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Oral PM counterproductive? Is topical better?
#1
Question 
I love my PM, but I was doing some reading about Growth Hormone and IGF-1, and noticed this:

Quote:Oral estrogen treatment suppresses IGF-1 production in the liver, where approximately 80% of serum IGF-1 originates from,[50] and reduces total serum IGF-1 levels (by 15–40%, dependent on dose and type of estrogen administered), as well as increases levels of insulin-like growth factor-binding protein 1 (IGFBP1) (a carrier protein that inhibits IGF-1 binding/activity).[51] This results in a state of functional GH resistance (as GH induces IGF-1 production and secretion in the liver to mediate most of its effects),[50] with combined oral estrogen and GH being less effective in evoking the clinical effects of GH relative to GH alone in clinical studies of individuals with hypopituitarism/GHD.[51] In contrast, treatment with combined GH and transdermal estrogen has been found not to decrease IGF-1 levels or increase IGFBP1 levels.[51] As such, estrogen administered via other routes of administration that bypass the liver, such as transdermal (in the form of estrogen patches), sublingual, intranasal, intramuscular injection, and subcutaneous injection, may be significantly more effective than oral estrogen.[51]
- Wikipedia article on Hormonal Breast Enhancement

So the big question: Is oral PM somewhat or even ultimately counterproductive? Is this evidence that topical PM would be much better for increasing estrogen without damaging progress in other areas?
I know PM like anything isn't fully absorbed when ingested, but I didn't mind as long as it worked well enough. But now I'm having second thoughts now that I've read this!

Can the more scientifically knowledgeable folks here shed some light? Blush
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#2
Actually, I should have named this thread Oral estrogen instead of just only PM. If anything this finding covers all estrogenic herbs taken orally, such as fenugreek... Ah, I wish I can move this thread to the Herbal Breast Enhancement side of the forum! haha
Maybe I'll just make another thread with the same post and questions? Don't want to spam the forum, however. Sad

Thinking on all of it again however, I can't help but wonder if PM and other herbs with phytoestrogen would even have the same effect or processing through the body as the estrogen they used for the study, estradiol, an active form of estrogen. Looking at the sources, for the oral side of the study they used a product called Estrofem by the company Novo Nordisk, which contains 2 mg estradiol. And for the transdermal side they used 50 micrograms of estradiol (System, by the company Janssen-Cilag).

I don't really know how active the liver gets processing phytoestrogen to use in the body or how, so again if anyone could chime in it would be greatly appreciated!
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#3
(23-06-2018, 12:25 AM)HopefulKitKat Wrote: Actually, I should have named this thread Oral estrogen instead of just only PM. If anything this finding covers all estrogenic herbs taken orally, such as fenugreek... Ah, I wish I can move this thread to the Herbal Breast Enhancement side of the forum! haha
Maybe I'll just make another thread with the same post and questions? Don't want to spam the forum, however. Sad

Thinking on all of it again however, I can't help but wonder if PM and other herbs with phytoestrogen would even have the same effect or processing through the body as the estrogen they used for the study, estradiol, an active form of estrogen. Looking at the sources, for the oral side of the study they used a product called Estrofem by the company Novo Nordisk, which contains 2 mg estradiol. And for the transdermal side they used 50 micrograms of estradiol (System, by the company Janssen-Cilag).

I don't really know how active the liver gets processing phytoestrogen to use in the body or how, so again if anyone could chime in it would be greatly appreciated!



Oral (E2) estrogen impairs IGF-1 in the liver.
http://www.breastnexus.org/showthread.php?tid=28234

If anything keep the thread here, if that doesn't work let me know and I'll move it.
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#4
Yea the Queen of things NBE is back
I sure missed you Lotus!
Bobbi
Oh and please put an avatar back so I can pick you out of the crowd.
Happy summer
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#5
(23-06-2018, 02:00 AM)Lotus Wrote: Oral (E2) estrogen impairs IGF-1 in the liver.
http://www.breastnexus.org/showthread.php?tid=28234

If anything keep the thread here, if that doesn't work let me know and I'll move it.


Yayyy, Lotus! I was hoping you'd shed some light! Big Grin Thank you so much!
I'd personally prefer the thread's name and location to be changed since this pertains to nearly all aspects of NBE, but if it's too much trouble and you feel it's fine here then that's okay.

So back on topic, does this mean we shouldn't take oral forms of estrogen at all if we can get topical alternatives? What if we can't get those alternatives, would it still be worth taking oral estrogen if it ultimately inhibits growth? Also, this may be a jump in logic, but since oral testosterone has the opposite effect on IGF-1 (?), would that mean taking oral forms of anti-DHT and testosterone have a similar effect on the liver as estrogen? Or I guess not since they indirectly affect estrogen outside the liver, huh?
Just thought I'd get all my dumb questions out the way now. Blush
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#6
(24-06-2018, 07:14 PM)HopefulKitKat Wrote: Yayyy, Lotus! I was hoping you'd shed some light! Big Grin Thank you so much!
I'd personally prefer the thread's name and location to be changed since this pertains to nearly all aspects of NBE, but if it's too much trouble and you feel it's fine here then that's okay.


Hi kittykat, ok I'll take of it. Smile


 
(24-06-2018, 07:14 PM)HopefulKitKat Wrote: So back on topic, does this mean we shouldn't take oral forms of estrogen at all if we can get topical alternatives?
 



We need the liver to activate the CYP P450 enzyme system (which account for about 3/4 of drug metabolism). However, transdermal application accounts for 60% absorption, but....oral delivery effectiveness is only 15 to 20%. So, from my experience utilizing 3 methods (including sublingual) work together.


(09-03-2014, 11:02 PM)Lotus Wrote:
General averages of rates/ratios when consuming herbs


Q-How long does a capsule take to dissolve?

A-Typically the average is up to 20 minutes, some sources have at 5-10 minutes while others say 20-30 minutes. Extracts 1 to 4 minutes

Q-What are typical absorption results?

A-For skin application- 60%

A-Liquid- 98%

A-capsule- 10-20%

Q-What is the capsule to extract ratio?

A-20 to 1, meaning it would take 20 capsules to = 1 teaspoon of extract


Q-When is the best time to take an herb?

A-In general herbs are best taken on an empty stomach


 
(24-06-2018, 07:14 PM)HopefulKitKat Wrote:  What if we can't get those alternatives, would it still be worth taking oral estrogen if it ultimately inhibits growth?


Lots of things inhibits growth, like low blood glucose, diabetes, drug interaction, digestion issues, pH balance is off, unsafe products... etc, etc. On top of that, some people lack certain genes to code enzymes to be metabolized properly. But ultimately I think one has to reset the body's immune system when taking on NBE, and what I mean by that is detoxifying the whole body, not just the liver, (fasting is my preferred method for a reset).

 
(24-06-2018, 07:14 PM)HopefulKitKat Wrote: Also, this may be a jump in logic, but since oral testosterone has the opposite effect on IGF-1 (?)


For the most part true, however T injections have the most impact over supplements (which also carry the biggest risk).


 
(24-06-2018, 07:14 PM)HopefulKitKat Wrote: would that mean taking oral forms of anti-DHT and testosterone have a similar effect on the liver as estrogen?


do mean taking anti-androgens (too inhibit DHT) while taking testosterone?.... taking this approach I think ultimately boost aromatase.

 
(24-06-2018, 07:14 PM)HopefulKitKat Wrote: Or I guess not since they indirectly affect estrogen outside the liver, huh?


You also have to consider what brain signaling has to do with the pituitary gland and GH, and this gets equally complicated as the brain (even the hypothalamus) has estrogen receptors, as do target tissues, (even the bones). As the body has about a trillion cells, a estrogen receptor (as an example) has hundreds of thousands receptor sites....however, not all go through (or make it to synthesize for transcription...aka DNA). So you can see there's lots of things that stand in the way to breast growth.

Check out this site below.... (and the other link I provided on citicholine). I do think we can overcome oral E inhibiting IGF-1.
 http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/20...ly/Page-01

The bottom line is trying to balance all the essential parts for breast growth, which means all the hormones (including GH), including diet and some form of exercise helps w/growing breasts. Avoid stress as best one can (stress trigges cortisol which can derail growth much like DHT does).



L. Wink
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#7
(23-06-2018, 04:34 PM)Happyme Wrote: Yea the Queen of things NBE is back
I sure missed you Lotus!
Bobbi
Oh and please put an avatar back so I can pick you out of the crowd.
Happy summer


Hi bobbi,

Lol, queen?, nah...but thanks for the kindness, missed yah too. I do have an avatar at breastnexum BlushShy
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#8
Off topic I know, but Lotus you just made my day. I was looking for things that increase IGF-1 and I saw your post about MSM . I've been thinking to add MSM into my routine since I had muscle soreness due to stress . I am also interested in increasing IGF-1 for fitness purposes and NBE.

Literally crying .
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#9
Lotus Wrote:We need the liver to activate the CYP P450 enzyme system (which account for about 3/4 of drug metabolism). However, transdermal application accounts for 60% absorption, but....oral delivery effectiveness is only 15 to 20%. So, from my experience utilizing 3 methods (including sublingual) work together.
 


I meant to ask about sublingual application... Would it be possible to with something that's not a liquid? Like, could I bust up my PM capsules and spread the powdery contents under my tongue for a while? Could the properties somehow absorb there if I leave it for long enough, about half an hour or so? It'd be very hard not to swallow for that long though for me, especially in the mornings.
Once enough time passes and I think my tongue absorbed enough, should I just swallow it all anyway or spit it out? I guess I should spit it out since that's the whole point to avoid the liver, but I'm such a cheapskate! Tongue


Lotus Wrote:
General averages of rates/ratios when consuming herbs


Q-How long does a capsule take to dissolve?

A-Typically the average is up to 20 minutes, some sources have at 5-10 minutes while others say 20-30 minutes. Extracts 1 to 4 minutes

Q-What are typical absorption results?

A-For skin application- 60%

A-Liquid- 98%

A-capsule- 10-20%

Q-What is the capsule to extract ratio?

A-20 to 1, meaning it would take 20 capsules to = 1 teaspoon of extract


Q-When is the best time to take an herb?

A-In general herbs are best taken on an empty stomach


 
Lotus Wrote:Lots of things inhibits growth, like low blood glucose, diabetes, drug interaction, digestion issues, pH balance is off, unsafe products... etc, etc. On top of that, some people lack certain genes to code enzymes to be metabolized properly. But ultimately I think one has to reset the body's immune system when taking on NBE, and what I mean by that is detoxifying the whole body, not just the liver, (fasting is my preferred method for a reset).


Oh man, fasting is so hard! Could I like, do an apple fast maybe? Where all I eat is apples for some time. I tried it once but I think I couldn't help but give up! Maybe if I eat a combination of veggies and fruits I can stick with it much better, more so as a general cleanse away from junky food...
 
Lotus Wrote:do mean taking anti-androgens (too inhibit DHT) while taking testosterone?.... taking this approach I think ultimately boost aromatase.


Ack, I meant inhibiting both DHT and/or testosterone, but now my head's getting all jumbled, haha! But good to know!
I've been looking for a good DHT inhibitor and read many of your posts, but am still undecided on which to go for. So far I'm leaning towards Red Reishi...
I don't want to mess with testosterone at all, taking Saw Palmetto didn't sit well with me.

 
Lotus Wrote:You also have to consider what brain signaling has to do with the pituitary gland and GH, and this gets equally complicated as the brain (even the hypothalamus) has estrogen receptors, as do target tissues, (even the bones). As the body has about a trillion cells, a estrogen receptor (as an example) has hundreds of thousands receptor sites....however, not all go through (or make it to synthesize for transcription...aka DNA). So you can see there's lots of things that stand in the way to breast growth.

Check out this site below.... (and the other link I provided on citicholine). I do think we can overcome oral E inhibiting IGF-1.
 http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/20...ly/Page-01

The bottom line is trying to balance all the essential parts for breast growth, which means all the hormones (including GH), including diet and some form of exercise helps w/growing breasts. Avoid stress as best one can (stress trigges cortisol which can derail growth much like DHT does).



L. Wink


My biggest struggles since childhood are getting decent nutrition and most of all consistently adequate sleep... I was always a picky eater, so even though I don't eat burgers or Thanksgiving dinner, the few foods I do eat mostly aren't the best. I gave up soda, punch, and juice for only water when I first started getting acne, and even slowly fazed out snacks and desserts over the years (except sometimes chocolate Reese's yumm!!!), and recently started to eat more kale and broccoli/cauliflower along with actually cooking real meals for myself more often... But I still got a long way to go.
As for sleep... Sometimes I feel lack of sleep is what ultimately plagued me with acne all these years, and now that I think about it probably stunted my boobs too. Dodgy I can't think of the last time I consistently fell asleep at a good time through the entire week let alone month... Probably before I was 10.

Anyway, I'll pick back up with exercise this week since I fell off for the past couple weeks, and continue on my never-ending quest to go to bed when I should. :'D

Thank you again, Lotus!

(Also, sweetorange, reading your post is making me kick myself since I just gave my MSM away!)
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