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Ah yes Germany! Hops=Beer that makes total sense. Cant say I've been a big drinker of beer, and i wouldnt start now due to the carbs and of course GLUTEN! There is gluten free beer however. Im not against trying that, its not too bad. However the only one we can get over here doesnt tell you the carb contents and Im restricted on carbs. Tell you what those german girls arent overweight either for the little I've seen, they have genuinely big busts and lovely figures.

Off to google the Nordic diet. But what you summarized Beattie i wonder if the bigger cups sizes is relevant to clothing size too! The women in my family have LARGE breasts too! But they are a good 2-3-4 clothing sizes more than myself too. I still maintain for my height and even slight frame my breasts are certainly too small. Something biologically went wrong there. It could have been mental, i didnt WANT breasts cause i was brought up to think they were bad and i didnt want to have them - my caregivers influence. Be interesting i had ACTUALLY WANTED them during puberty.

Good points re poverty and Asia & parts of India. I wonder if the statistics would reflect differently on a richer diet. 

Interesting how Japan consuming the most soy and i guess PRE fukishima days were some of the healthiest in the world.

Yes will refer back to Zaras progesterone files. Need to be more structured with what i take. Id truely like to acheive a good balance by way of diet and not pills! 

Beattie yeh the 100-200 mg mark was what the pharmacys suggested which sold PM, it seemed 120mg was suitable for the average sized female based on weight. Look Il try drag it out for you one day if you are concerned. I wanted to get the slices (you consumed) but couldnt get into the country. It was a miracle i got the tea slices. Had customs realised there were actual food slices in that package it would have been seized! 

I got mine from siamnatural.com and they were/are very quick and forthcoming with information if requested. I just grabbed the bag, it says the RDI is 50-150mg per day. It warns "not for under 20" year olds and not to use if any tumours are present in female organs. Hmm say no more huh. We found a wonderful paper once how pure PM is actually an estrogen metabolizer... If you found a legitimate source.
(04-06-2017, 08:06 PM)EllaC Wrote: [ -> ]Ah yes Germany! Hops=Beer that makes total sense. Cant say I've been a big drinker of beer, and i wouldnt start now due to the carbs and of course GLUTEN! There is gluten free beer however. Im not against trying that, its not too bad. However the only one we can get over here doesnt tell you the carb contents and Im restricted on carbs. Tell you what those german girls arent overweight either for the little I've seen, they have genuinely big busts and lovely figures.

Off to google the Nordic diet. But what you summarized Beattie i wonder if the bigger cups sizes is relevant to clothing size too! The women in my family have LARGE breasts too! But they are a good 2-3-4 clothing sizes more than myself too. I still maintain for my height and even slight frame my breasts are certainly too small. Something biologically went wrong there. It could have been mental, i didnt WANT breasts cause i was brought up to think they were bad and i didnt want to have them - my caregivers influence. Be interesting i had ACTUALLY WANTED them during puberty.

Good points re poverty and Asia & parts of India. I wonder if the statistics would reflect differently on a richer diet. 

Interesting how Japan consuming the most soy and i guess PRE fukishima days were some of the healthiest in the world.

Yes will refer back to Zaras progesterone files. Need to be more structured with what i take. Id truely like to acheive a good balance by way of diet and not pills! 

Beattie yeh the 100-200 mg mark was what the pharmacys suggested which sold PM, it seemed 120mg was suitable for the average sized female based on weight. Look Il try drag it out for you one day if you are concerned. I wanted to get the slices (you consumed) but couldnt get into the country. It was a miracle i got the tea slices. Had customs realised there were actual food slices in that package it would have been seized! 

I got mine from siamnatural.com and they were/are very quick and forthcoming with information if requested. I just grabbed the bag, it says the RDI is 50-150mg per day. It warns "not for under 20" year olds and not to use if any tumours are present in female organs. Hmm say no more huh. We found a wonderful paper once how pure PM is actually an estrogen metabolizer... If you found a legitimate source.
Map of breast size: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8625788
Map of obesity: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8625788

German obesity isn't that bad.  Out of the large breasted countries, Norway and Sweden are the ones with low obesity.  You really shouldn't restrict carbs at all.  Nor try to get protein at all (it's hard to avoid getting enough even if you tried).  The healthiest and most nutritious foods tend to be whole carb foods and dark veggies.  And you'll starve if you only eat dark veggies.  Foods with protein only and no carbs tend to be meat or protein powders which are both horrible for you, for nutrition, health and boobs.  Besides seafood anyway, which is good.

Last time I was looking for studies on PM I had difficulty finding anything over 100 mg and most where for menopause at 25-50 mg.  Based on NBE history PM tends to stall often until additional steps are taken.  I think 50-150 mg PM, not cycled,  plus a similarly small option for progesterone is a fairly safe bet without taking other steps.  Once nutrition is better and other herbs are used I think more PM & PC can be used if cycled.  Even then start low and see how much is best.
(04-06-2017, 08:42 PM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-06-2017, 08:06 PM)EllaC Wrote: [ -> ]Ah yes Germany! Hops=Beer that makes total sense. Cant say I've been a big drinker of beer, and i wouldnt start now due to the carbs and of course GLUTEN! There is gluten free beer however. Im not against trying that, its not too bad. However the only one we can get over here doesnt tell you the carb contents and Im restricted on carbs. Tell you what those german girls arent overweight either for the little I've seen, they have genuinely big busts and lovely figures.

Off to google the Nordic diet. But what you summarized Beattie i wonder if the bigger cups sizes is relevant to clothing size too! The women in my family have LARGE breasts too! But they are a good 2-3-4 clothing sizes more than myself too. I still maintain for my height and even slight frame my breasts are certainly too small. Something biologically went wrong there. It could have been mental, i didnt WANT breasts cause i was brought up to think they were bad and i didnt want to have them - my caregivers influence. Be interesting i had ACTUALLY WANTED them during puberty.

Good points re poverty and Asia & parts of India. I wonder if the statistics would reflect differently on a richer diet. 

Interesting how Japan consuming the most soy and i guess PRE fukishima days were some of the healthiest in the world.

Yes will refer back to Zaras progesterone files. Need to be more structured with what i take. Id truely like to acheive a good balance by way of diet and not pills! 

Beattie yeh the 100-200 mg mark was what the pharmacys suggested which sold PM, it seemed 120mg was suitable for the average sized female based on weight. Look Il try drag it out for you one day if you are concerned. I wanted to get the slices (you consumed) but couldnt get into the country. It was a miracle i got the tea slices. Had customs realised there were actual food slices in that package it would have been seized! 

I got mine from siamnatural.com and they were/are very quick and forthcoming with information if requested. I just grabbed the bag, it says the RDI is 50-150mg per day. It warns "not for under 20" year olds and not to use if any tumours are present in female organs. Hmm say no more huh. We found a wonderful paper once how pure PM is actually an estrogen metabolizer... If you found a legitimate source.
Map of breast size: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8625788
Map of obesity: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8625788

German obesity isn't that bad.  Out of the large breasted countries, Norway and Sweden are the ones with low obesity.  You really shouldn't restrict carbs at all.  Nor try to get protein at all (it's hard to avoid getting enough even if you tried).  The healthiest and most nutritious foods tend to be whole carb foods and dark veggies.  And you'll starve if you only eat dark veggies.  Foods with protein only and no carbs tend to be meat or protein powders which are both horrible for you, for nutrition, health and boobs.  Besides seafood anyway, which is good.

Last time I was looking for studies on PM I had difficulty finding anything over 100 mg and most where for menopause at 25-50 mg.  Based on NBE history PM tends to stall often until additional steps are taken.  I think 50-150 mg PM, not cycled,  plus a similarly small option for progesterone is a fairly safe bet without taking other steps.  Once nutrition is better and other herbs are used I think more PM & PC can be used if cycled.  Even then start low and see how much is best.
Hey.
The carbs i need to restrict are more the breads and starches (the things that helped me gain weight) . This is the pits but my gut condition restricts too much of the starchier stuff and also too much fibre can irritaate my gut too. Im kinda stuck with cooked veggies, little potatoe, sweet potatoe and trial and error essentially. Oh and lots of meat which i just dont want to eat. Beans and legumes are mostly out. For me the SCD diet is my best bet, restricts foods that feed excess bacteria and which they feed on. 
Agreed with the protein powders! Ive read that too and thats also a shame as they helped me keep my weight up! Cant win!


Agreed re PM too. I not that invested Id actually take the stuff ha ha. Id experiment with a little tea however Smile
I know what you mean, Ella (regarding pills).  I'm trying to come up with a NBE plan that requires as few pills as possible. The less the merrier lol Really, the less, the healthier in our case. That's why I thought that with something like PM (I know, there are risks obviously but a very low dose doesn't sound as scary....), one could just take that during follicular and that's it. No need for other phytoestrogens etc. Coz all the other herbs seem to work only when you take them together with other herbs, which is a nuisance (and even riskier, in our case). Yes, please let me know where you read that 120 mg pf PM is suitable for women! XX

Surferjoe, wouldn't it be good to cycle low doses of PM too? We don't want to get our estrogen levels too high during our luteal phase.
Ella, just copying what I read in one of the sites that sells PM (siriporn): Warning prolonged excessive doses of phytoestrogens can cause hypoparathyroidism!

Have you ever heard of hypoparathyroidism? Another reason why one should take low doses.....as for "prolonged", how do we know how long that means?? A year? That's also why I want to know if something like PM gives permanent results. One can't keep taking it forever for maintenance....sometimes side effects don't manifest immediately but they could show up later.
(04-06-2017, 09:55 PM)bettie32 Wrote: [ -> ]Ella, just copying what I read in one of the sites that sells PM (siriporn): Warning prolonged excessive doses of phytoestrogens can cause hypoparathyroidism!

Have you ever heard of hypoparathyroidism? Another reason why one should take low doses.....as for "prolonged", how do we know how long that means?? A year? That's also why I want to know if something like PM gives permanent results. One can't keep taking it forever for maintenance....sometimes side effects don't manifest immediately but they could show up later.

Never heard of hypoparathyroidism? Not Hypothyroid? OH man another thing to worry about!
Yes anything in excess over a period of time isnt good if its not natural to our routine. Id say a few months but at the risk of loosing growth whats the point!!!!
Yes the PM sellers you wana buy off are the ones that GIVE you these heads up! Now you've added this its all equating up to the "not worth the risk" cateogory...
(04-06-2017, 08:57 PM)EllaC Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-06-2017, 08:42 PM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-06-2017, 08:06 PM)EllaC Wrote: [ -> ]Ah yes Germany! Hops=Beer that makes total sense. Cant say I've been a big drinker of beer, and i wouldnt start now due to the carbs and of course GLUTEN! There is gluten free beer however. Im not against trying that, its not too bad. However the only one we can get over here doesnt tell you the carb contents and Im restricted on carbs. Tell you what those german girls arent overweight either for the little I've seen, they have genuinely big busts and lovely figures.

Off to google the Nordic diet. But what you summarized Beattie i wonder if the bigger cups sizes is relevant to clothing size too! The women in my family have LARGE breasts too! But they are a good 2-3-4 clothing sizes more than myself too. I still maintain for my height and even slight frame my breasts are certainly too small. Something biologically went wrong there. It could have been mental, i didnt WANT breasts cause i was brought up to think they were bad and i didnt want to have them - my caregivers influence. Be interesting i had ACTUALLY WANTED them during puberty.

Good points re poverty and Asia & parts of India. I wonder if the statistics would reflect differently on a richer diet. 

Interesting how Japan consuming the most soy and i guess PRE fukishima days were some of the healthiest in the world.

Yes will refer back to Zaras progesterone files. Need to be more structured with what i take. Id truely like to acheive a good balance by way of diet and not pills! 

Beattie yeh the 100-200 mg mark was what the pharmacys suggested which sold PM, it seemed 120mg was suitable for the average sized female based on weight. Look Il try drag it out for you one day if you are concerned. I wanted to get the slices (you consumed) but couldnt get into the country. It was a miracle i got the tea slices. Had customs realised there were actual food slices in that package it would have been seized! 

I got mine from siamnatural.com and they were/are very quick and forthcoming with information if requested. I just grabbed the bag, it says the RDI is 50-150mg per day. It warns "not for under 20" year olds and not to use if any tumours are present in female organs. Hmm say no more huh. We found a wonderful paper once how pure PM is actually an estrogen metabolizer... If you found a legitimate source.
Map of breast size: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8625788
Map of obesity: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8625788

German obesity isn't that bad.  Out of the large breasted countries, Norway and Sweden are the ones with low obesity.  You really shouldn't restrict carbs at all.  Nor try to get protein at all (it's hard to avoid getting enough even if you tried).  The healthiest and most nutritious foods tend to be whole carb foods and dark veggies.  And you'll starve if you only eat dark veggies.  Foods with protein only and no carbs tend to be meat or protein powders which are both horrible for you, for nutrition, health and boobs.  Besides seafood anyway, which is good.

Last time I was looking for studies on PM I had difficulty finding anything over 100 mg and most where for menopause at 25-50 mg.  Based on NBE history PM tends to stall often until additional steps are taken.  I think 50-150 mg PM, not cycled,  plus a similarly small option for progesterone is a fairly safe bet without taking other steps.  Once nutrition is better and other herbs are used I think more PM & PC can be used if cycled.  Even then start low and see how much is best.
Hey.
The carbs i need to restrict are more the breads and starches (the things that helped me gain weight) . This is the pits but my gut condition restricts too much of the starchier stuff and also too much fibre can irritaate my gut too. Im kinda stuck with cooked veggies, little potatoe, sweet potatoe and trial and error essentially. Oh and lots of meat which i just dont want to eat. Beans and legumes are mostly out. For me the SCD diet is my best bet, restricts foods that feed excess bacteria and which they feed on. 
Agreed with the protein powders! Ive read that too and thats also a shame as they helped me keep my weight up! Cant win!


Agreed re PM too. I not that invested Id actually take the stuff ha ha. Id experiment with a little tea however Smile

That sucks.  Sweet potatoes and potatoes are good if you can leave the skin on.  What you might try then is juicing cilantro, spinach and/or parsley.  Add 200 mg calcium per lb. of spinach and 100 mg. calcium per pound of cilantro or parsley to neutralize the bitter oxalic acid.  From calcium powder.  A pint of juice a day is good.  You'll need a masticating juicer to handle leaves, rather than centrifugal which does a poor job on them.  EDIT: You can/should add other produce for flavor, such as apples.  This doesn't count much towards the pint though because they are good but not nearly as good as cilantro/spinach/parsley.

What's your gut condition?  Kefir with L. acidophilus listed high on the cultures can help out healthy stomach flora.  Though I don't know if you have something else weird going on.

Then hopefully you can find a starch you can eat or maybe some fat fuel such as coconut oil.  Coconut oil french fries maybe?  The main issue with protein powder is that it's empty calories.  If you can get the nutrients from juicing then the powder might not be so bad.  Still a load on your kidneys and digestion but a limited amount could be ok.

Besides that a tbsp. chia seeds, whole eggs, seafood, 2000 iu vitamin D.

bettie32 Wrote:Surferjoe, wouldn't it be good to cycle low doses of PM too? We don't want to get our estrogen levels too high during our luteal phase.
You can cycle or not cycle low doses since it shouldn't affect your estrogen levels too much.
If you're having health issues then 25-50 mg PM might be better, and then only if you're not estrogen dominant.  Supply missing estrogen without using so much that it puts a strain on the body.  Likewise a teeny tiny bit of PC wouldn't be bad if progesterone is low.  And really health issues are best addressed with nutrition.
Hey thanks for the suggestions will try them out. Yeh L Acidophilus is a tricky one. Has the potential of ovegrowing in the small intestine and can cause acidosis although this is rare. It's the bifido strains I'm trying to get more of although kkefir can he very therapeutic for my condition as I don't take an other acid based probioticsSmile
(05-06-2017, 12:04 AM)EllaC Wrote: [ -> ]Hey thanks for the suggestions will try them out. Yeh L Acidophilus is a tricky one. Has the potential of ovegrowing in the small intestine and can cause acidosis although this is rare. It's the bifido strains I'm trying to get more of although kkefir can he very therapeutic for my condition as I don't take an other acid based probioticsSmile
Kefir can be high in biffidus too.  That's actually more common.  Check the label.
I didn't initially want to write this post, but after long and hard contemplation, I realize I just can't hold my tongue on this topic, and I feel the need to point some things out. But before I get into what I want to say, I just want to state that I don't write any of this in a mean spirit, so I hope no one takes it as such, especially Ella!! 

Ella, I understand that you are very biased against certain herbs used for NBE and you certainly have great reasons to be due to your individual sensitivities and also personal convictions, so I'm not going to waste my time, neither yours, in trying to pull you aboard the herbal bandwagon. I think your personal choices are your own, and everyone should want to research, form their own opinions, and then choose their own NBE path because as we all know, not everything works for everyone. 

With that said, besides the clear differences in wealth and poverty between certain countries which will indeed effect something like breast growth, most of everyone is also forgetting the differences and implications that cultures have on such things as these. A study of anthropology would showcase this immediately: Different cultures have different perceptions of beauty and it's important not to view these things with an ethnocentric mindset. For instance, I was talking to my friend once about how bras have actually been studied to contribute to long term breast sag. She immediately and rather ignorantly pointed out that people in African countries are often depicted with long saggy breasts and they don't seem to wear bras. SIGH. What she forgets is that beauty standards are different there and culture plays a huge part in these things. If you're interested, I'll point you to an excellent article that explains why cross-cultural beauty examinations are ignorant and insensitive on this bra debate topic: http://www.thelingerieaddict.com/2013/11...gging.html If you read the article, you'll see that many of those points can also be applied to this line of thinking posed on this thread. I'm not saying this to demean this thread or as a personal attack on you, Ella, so I hope you don't take it that way at all, but I do say this to point out some apparent ignorance (and I'm not saying that meanly, I'm saying this with literal meaning. We are all ignorant on some level, after all). 

So going back, as a person who is from a multicultural family, and who was raised on solely an Asian diet, I can say that while Asians do tend to eat more soy products than Americans, we are not sitting around gorging ourselves on tofu, especially not with any mind to grow our breasts. Pointing out that Asians consume more soy than any other country and therefore should be expected to have bigger breasts, is not taking into consideration how soy is consumed within a diet, nor how that relates to a functioning NBE program. I'm pretty certain the same could be said for the other countries that you mentioned, as well. Considering that Americans don't tend to eat soy at all or in rather low quantities, an Asian who ate soy 2 to 3 times in a week would largely be considered as more than most average Americans, but is that to say that it is enough to grow breasts and is it logical to compare that to an NBE program? 

Going back to specifically culture, to say or even expect that women from these countries should have bigger breasts is to normalize the Western standard of beauty while demeaning and making inferior these countries own personal perceptions of beauty. Yes, women in America might be high on the list for a country with bigger breasts BUT that is largely due to our countries standard of beauty that advertises and promote bigger breasts on women, which in turn: makes women want their breasts bigger. So women will do things such as NBE or get breast implants or fat transfers or whatever they can do to increase their bust size, and this is something that will inflate the average size of women's breast in America as well as other countries. Some of these countries do not put as much emphasis on bigger breasts on a woman as a standard of beauty, and in a lot of Asian countries, in particular, smaller breasts are seen more appealing and desirable. Women in Thailand might consume more PM than women in USA but that's not to say or imply that they are doing so for bigger breasts. Also, once again consider, most American women have never heard of PM, so a woman from Thailand who drank PM tea once or twice a week would certainly be a lot more than a woman from the US might consume, but once again: is this enough to grow breasts, especially when that probably is not even their aim for consuming PM? 

Speaking of breast implants, let's talk about how that effects some of these countries with bigger breast size averages. Most, if not all, of the countries that have bigger breast sizes are on the same list as countries with most breast implants per capital (look it up!), and I should point out that the average breast sizes in different countries are not limited to just women with natural breasts. 

I hope you can see and understand how this is really futile. It would be as if I posed the question why do Americans have bigger butts compared to Asians or any other country and then trying to connect it with our diets alone while completely forgetting the differences in culture, wealth, and also standards of beauty and how that will influence women to achieve bigger butt sizes (and also the rise and desire to have Kim Kardashian butts in America, lol). 

I think that how something is consumed and not just how much, is of significant importance and relevance in terms of NBE. If I took a small amount of PM every day, let's say PM tea, should I expect my breasts to grow in a years time? I don't think that answer is a firm yes. You can theoretically take an NBE herb every day for years, but if the dosage is not high enough to actually affect hormonal changes in your body, it will more than likely have no impact in terms of breast growth (if that is even your goal). Also, committing to an NBE program (which is what we are all doing for the most part) and following it, is very different from just having something naturally be a part of your diet (which is true for many of the countries you have listed).

Lastly, I think that it's a rather moot point to compare breast sizes with certain herbs and the places they are largely consumed in because as we all know, NBE herbs work differently for different people. As an example, PM may not work for everyone, but it has been widely shown to work for a lot of women as well as men and I think that isn't something that can just be overlooked because Thailand women aren't the bustiest of women. Same goes with other herbs you may have listed. Just because the countries that most widely consume an herb isn't as well endowed as some would expect, doesn't render the NBE success stories we have on this forum as well as on other forums worthless. So the question here isn't "Why do women try *fill in the blank* for breast growth when it doesn't work for women who consume it largely in their native country as part of their diet?" because clearly it does work for some people who are specifically on an NBE program, and as I've already mentioned, dosages matter when taking herbs. High dosages doesn't mean more effective, and low dosages never will be effective. High dosages as well as not cycling seem to be the main culprit for the ugly side effects of some herbs, and that is rather common knowledge here. Personally, I have built a considerably large list of my own favorite PM success stories, of women who have kept their growth (and have stated so), so that's not a question either. But I do think stopping an NBE herbal program too soon can result in a loss of growth, just like with Noogleberry, and also, everyone is different so how a herb effects someone long term is of course going to be varied (definitely worth repeating). 

I know I've probably written this out rather bluntly, but I assure you that I do so with no ill-spirit, but only to inform and illuminate some of the flaws in your logic as well as the ignorance in your questionings. I just hope that you don't take any offense, because truly that is not my intentions nor desire, but I do hope that you try to understand my points and where I'm coming from in saying all this.


Xoxo
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