[shortcake]

So here I am, starting yet another new program. And once again I need some help! I have taken PM in the past with very moderate success but I also totally overdid it and started experiencing estrogen dominance and wasn't able to continue taking it. (In my defense, it was the first form of NBE I'd tried and didn't realize at that time that I was so sensitive to the hormones.) So I know that it could really work for me, if only I can get the cycling and dosage right. This was about 4 years ago, before all the more recent information about cycling and using other herbs at certain times of the cycle was really even available. I was doing the typical "start on first of period, take for 14 days (or 15? can't remember) and then stop, start again the following cycle. It's no wonder it messed up my cycles and overall wellbeing.

After trying the "other" typical herbs (individual and WU) and then BO and not tolerating either very well, I'm moving on to PM. A lot of what made me decide to give it another chance is that it allows for so much experimentation and room to tweak the dosage. The problem I'm having is that there are now so many different ways of doing that, that I'm not sure what would be best for me to start out with.

Here are the negative symptoms I've had with literally every single NBE program I've done (except for Noogleberry, of course):

* The major problem is that the day my period ends, or the day after, I will end up with a horrendous headache. Not only does my head feel beyond miserable, I also feel overwhelmingly exhausted, tired, lethargic, etc. My thinking will be very foggy. I literally feel like I can't function - mentally or physically. It's worse than any flu or head cold type of sickness. The next day will usually be quite a bit better as far as the headache goes, but I'll feel like I've been hit by a truck. Still really tired and lethargic. I'm assuming this is because estrogen levels are at the highest around day 7 of a cycle, so that in combination with whatever I'm taking is just bringing my estrogen over-the-top. So whatever cycling program I go with, I really need it to work against that.

* Acne. Typically occurs a week or so before my period starts. When I was on WU I had a pimple on my chin at the time I ovulated, but it was very minor and went away within a few days. On BO I had a pimple on my chin that appeared a little over a week before my period started. It seemed like it wasn't going to be that bad, but then a couple others popped up and the first one got worse. It's still not gone, a little over 3 weeks later. I've never in my life had a breakout last that long.

Really that's about it... Those are really the only side-effects I've encountered this time around with NBE. I can't say that I won't experience any new ones with PM, but as of now, those are the main problems I'm trying to combat. So I need my program to work against those.

Some general information about my cycles:

* Normally (naturally) 28 days long.
* I always know when I ovulate, and it's always on day 14. So I'm very regular, naturally, with my cycles.
* Periods usually last 5-7 days. I would say 5 or 6 is average.
* I normally don't get any cyclical headaches or other side-effects. It's only when on NBE that that happens.
* I was on Beyaz, which is a low-dose combination bcp that completely eliminated all hormonal breakouts and any random headaches. I always had a lot of pains, soreness, and swelling. I went up at least half a cup size, if not a little more. I felt very balanced, both mentally and physically, while taking it. So it seems that I really need that balance of estrogen and progesterone. Not just loads of extra estrogen.

I was originally thinking of doing something like GorgeousBlonde, and take PM on days 7 (or 8, depending on however long my period was) thru day 12 (to allow for ovulation, since I ovulate on day 14). Then starting back up again on day 18-24 (those numbers may need some tweaking? not totally sure just how much time to allow for ovulation, and at what point I should stop taking PM before my period would start). I think that would be good for me to try, so that way I'm not getting the extra estrogen during my period, and not taking it on that first day after to hopefully avoid that mess. But then I wonder if I should do something like starting on day 1, stopping on day 14, and then use PC cream or take something to increase progesterone in the luteal phase.

OR, can I follow GorgeousBlonde's cycling program but still use PC cream in the luteal phase (even though I would be taking PM during that time too)? That's probably a stupid question. I'm just trying to get this figured out. :huh:

[Isabelle]

Hi shortcake,

The experience with PM cycles is not yet advanced enough to help you with this. Frankly, I expect PM will make the problem at the end of your period much worse.

What you experience at the end of your period are most likely symptoms of estrogen dominance, but there is also a slight chance that it's estrogen deficiency. If you bet on dominance, it would be best to start PM two or more days after the end of your period. If you bet on deficiency, it would be better to take a low PM dose after day 25 through your period. If you get the bet wrong, the problem will get much worse.

My gut feel is that after your period, when your natural estrogens are on the rise, you get estrogen dominance symptoms because your natural progesterone will not start rising until day 11. This is what normally happens in a cycle, only you appear to be sensitive to it. So I would try something that may look counter-intuitive: fenugreek or licorice, to get a little progesterone or phyto-progestin to balance the increasing estrogens.

At the end of your cycle, you clearly need an anti-androgen. Since licorice has one too, that might be a good choice at this time too.

[shortcake]

Thank you so much for your wonderful (and fast!) response! As always, your help is greatly appreciated.

I do think you're right regarding your hunch about needing something to add a little progesterone as my period ends. Licorice sounds like a good choice, for the anti-androgen properties you mentioned as well. So now I'm wondering, if I begin taking PM a couple days after my period ends, that would make it around day 8. So should I still stop on day 12? Or should I extend that to day 14? I know that would make my cycle longer... But would taking PM for only 5 days during the follicular phase be enough? Also, on which day do you think I should resume with PM after ovulation? Should I stop on day 25? And when would you recommend I start taking licorice in order to hopefully help with the acne problem and lessen the blow from the naturally rising estrogen after my period, and when should I stop? I would assume I'd start the day after I stop taking PM and continue until I resume PM after my period.

One more thing I'm not sure about is which parts of my cycle I should take more PM and which parts I should take less. Is it less in the follicular and more in the luteal? I'm going to start out with VERY small amounts for both, but just not sure how to work that out. Or should I keep it the same amount for both?

I know you can't tell me exactly what will and won't work for me but you know so much more about this than I do! I really appreciate having the help of someone who is so much more knowledgeable about this than I am! Thank you!

[Isabelle]

Thank you shortcake,

You really overestimate what I know. With all the work that went into cycling PM for months, Susan is the only one to get two natural cycles of the same length. And even then, they were both 36 days, and she felt horrible during the last week.

I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can:

The highest estrogen peak is days 9-11. Estrogens rise gently from day 6, and drop to zero steeply on day 12. Even if you start on day 8, you can still stop on day 12. Pansy Mae experimented with different lengths of estrogen peaks, and found it was difficult to maintain the highest dose for longer than 2 or 3 days without headaches anyway. It's the slow rise and the steep drop that convey the estrogen signal, not how many days you can stay at the peak dose.

You can feel when you ovulate. So far, I haven't read about any objection against starting PM the minute after. The whole problem exists only because PM suppresses ovulation.

You should decrease to your minimum dose on day 25. I'm still not sure if that means zero. In the natural estrogens cycle, it's not. And stopping PM triggers an ovulation. I don't know if a second one in the same cycle is even possible, but if you feel it, you can try it out.

Start licorice on day 6. On day 11, your natural progesterone rise will take over. Start again after ovulation, and stop when your period starts. Susan felt like she was pregnant and had PMS at the same time when she was waiting for her period. I'm not sure if licorice would be the herb of choice to prevent that, but it will prevent acne because of the anti-androgen in it. The traditional herb for luteal phase is vitex agnus castus (chaste tree berry), but I don't really know how this should be used.

In the luteal phase, you take less PM than during the peak in the follicular phase. In the natural cycle, progesterone is higher than estrogens in luteal phase. Add fennel tea or fenugreek. There is a schedule in Susan's program thread:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8440&pid=32874#pid32874

[shortcake]

Isabelle,

You really do know a lot about all this, and what you don't know, you take the time to research and come up with an answer or at least a possible answer. You don't just simply answer the questions you already know the answers to; you'll tackle any problem that comes up and try to offer a solution. And you're amazingly great at responding to anyone who requests your help - and even those who don't specifically call on you - and that's what makes you so wonderful to have around! Despite all my NBE attempts over the years and all the reading and research I've done, I still usually feel like I don't know what the heck is going on. All the information can be overwhelming at times.

Thanks so much for outlining a PM program for me. I'm going to give it a try. As you said, it may make my symptoms worse but I feel like it's something I need to try so I don't have to wonder. I've exhausted nearly all my options for NBE and want to make sure I've given everything a fair chance.

I do have one last question for you. I've decided I'm going to take Ainterol's PM. I was debating whether to use that or Siriporn, but since Siriporn is so potent, I don't want that making it more likely that I'll experience the negative effects. Taking into account what you may know of Ainterol's potency and average dosage, what what amount would you recommend I start out with? As I mentioned before I want to start very low. I'm just not sure what would be considered "low" with that brand of PM, or with any brand of PM for that matter.

Thanks again!

[Isabelle]

Thank you shortcake,

It really feels good to be appreciated.

When your program is in full swing, use 1 Ainterol capsule as the lowest dose, 2 during days 18-24, and up to 3 during the peak on days 9-11. The first cycle, don't go that high, but stay at 2. If you get no headaches, try 1 day (day 11) at 3 capsules the second cycle, and two or three days the next cycles.

Good luck!

[shortcake]

Isabelle,

I got to thinking about what I had said and I hope I didn't convey the wrong message. I didn't mean to imply that the only reason you're nice to have around here is because of the help and answers you provide for us. While that is greatly appreciated, your humor and kindness are just as valued. I didn't mean to sound selfish!

Thanks so much again for your help. I've got everything outlined for my program and am ready to start! I'm not really sure when to expect my next period since I stopped taking BO so abruptly at the beginning of my cycle. I don't know if that could have possibly messed things up or not. But I will post my new program and progress as soon as I begin!

So sorry to bug you again with yet another question, but another forum member recently posted a question that brought to mind another one for me. I'm unsure as to which days it will be okay for me to use the PM lotion I've ordered (Ro-Bust). I don't want it to interfere with my efforts to raise progesterone during my luteal cycle and on days 6-10, but I'm not sure if just the lotion would be strong enough to do that. Should I only use it on certain days?

[Isabelle]

Hi shortcake,

Don't worry, I didn't take it the wrong way. I do feel appreciated and supported

I would use Ro-bust only during the peaks, days 6-11 and 18-24. But I would use it for different purposes than the capsules. The lotion absorbs fast. So why not use it to improve mood, or to quench an overdose of fennel tea? You can also use it for diagnosis: suppose you get a headache, but you don't know if it's from estrogen dominance or deficiency. Try some lotion and see if the headache improves. If it gets worse, wash the lotion off and drink water to get the miroestrol out of your blood stream before it gets to the liver.

[shortcake]

Great suggestions, Isabelle! I will do just that.

Change of plans! I received my order from Siriporn today and it turns out they accidentally sent me a bottle of their PM pills instead of the lotion! Some may see that as an annoyance but I like to think of it as a twist of fate. I had been debating for a while whether I should try Ainterol or Siriporn... I decided on Ainterol, but it seems the final decision has been made for me. The company refunded the extra that I'd paid for the lotion, so I will try to order it again. I will adjust my dosages accordingly, since Siriporn is so potent.