took time for their skin to adjust to it. Anyway, sulfate-free products are becoming more common, and it would be an easy change for your daughter to make without having to interfere too much with her lifestyle. It might be worth trying. Smile
#7

(04-04-2017, 12:13)Pink.Chiffon Wrote:  I kept thinking about this thread so I wanted to throw this out there.

For the oily skin, one of the absolute best things you can do is to get sulfate-free cleansing products and shampoo. When I switched to sulfate-free products, I saw a dramatic decrease in oiliness on my face, body, and scalp. It happened for me right away as soon as I switched, but some people say it took time for their skin to adjust to it. Anyway, sulfate-free products are becoming more common, and it would be an easy change for your daughter to make without having to interfere too much with her lifestyle. It might be worth trying. Smile

Ooh, Ooh, Ooh!!!!  :-)
THAT is a big help for us to look into, thank you.

To follow up, the meds are:
Blisovi, 24 Fe : Norethindrone acetate and ethyl estradiol tablets 1 mg (with ferrous fumarate tablets, 0.02 mg)
Citalopram HBR 40 mg (1X daily)

I've been thinking we should even treat her as MTF transgender, but I'm very concerned about too much exogenous estrogens...  BO would likely help the most.  But, she has low body temperature (95-96 degrees). :-(

Feel sorry for her, but then I recall she's not good about keeping up with her meds...  and I care less.  ;-)  :-P

-Dianna
#8

(06-04-2017, 05:42)Dianna1395 Wrote:  
(04-04-2017, 12:13)Pink.Chiffon Wrote:  I kept thinking about this thread so I wanted to throw this out there.

For the oily skin, one of the absolute best things you can do is to get sulfate-free cleansing products and shampoo. When I switched to sulfate-free products, I saw a dramatic decrease in oiliness on my face, body, and scalp. It happened for me right away as soon as I switched, but some people say it took time for their skin to adjust to it. Anyway, sulfate-free products are becoming more common, and it would be an easy change for your daughter to make without having to interfere too much with her lifestyle. It might be worth trying. Smile

Ooh, Ooh, Ooh!!!!  :-)
THAT is a big help for us to look into, thank you.

To follow up, the meds are:
Blisovi, 24 Fe : Norethindrone acetate and ethyl estradiol tablets 1 mg (with ferrous fumarate tablets, 0.02 mg)
Citalopram HBR 40 mg (1X daily)

I've been thinking we should even treat her as MTF transgender, but I'm very concerned about too much exogenous estrogens...  BO would likely help the most.  But, she has low body temperature (95-96 degrees). :-(

Feel sorry for her, but then I recall she's not good about keeping up with her meds...  and I care less.  ;-)  :-P

-Dianna

I really hope the sulfate free products help! They're getting much easier to find these days too!

Bovine ovary won't work unless she finds a way to increase her body temperature. I think body temperature needs to be over 98.2F/36.8C. I noticed when I started bioidentical hormone therapy, my body temperature increased on its own. I also had an autoimmune disease that attacked my thyroid so I think getting a handle on that helped as well.

Yes, pills will not do everything for you. You have to be diligent in taking them and you have to help yourself! Just taking pills will not make up for bad lifestyle choices. It might just be a matter of growing up too.
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