[lostacres6]

I'd like to get updates on this - so much good info. And yes, I miss Isabelle for her wealth of knowledge.

[surferjoe2007]

Yeah I think this could use some updating based on information that's been going around in these forums and elsewhere.

I think fenugreek, shatavari and goat's rue should be moved to adaptogens. Probably maca and wild yam too, though they may be different. They don't affect any one specific hormone. All 3 give prolactin to those lactating, yet don't make you lactate if you are not already. All 3 have a history of testosterone use for straight males, yet not estrogen nor prolactin in them... unless their hormones are already different. Real phytoestrogens can compete with PM, but these don't; if anything they improve the PM too. It's also good to separate them because AFAIK the more you use the more you benefit, without diminishing returns. Many effective programs use a lot.

Zearalenone is a dangerously powerful estrogen imitator that should not be used. It is not in any clean grains, it is only in fusarium grain mold. Unlike herbs studies have linked it to cancer. It may as well be a street drug version of prescription hormones.

I think the idea that progesterone stops NBE is outdated now that several people have gotten rapid multi-size results from it, especially in combination with a strong phytoestrogen like PM. The theory is that while progesterone can lower estrogen and stop NBE, it's also necessary for you to have any response to estrogen. You need both in balance, not only one or the other.

5-6 grams L-arginine should be added to "Human Growth Hormone". It's in several studies and is the main ingredient of many HGH products. Some other aminos help too but it's easy enough to get the smaller amount needed for them from protein. The best source is turkey but it's also in other meat and nuts. Not so much in dairy nor beans, except soy has a lot.

Omega 3s are in fish but are not complete in flaxseed oil nor any common plant. Flax and chia seeds do have helpful ALA omega 3s but not EPA nor DHA omega 3s. There are some vegan algae based EPA + DHA supplements. Though fish oil may raise testosterone.

[lostacres6]

Thanks surferjoe,
A few questions: What is shatavari? What others can be used with PM beside those you mentioned? Fennel? Your thoughts on whether collagen helps or is a waste? Pig placenta - help or waste?
I'll probably think of more later Thanks for your input.

[surferjoe2007]

Shatavari is Indian asparagus root. AFAIK American asparagus root has similar effects. Just like fenugreek and goat's rue it has been used for lactation, breast enlargement, and yet also male potency. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any extracts. So just like other dry herbs large amounts (which traditional Indian sources often recommend) can upset the stomach. Tea could prevent this if the powder is discarded after brewing. Here are some studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=shatavari

If real phytoestrogens are used with PM they compete rather than add, and everything else is weaker than PM. Non-phytoestrogens are ok. Red clover and whole flax seed (but not flax oil) are the main ones, since they are highly concentrated in weak phytoestrogens. I'm not sure about fennel because it might have a prolactin effect too, and I don't know if its phytoestrogens are concentrated enough to get in the way.

Since breast tissue is fat, milk ducts and collagen, collagen can help. Besides providing mass its main function is support and lift; it makes the rest of the body springy too and it's good for joints. But it requires huge amounts not usually found in supplements. So collagen *supplements* are usually a waste. You're better off with MSM, chicken's feet broth, beef tendon or tripe. MSM (sulfur) makes collagen by changing softer protein into harder connective tissue collagen, just like the way they use sulfur to vulcanize soft gummy rubber into hard car tires. The last 3 are consumed in food amounts, 50 times larger than any pill. And in fact many people report results from MSM or chicken's feet which are perhaps the two best sources.

I don't know anything about organs like pig placenta.

[JennyG]

Thank you dear your info is very helpful!! However I do have a question about using saw palmetto tho...

I've read some side effects about saw palmetto and many studies says it will interact with soy and other estrogen boosting foods... I am kinda estrogen deficient, not sure if I should take it? And also they say it might cause imbalance of hormones...now I'm really not shire about whether or not to take it...

Anybody has taken it and got benefit results??

Plz help and thanks!!!!![/code]

Source: http://www.ehow.com/list_6069440_precaut...women.html

[surferjoe2007]

The interaction with phytoestrogens is likely to be a positive boosting effect, not a counteracting effect. Testosterone gets in the way of estrogen. Saw palmetto extract blocks the conversion of testosterone into the much stronger "bad" DHT testosterone. Lots of people here combine SPE with a phytoestrogen.

In general the information in that link is rather poor and generic. For example the concern of increased bleeding is one "case" not "cases", which was reversed after halting the supplement. Everything else says SPE is great because it doesn't increase bleeding like finasteride does (the anti DHT drug). I'm guessing the one case was an illegally drug spiked supplement. In general SPE has an amazing safety record. There are some more legitimate but harmless complaints directly related to loss of DHT: loss of libido. It's uncommon and probably in those who hardly have any testosterone, estrogen or dopamine either, so DHT was the only hormone they had left for libido.

I like to search studies here for info instead: http://www.pubmed.gov

[JennyG]

The interaction with phytoestrogens is likely to be a positive boosting effect, not a counteracting effect. Testosterone gets in the way of estrogen. Saw palmetto extract blocks the conversion of testosterone into the much stronger "bad" DHT testosterone. Lots of people here combine SPE with a phytoestrogen.

In general the information in that link is rather poor and generic. For example the concern of increased bleeding is one "case" not "cases", which was reversed after halting the supplement. Everything else says SPE is great because it doesn't increase bleeding like finasteride does (the anti DHT drug). I'm guessing the one case was an illegally drug spiked supplement. In general SPE has an amazing safety record. There are some more legitimate but harmless complaints directly related to loss of DHT: loss of libido. It's uncommon and probably in those who hardly have any testosterone, estrogen or dopamine either, so DHT was the only hormone they had left for libido.

I like to search studies here for info instead: http://www.pubmed.gov

Thanks for the info surferjoe2007!!

[lostacres6]

Surferjoe,
Another question from someone trying to "get it right": I'm taking PM 500 mg. twice a day. I was prescribed Premarin (conjugated estrogen) by my doctor for dryness. I weaned myself down to only using it 6 days out of the month. Will it have any negative effect on the effectiveness of PM?
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with all of us.

[surferjoe2007]

I believe real estrogen is stronger than any herb, even the strongest herb PM, so it won't get in the way. When I said "everything else" I meant other herbs.

[SaraG]

Since breast tissue is fat, milk ducts and collagen, collagen can help. Besides providing mass its main function is support and lift; it makes the rest of the body springy too and it's good for joints. But it requires huge amounts not usually found in supplements. So collagen *supplements* are usually a waste. You're better off with MSM, chicken's feet broth, beef tendon or tripe. MSM (sulfur) makes collagen by changing softer protein into harder connective tissue collagen, just like the way they use sulfur to vulcanize soft gummy rubber into hard car tires. The last 3 are consumed in food amounts, 50 times larger than any pill. And in fact many people report results from MSM or chicken's feet which are perhaps the two best sources.

Thank you, I've just been looking at collagen supplement on an online chemist shop and noticed MSM came up next to it in the search. I couldn't decide which to buy. So MSM will create more collagen but collagen supplements itself won't be useful??