[AbiDrew85]

And I ordered progesterone cream today:

(Sorry, I couldn't add all 4 pictures in one post...)

When all of these come, that puts my list of herbs at:

• Fenugreek capsules (610 mg)
  
• Fennel seeds
  
• Wild Yam cream (14%)
  
• Saw Palmetto soft gels (160 mg)
  
• Hops flowers (dried)
  
• Red Clover capsules (430 mg)
  
• L-Tyrosine capsules (500 mg)
  
• Pueraria Mirifica cream
  
• Pueraria Mirifica capsules (350 mg)
  
• Progesterone cream
  

Now, I'm still unsure of which of these to use and when, so I'm looking for advice more so now than ever...

I believe I speak for everyone when I say KISS is best.

That said... Mixing phytoestrogens is NOT good. If you're going to use PM, don't use hops, RC, OR fennel. Likewise for any of the others if you choose not to use the PM...

I don't know what effect WY cream will or will not have. I know of only two effects, only one really good one, and I am only AWARE of it working internally, not topically for that use.

IF you need the saw palmetto, take all month a steady dose.

IF you need the L-tyrosene, take all month a steady dose.

PM CREAM is probably safe to use all month topically, but may cause problems if used too close to menstruation. If so for you, simply don't take too close to menstruation.

PM capsules, probably best to use some kind of cycling. Personally I use liquid extract to control dosing better and mimic the estrogen levels during a normal cycle.

PC, the same as PM, ONLY if you need it, but with the progesterone levels not the estrogen levels, obviously.

I've covered my own cycle pretty thoroughly in my own thread. Other girls cycles are covered in their own threads.

[Morose]

I believe I speak for everyone when I say KISS is best.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean here...

That said... Mixing phytoestrogens is NOT good. If you're going to use PM, don't use hops, RC, OR fennel. Likewise for any of the others if you choose not to use the PM...

From what I understand, PM is strictly a phytoestrogen. I was hoping I'd be able to add fenugreek or hops to help with swelling by utilizing their prolactin side. Is there another way to achieve that effect without conflicting herbs?

I don't know what effect WY cream will or will not have. I know of only two effects, only one really good one, and I am only AWARE of it working internally, not topically for that use.

When I tried NBE the first time around (before I found these forums), I felt effects from the WY. Which is why PC was suggested. I agreed that I may need something a bit stronger.

IF you need the saw palmetto, take all month a steady dose.

I'd like to avoid... I don't want any more cellulite than I do now -_- However, I'm curious if an anti-androgen is something I should look into.

IF you need the L-tyrosene, take all month a steady dose.

I read that it would be a good growth hormone for my needs as it can speed metabolism which would help with my exercise regimen as I pursue NBE. I was debating between L-Tyrosine and L-Arginine, but I can't remember why I ruled the other out..

PM CREAM is probably safe to use all month topically, but may cause problems if used too close to menstruation. If so for you, simply don't take too close to menstruation.

I'll do a bit more research on this only because it is a cream and it may or may not be wise to cycle. You can never be too safe!

PM capsules, probably best to use some kind of cycling. Personally I use liquid extract to control dosing better and mimic the estrogen levels during a normal cycle.

PC, the same as PM, ONLY if you need it, but with the progesterone levels not the estrogen levels, obviously.

My original intention was to mimic the rise and fall of my own hormones as well, however in stronger herbs considering I lack normal amounts of either.

That's another reason why SP was even on the list. Anti-androgens block DHT, correct? And I'm assuming if I have low amounts of both estrogen and progesterone, that must mean I have higher levels of testosterone. Also, I read somewhere that you can achieve better results when you pair herbs that contain diosgenin together (although I thought could only be synthesized into progesterone in a lab). But I hate the only SP side effect I know of...

Ugh!! NBE is a damn labyrinth!! >.<

[laika186]

I believe I speak for everyone when I say KISS is best.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean here...

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but AbiDrew probably means something along the lines of Keeping It Simple Silly/Stupid', when the work KISS is used. Speaking to oneself, of course, about how too many things all together might end up giving you no results! I came across one version of it in BigDave's signature. Am I right, AbiDrew??

Laika

[Morose]

Ah, okay. Still learning some of the terminology around here.

I know better than to have so many things going on at once xD I'm just looking for which ones can and can't be mixed to achieve results.

[AbiDrew85]

Yeah, that's what KISS means.

Fenugreek is not a phytoestrogen, and it's use with any phytoestrogen should be safe.

You are correct about what saw palmetto does, and I think we'll just leave it there and not discuss why you're using the wrong terminology there

You might consider pygeum instead. It does the same thing as sp, and afaik it doesn't have the cellulite problem. I don't know what other interactions if any it might have.

EDIT:

BTW... You mentioned getting results from a WY cream before... Did you manage to retain any of those "results"? Or were they just swelling after all?

The two things WY does are, first, it raises prolactin, which can cause temporary swelling. Second, it shuts off the negative feedback loops, allowing you to take your hormone levels higher than you could otherwise. FG is the same thing.

[Morose]

Fenugreek is not a phytoestrogen, and it's use with any phytoestrogen should be safe.

It's not?! O.o

You are correct about what saw palmetto does, and I think we'll just leave it there and not discuss why you're using the wrong terminology there

Wrong terminology?...

You might consider pygeum instead. It does the same thing as sp, and afaik it doesn't have the cellulite problem. I don't know what other interactions if any it might have.

I haven't heard pygeum around the forums, I'll research it.

BTW... You mentioned getting results from a WY cream before... Did you manage to retain any of those "results"? Or were they just swelling after all?

It seems to have stayed. There's no numerical results when I measured this morning, but they seem to have a fuller look. I hope that's not just my imagination though from hope... xD

[AbiDrew85]

It seems to have stayed. There's no numerical results when I measured this morning, but they seem to have a fuller look. I hope that's not just my imagination though from hope... xD

Interesting. You may be one of the lucky ones, I'm not sure what exactly it is that happens that allows some to retain gains from WY creams, but hey, if it works for you!

[Morose]

I take it I did have very low progesterone levels as I suspected. Now I'm a bit worried since I read somewhere that progesterone stalls any kind of growth. Maybe, in theory, if I just keep my estrogen levels higher, I may be able to balance this seesaw effect... I'm starting to get so frustrated! (lol) And here I thought I was great with science... Not so good with chemistry though

For the past (almost) two weeks I've been taking 2 fenugreek capsules (610mg each) a day, 2 red clover capsules (430mg each) a day and 2 wild cream massages a day. I've been feeling a bit discouraged as I haven't been having any tingles anymore. :/ So starting today I've decided to take a total of 4 fenugreek, 2 red clover, 2 saw palmetto and once I check the mail, the progesterone cream arrived so I'll be massaging with that twice a day. Of course I disperse the pills at even intervals throughout the day to keep a constant flow in my system. The reason I'm adding SP is because at this time, according to the menstrual cycle charts I linked to in an earlier post, testosterone levels should be slowly climbing for a short time. I'm hoping to block DHT production to allow more room for estrogen.

Once I get to my mailbox I'll also see if either the PM pills or cream have shown up. If so, I'll have to alter my routine a bit and play around with different things to see what works.

*sigh* Still feel like I have no idea what I'm doing despite researching daily until I get headaches from staring at the screen. xD We'll see!

[Morose]

Today I found a GNC store hiding in a strip mall in my town and decided to take a look around. I was surprised to see they carry almost everything I've seen listed throughout these forums (the guy didn't seem to know what pueraria murifica is though, but that's okay since I already have them on order online anyhow). I picked up a product called "Natural Curves" (443mg). It contains extracts from each of these herbs; saw palmetto, wild yam, dong quai, blessed thistle, dandelion root, fennel seed, ginseng root, and black cohosh root.

It seems to have all the right ingredients. Is anyone familiar with this product?

I also grabbed some evening primrose oil. Only issue is they're soft gels rather than the actual liquid. I wonder if they would still be just as effective. I almost want to poke holes in the gelcaps and squeeze the liquid out to use.

In other news; I think I need to stop the saw palmetto. I'm breaking out pretty bad. I've also decided red clover was a dud for me. I had no response to it. Oh well, at least I tried. :3

I've kept steady with my fenugreek, totaling 2,440mg a day. I'm also going to add just one more capsule to ramp up to a nice total of 3,050mg a day. The PM cream finally came too. I was pretty upset to see how small the jar turned out to be.. So my program has changed a little bit, but I'm gaining a better understanding of what works and doesn't work for me.

[Morose]

Yes! Aches and tingles again! Could this be the PM cream?

I posted a question about the "Natural Curves" pill and it was stated that anyone who's came across it experienced little results due to such a low content of the herbs inside. Pity too, I thought I may have solved the issue of taking so many different pills a day. :/

However, one of the ingredients is fennel, which I had included in my very first program. I wonder if that may have something to do with the tingles. I'm going to add some fennel on chicken breast tonight at work like I did before and see if I notice stronger sensations.

In other news, I came across a thread on another forum written by Wahaika that contains so much information it's taking me days to take notes and study. Here is the link for those who don't have it: http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029&page=1

Time to research until my head explodes