The way that the big three (FG,SP,WY), work together, is pretty obvious, once you take the time to understand their respective effects on the body. What's not so obvious is why you should combine different herb that have almost no effect other than to provide phytoestrogens, as least when it comes to BE. There are plenty of phytoestrogen sources that people combine for BE, and I often wonder why, but mainly I wonder about the combinitation of fenugreek and fennel. Does anyone know exactly why this combination is recommended, or does it "just work"?
When I say herbs "that have almost no effect", I don't mean ineffective herbs, I mean herbs that don't seem to have any BE effects other than providing phytoestrogens. I just realized that part might not have made sense.
(12-07-2011, 09:41 PM)mochaccino Wrote: [ -> ]There are plenty of phytoestrogen sources that people combine for BE, and I often wonder why
I guess because not all phytoestrogens are the same.
Every herb with strong phytoestrogens contain different types of phytoestrogens. Basically you have to figure out what works for you. By reading this you can see that Pueraria Mirifica has the same phytoestrogens and soy plus more. So if PM didn't work for you in breast enhancement then Soy extracts won't either. Then you could try Red Clover instead because it contains pratensein and irilone which PM do not have. Each persons body is different and you have to give each strong phytoestrogen a chance before saying it doesn't work for you, if it doesn't, move on to another to see if it works
Pueraria Mirifica
The main phytoestrogen in PM is "miroestrol" which is a estrogenic phenol. The others are deoxymiroestrol, daidzein, genistin, genistein, B-Sitosterol, stigmasterol, coumestrol, pueraria, campesterol. PM is supposedly 100 times stronger than Red Clover and 3,000 times stronger than Soy
Red Clover
Red clover contains irilone and pratensein phytoestrogens Red clover is supposedly 30 times stronger than Soy
Soy Isoflavones
Soybeans or the soy Isoflavones in Soybeans is genistein and daidzein.
The Saw Palmetto, Fenugreek, and Wild Yam "super 3" are taken to help your body use the phytoestrogens of PM RC or Soy (or if you chose another phytoestrogenic herb) Saw Palmetto is taken to block androgens and testosterones from interfering with the phytoestrognes you are taking so that the phytoestrognes can work better without the opposite testosterone in the way. Fenugreek helps the liver process hormones better and utilize and use them better. Wild Yam provides your body with progesterone so that your body doesn't become estrogen dominant when taking strong phytoestrogens
Does that answer your question and please let me know if I am wrong on something I am still learning, but I am QUITE sure this is correct.
Gogirlanime, nice research! PM is definitely one of the key sources of phytoestrogens recommended around here, but RC and soy are not. They are usually just minor add-ons to an existing plan. RC in particular is not recommended by Wahaika, but I'm not sure of his exact reasons.
The fenugreek, in th FG-SP-WY combo, is meant to be the main source of phytoestrogens, not to help the body use other phytoestrogens (but you can still take others).
Saw palmetto always works by preventing the conversion of testosterone into DHT, but it has different effects in men and women. In men it's taken to prevent DHT from interfering with feminization. In women it's also taken to block DHT, but the reasons for doing so are more complicated. All the estrogen in the body is produced using aromatase and testosterone. This means that testosterone that is not converted into DHT, tends to be converted into estrogen in females, as long they produce enough aromatase to do so. A diet high in animal protein, as well as the supplements EPO and borage oil, are used to increase aromatase.
WY increases the body's production of estrogens in general, and estradiol in particular. As far as I know, the way in which it does this is unknown. Many people used to think that WY is progesteronic, but the current consensus is that it is not, even if many irresponsible companies still market it that way.
The big three combo comes from Wahaika's recommended plan, which was based on Pammy's plan, which was in turn based on the original Greenbush plan. Here's a link to the plan he recommends:
http://nbelab.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nbeprograms&action=display&thread=79 (It's the second post)
And here's a link to the theory section of his site:
http://nbelab.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nbetheory
You should start with the post "basic theory". I didn't really understand BE until I read it.
(15-07-2011, 08:41 AM)mochaccino Wrote: [ -> ]Gogirlanime, nice research! PM is definitely one of the key sources of phytoestrogens recommended around here, but RC and soy are not. They are usually just minor add-ons to an existing plan. RC in particular is not recommended by Wahaika, but I'm not sure of his exact reasons.
The fenugreek, in th FG-SP-WY combo, is meant to be the main source of phytoestrogens, not to help the body use other phytoestrogens (but you can still take others).
Saw palmetto always works by preventing the conversion of testosterone into DHT, but it has different effects in men and women. In men it's taken to prevent DHT from interfering with feminization. In women it's also taken to block DHT, but the reasons for doing so are more complicated. All the estrogen in the body is produced using aromatase and testosterone. This means that testosterone that is not converted into DHT, tends to be converted into estrogen in females, as long they produce enough aromatase to do so. A diet high in animal protein, as well as the supplements EPO and borage oil, are used to increase aromatase.
WY increases the body's production of estrogens in general, and estradiol in particular. As far as I know, the way in which it does this is unknown. Many people used to think that WY is progesteronic, but the current consensus is that it is not, even if many irresponsible companies still market it that way.
The big three combo comes from Wahaika's recommended plan, which was based on Pammy's plan, which was in turn based on the original Greenbush plan. Here's a link to the plan he recommends: http://nbelab.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nbeprograms&action=display&thread=79 (It's the second post)
And here's a link to the theory section of his site: http://nbelab.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nbetheory
You should start with the post "basic theory". I didn't really understand BE until I read it.
oh wow! Thank you for correcting me on my errors, this was quite interesting 
at least I was right about what type of phytoestrogens are in each herb haha 
Say, I want to start using Pueraria Mirifica as my phytoestrogen/estrogen provider. But you say that Wild Yam and Fenugreek are the suppliers of that in the FG-SP-WY combo, so would that mean that I would want to take just PM and SP together or PM, SP, and WY?
From what I have learned about myself, I have excess androgens so I know SP is a must for me and then of course I need the "building" phytoestrogen and I'm choosing PM, but does that mean I still need the WY? Or if you don't know the answer to that, could you please guide me to a link that will. Thank you for your help
As far as I can tell, every one who knows anything about PM on this site says that you should not mix it with weaker phytoestrogens, especially wild yam. PM is just much more effective on it's own for some reason. I've tried hard to find a clear explanation exactly why this is the case, but I'm still not quite sure. I should point out that there are a few people on here who combine the two, but they never actually take them at the same time. They cycle between them according to their menstrual cycle. Ginie's been doing it for a while now, because she's copying Chiyomilk's routine.
(12-07-2011, 09:41 PM)mochaccino Wrote: [ -> ]why you should combine different herb that have almost no effect other than to provide phytoestrogens, as least when it comes to BE.
I suppose different herbs are supplying different classes of phytoestrogens.
[align=justify]Denver, Im sure you're right about that, I just couldn't figure out why anyone would need to take different classes of phytoestrogens. Recently I've been toying with the idea that strong phytoestrogens, especially estradiol mimics,are capable of causing estrogen dependent cells to proliferate faster than they can die out, but can not, in and of themselves, instruct the cells to stick around. I think it's possible that ingestinga wide array of phytoestrogens allows some percentage of "lucky" cells to get a balance of phytoestrogenscapable of keeping them from offing themselves long enough for the body to send them the proper balance of real estrogens. Of course,i dont even know if estrogen dependemt cells actually rely on "a proper balance of estrogens". I totally just pulled that idea out of my butt
. Maybe someone with an actual basic knowledge of biology or medicine, unlike me, can tell me whether this idea has any merit whatsoever.
Fenugreek, shatavari and I think maca deregulate hormone activity, increasing the effects of existing hormones and thus tend to be the main part of most programs. Some herbs such as fennel provide prolactin; these also tend to be popular for lactation. Some are for progesterone. Some such as saw palmetto reduce DHT, the stronger testosterone. Some provide nutrients, raw materials, such as MSM or omega 3s. Increasing insulin sensitivity such as cinnamon (bark or leaf) or cloves, and increasing HGH production (e.g., L-arginine or a food source of it) plays a smaller role. AFAIK for actual phytoestrogens they compete with each other and with real estrogen, and can saturate receptors so that there's no more room left, so it is more effective to have the strongest type rather than a large amount.