12-02-2016, 12:34 AM
Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007 at 9:35 AM Moon (Login -Moon-)
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Hello girls, I got this idea recently. How come we aren't putting more emphasis on significence of herbs which increase prolactin production - galactogogues, in NBE? I notice that WU is the only commercial pill which contains significent ammounts of galactogogues, particulary goat's rue (the strongest one, if I'm not mistaking), blue vervain and alfalfa. Some of the common herbs we use are also known to have been used for increasing breast milk - FG, fennel, hops, milk thistle, blessed thistle etc. But we can observe that WU contains more galactogogues that a usual routine. So I was thinking that they might be very good for NBE. In theory it makes sense - prolactin is said to redirect fat deposits from other areas into the breasts.
To bad I can't buy goat's rue anywhere and ordering it from US would be way too expensive. Anyway, any opinions?
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 10:15 AM
Hrmmm...interesting.
Goat's rue increases mammary tissue so that adoptive mothers, or those with difficulty breast feeding have a better shot. I've also read that increases in breast tissue for non-lactating women has been found.
It would make sense...for those of us who tried grow yours...we were doing what(I believe) goat's rue aims to achieve.
Here's the thought though...it has also been known that although some mothers have a 'deflated' look about them after breast feeding, some of the milk some mothers produce ends up turning into fat deposits because the milk was never expelled from the breast, resulting in fuller looking breasts. Could this be permanent?
I think you're on to something moon! Nice work! ;p
*much luck and love for all!*
Lost Sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 11:06 AM
Thanks a lot Moon, now you have me wondering if I should buy some goat's rue for the hell of it to expiriment! lol
sophie
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 11:33 AM
yeah....good thinking Moon! Do you have any ideas about what Rinoa said? Do you know of any good brands in the U.S. that sell goat's rue? I know you live in Europe, but from looking around, have you found any brands that seem high quality? Do you have any ideas about what an effective dosage would be for NBE? Hmm....I just searched the UK ebay site and they don't sell supplements, but they do sell goat's rue for spells and witchcraft if that is your bag!
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 11:54 AM
I too have read that Goat's rue was observed to increase breast tissue in non-lactating women. I think it would be a good trial, together with other herbs, for certain women at least. Some have too much prolactin (not sure, but I think this might be with estrogen dominance), but some of us may have to little of it. Whenever I feel pains coming, I start massaging my lobes immediately to increase prolactin, and I get more pains. A galactogogue herb would further support this prolactin production. I think it's best to do more that one thing for NBE, for example, GY by itself didn't do much for me, but when I combined it with a good BCP, herbs and suction (the best thing for increasing blood supply to the breasts imo) I got my first inch of growth.
Some women reatain a lot of size after breastfeeding, and some don't. Lactation and similary increasing prolactin would probably work for some women but not for all, like any NBE method. I think it's a good trial tho. I'll try to get myself some goat's rue, if I manage to set up my ebay account without having a credit card. Oh, and here's an US manufacturer of goat's rue:
http://www.motherlove.com/
I remeber one woman from this forum ordring from them and reporting that they said they also noticed breast enlargement in women using their products (they're originally ment for breastfeeding).
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 2:23 PM
Here's an EBay store that sells the Mother's Love products. There are no vendors close to me, and the direct website was going to charge $7 for shipping and handling where as this Ebay store only charged $3.85. I'm getting the capsules. Weeeeee time to be a guinea pig! Hahahaha!
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 2:24 PM
Forgot to link the store!
http://stores.ebay.com/Elite-Breastfeeding-Supplies
Oh I just get excited thinking about making milk! LOL, kidding kidding. This will be weird if anything other than breast tissue forms!
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 2:42 PM
Amazon.com as carries Goat's Rue
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 3:01 PM
This has me thinking now, I have seven kids, I didn't breast-feed them but each time my milk came in I just let it dry up on it's own (it toke a few days) I ended up a bit larger each time. Before my 1st child (11 years ago) I was a small 32A (might have really been an AA) now I'm a 36B and very round. Not a huge increase but the only thing I have every taken (up until this month) is EPO for PMS. Now this increase could have as been just aging but I was a bit larger after each baby. Oh and weight wise I'm about 30-40lb heaver now than before my 1st child, I did put on a lot of weight a few years back but have lost most of it and my boobs didn't get big, I was a "full" 36B almost C cup for about six months when I was 170lb.
Ann5
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 9:03 PM
I really am intersted in hearing someones experience on goat's rue. Mainly because I haven't read anyone using it, other than for wonderup users. I wanted to try that one out but decided to go with BO because it was cheaper and I'm on a tight budget. Here's a website for the goat's rue, www.pennherbs.com. It's located in Pennsylvania. Halome if you are going to try it out please keep us updated.
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 3:21 AM
I will for sure!
Lost Sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 5:38 AM
what would be better? liquid goats rue...or capsules?
tessie
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 8:27 AM
does prolactine really cause any permanent growth or do you lose the growth later on as in the GY program? Seems to me as if prolactine effects doesn't last.
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 2:20 PM
"prolactin is said to redirect fat deposits from other areas into the breasts. "
mmm, where have you read this? I have read that prolactin increases LPL in breasts while decreases it in other areas of the body. But nothing to do with fat deposits migrating to other areas of the body. :S It is true that increased levels of prolactin are responsible for mammoplasia (breast enlargement). However, i'm not sure if the results are permanent. Like what happens to people taking some SSRIs that inhibit dopamine and have their prolactin levels raised and many times experience mammoplasia.
Just a thought
I'm willing to give the Goat's Rue a shot though, looks harmless and I'm totally fed up with fenugreek and the occasional (but awful) pimples it gives me. :|
Linz
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Violet
July 18 2007, 5:10 PM
Hi violet,
I noticed you wrote a while back that you said you experienced a decrease in hips measurement while experiencing an increase in bust. I also agree that hormones are unlikely to make fat migrate.
However - just a thought, during puberty I've heard the combination of hormones makes fat from your stomach reach your breasts (supposedly).
Anyway....
I thought it made sense with what you were taking... if I remember correctly, vitex, fenugreek & sometimes fennel. As vitex increase progesterone/estrogen ratio... and progesterone prevent weight gain from the stomach down area of your body (as well as prolactin). FG & fennel are galactogues (so I've read a few times)so any fat is directed to the breasts. Well, I think it's very good in theory anyway.
I really want to try your routine after my current one is finished. I've taken vitex for 3 months but it just gives me spots - maybe I'll give it another try with the FG and fennel though!
How are your results coming along anyway, if you don't mind me asking.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 5:31 PM
LPL - LipoProtein Lipase is an enzyme that resides on the walls of the capilares, picks up fats from the blood and tranfers them into the nearby fat cells. So ''increases LPL in the breasts and decreases it in other parts of the body'' = ''redirects fat from other parts of the body into the breast''. I've read that certain drugs can cause mammoplasia, also those that result in high levels of prolactin. But I don't think we can compare NBE with a pathological or drug induced condition. The herbs we use don't normally have extreme actions and usually have an overall balancing effect on our hormones.
I'm rather pissed that goat's rue is so hard to find to buy, I hope I can order it throguh ebay without a cradit card.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 5:50 PM
I think you people have wrong conception on this 'hormones making fat migrate'. It's absolutely a fact that they do. Human body isn't unchangable, it's a very dynamic state in which substances are degraded an rebuilt, storages empties and refilled all the time. So the fats from the stomach don't literally travel into the breasts, just more fats from the stomach are used and less deposited, while moer are deposited into the breast. It's about making a slight shift in this constantly moving balance in fat distribution, not literally redirecting fats. Female body changes its shape when hitting puberty and that is mostly fat distribution. And finally, hormones have been known to be the agents governing fat distribution for a long time. If not hormones, what would?
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 6:29 PM
"does prolactine really cause any permanent growth or do you lose the growth later on as in the GY program? Seems to me as if prolactine effects doesn't last."
No hormone's effects last. Hormones are released, act on a receptor for a certain time and are after that certain time degraged or eliminated from the circulation. The time of action varies from a few mili seconds to a few hours. My point is - that was an absolutely too oversimplistic way to discuss anything hormone related.
Lost Sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 7:27 PM
Goats rue is quite expensive - I think I will wait and see how it works for you ladies and then go from there
Linz
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 1:02 AM
Good point moon - about the dynamic state of the body etc...
By the way, where does everyone get the info on the LPL prolactin thing? I've only ever read it on this forum. Did you come across it in your medical studies?
xx
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 7:57 AM
I am sooo glad you started this topic Moon!
I too am going to get my hands on some Goat's rue...namely the mother love brand as I know them to be quite reputable.
As Moon is, I am playing around with a little suction while on a break from herbs; currently i'm just taking a little borage, some milk thistle and a multi vitamin.
Son i'm going to introduce some Hops...see how that goes while I wait for my GR to arrive.
This will definately be interesting though. Even if GR only increases size while you're taking it, it will be good for my work ball in september! I have a dress I just can't fill! ;p
It would be good for those taking GR or something relating to galactogogues or prolactin keep tabs on their progress...and we'll see how it all goes.
I just want to mention again that Moon is definately an inquisitive wealth of knowledge, and it is valuable to have her here. Thanks Moon!
*much luck and love for all!*
Davi-lee
(Login Davi-lee)
info. on goats rue
July 19 2007, 8:10 AM
Im new here,but wanted to say that you may want to consider something before using Goats rue.
I looked it up in my field guide as it is a native plant.
It is Tephrosia virginiana,Pea family,its another legume,most legumes have some level of estrogenic compounds.
Anyway,it says that it was given to farm animals,milk goats to increase their milk production except it was discovered that the plant also contains Rotenone,which is a compound that is a natural insecticide and it will also kill fish.It is used in organic gardening methods,Im sure some of you will recognize it.
So,I would check into it thoroughly,and ask about the toxicity of the products.
Look into Kudzu.It is mostly known for being a noxious weed but there is some new research that shows that it is good for several different problems.One is it is used to relieve migranes and another it is used to stop alcoholic addiction.
It is high in the phytoestrogenic Isoflavones:daidzein,daidzin,genistein,puerarin.
Flaxseed is the grain highest in Lignans,which are estrogen balancers.
Oh,something else about Fenugreek,it lowers blood sugar levels.I started taking it and I was dragging around all the time and wondering why.I read up on it in one of my herbal books and found out that.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 1:38 PM
@Linz - you are right, I learnt about fat metabolism, including LPL, at biochemistry which is a part of my studies.
@Davi-Lee - indeed, when you mentioned rotenone, my eyes almost poped out! It's a metabolic poison, an inhibitor of celular breathing. Aftr some research however I found that there are two plants called goat's rue - Galega officinalis and Tephrosia virginiana. The first one grows in Europe and Asia and the second one in North America. The first one is the one we're talking about for NBE and the second is the one associated with rotenone. The info on the web is not very conclusive thoguh. I have emailed Motherlove and asked for their insight and whether they can guarantee their products don't contain any rotenone.
@Rinoa - Aww, thanks. :I *blushes* I'm also looking into buying goat's rue, I think it's great some of us are trying this, maybe it really does the trick. Of course after we confirm that it's not poisonous. :p
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 2:10 PM
Hi Linz,
"I noticed you wrote a while back that you said you experienced a decrease in hips measurement while experiencing an increase in bust. I also agree that hormones are unlikely to make fat migrate."
Yup, that was true. Like I wrote, it wasn't a significant decrease about 1-2cm, while increased about the same amount in the bust. What might have happened, possibly had little to do with fat deposit migration, if such thing exists..
If your body starts directing fats (the ones you eat in excess, that are on your blood stream ) giving more emphasis to other places in the body, it doesn't mean the fat deposits you have in other areas have migrated. I don't believe fat deposits migrate, they may be reduced if you exercise for example - I walk a lot and tend to exercise my bottom half more, so I tend to lose more weight in my bottom half, if, for example, i decide to cut on carbs.
Fats are taken from the fatty tissue into the blood stream too, but that's when you hit the bottom line on your liver, and have to burn those fats in order to make energy.
I was taking nettle root tea too, occasionally (more like in the 1st half of my cycle) and ginkgo biloba (for other reasons but I believed it helped a lot too). I was doing well, but ran out of herbs, money, and went on the pill. I intend to re-start that routine when possible.
In my honest opinion what helped me the most was definitely the fenugreek+vitex+ginkgo biloba.
I hope this helps and clarifies the comment I made some time ago, that might have lead some to some confusion.
I think I've found said comment:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/me...stribution
This message has been edited by _violet_ on Jul 19, 2007 2:40 PM
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 2:26 PM
"So ''increases LPL in the breasts and decreases it in other parts of the body'' = ''redirects fat from other parts of the body into the breast''
Sorry Moon... but I don't agree with you. If it increases LPL in the breasts that's pretty much it. It means the fats you eat that have to be stored somewhere, are going to be stored in a larger amount in the breasts, but will also be stored in the other places only in smaller amounts. I don't think fat deposits (especially in the bottom half in females) migrate, you may reduce the amount of fat in specific places, but that's another story, it requires that the fats are needed to be transformed in energy.
But hey, whatever rocks your boat really ;] Believing is part of NBE too, just adding my two cents on the matter...
This message has been edited by _violet_ on Jul 19, 2007 2:46 PM
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 2:57 PM
Umm, did you read anything of what I wrote? And what don't you agree on, you basically said th same thing as I did. The point is that increase in LPL in a tissue results in increased fat deposit in that tissue. "Dis/agreeng" on this is kindof silly because this is boichemical theory, not philosophy.
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 9:00 PM
Hi Moon,
Hrm, I've read your second comment, and yes, it makes more clear what you were trying to say. So basically my disagreement had to do more with semantics than anything else. When you said that ''redirects fat from other parts of the body into the breast'', I purely interpreted it in it's strict sense. I really don't see the biochemistry/medical theory in that sentence. In exact sciences, in all sciences in general, the way you put things is pretty vital. I should know heh ;]
This message has been edited by _violet_ on Jul 19, 2007 9:07 PM
Davi Lee
(Login Davi-lee)
THANKS!
July 19 2007, 9:54 PM
Thanks Moon! Im sorry if I alarmed anyone.I just saw that in my book and had to say something,.....I worry about people.
Im really glad to know about that other Goats Rue.
Is there some more info on it around in the archives?
Yes,there are problems sometimes tracking plants because several may share a common name in different countries.
Nell Gwynne
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 20 2007, 6:55 PM
In answer to the original post, I think you probably have a very good point. I had noticed that almost all the Wonderup ingredients are known as galactogogues and wondered if this was significant. I think you are probably right to draw attention to it.
Louise
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 20 2007, 7:38 PM
This is quite interesting regarding too much prolactin:
http://www.sharedjourney.com/define/prolactin.html
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 20 2007, 8:09 PM
Louise, Thank you for the link, this was great. I had no idea that my shingles could be related to this.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 21 2007, 12:47 PM
Motherlove answered me that Galenga Officinallis doesn't contain rotenone for sure, and their product neither certianly.
I tried to buy Goat's rue on eBay but no one accepts bank transfters and I can't pay any other way.
Sucky.
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 1:13 PM
Moon! Join Paypal! You can connect your bank details to it!
And thanks for contacting Motherlove!
;p
*much luck and love for all!*
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 2:16 PM
I have paypal but I can't use it, not even my bank account. That is only for US, Canada, Australia and a few European counries, mine not included.
But I did find a few Europe based on-line stores that sell goat's rue an I will email them, hopefully at least one takes my bank transfer.
black sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 2:20 PM
Increasing the prolactine seems like a great way to temporarily enlarge breasts, like for that upcoming ball, but one would have to keep taking the prolactine promoting herbs forever to keep the gains, right? Just as the Grow Yours program requires massaging forever to keep the prolactine levels high enough to keep the new size. Isn't it only estrogen that can make fat deposit in the breasts though? That seems a much better option than a temporary swelling from massage or prolactine promoting herbs. Only weightloss and dieting can reduce the size of the breasts if you got them the estrogenic way.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 5:35 PM
^Again, an oversimplistic view on breast growth. No, estrogen doesn't cause fat deposits in the breast, prolactin does that. I don't think promoting prolactin would cause temporary breast enlargement, I also don't think taking prolactin balancing herbs has the same effects as GY. It's about raising prolactin levels so that acting in concert with other hormones we achieve permanent growth. You can't achieve growth by mediating only one factor, you must make sure all the factors that affect breast growth are optimal.
Louise
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 6:02 PM
Do all of these things just deposit fat? Don't any of them actually grow breast tissue?
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 7:30 PM
Estrogen stimulates proliferation of duct nd glandular cells and progesteron as well if i'm not mistaking. Growth hormone as well sth similar surely.
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
Just a comment
July 23 2007, 7:53 AM
A breast health site I saw awhile back said that Estrogens stimulate cell mitosis and growth of the ductal system and breast fat accretion.
Progesterone stimulates growth development and differentiation of the glandular tissues,the lobules and alveoli and does have some effects on fat accretion.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 23 2007, 1:15 PM
^Yeah, I think that's more accurate.
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 23 2007, 4:03 PM
I'm also going to give Goats rue a try, I just read it's good for excess androgens (witch I have).
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 24 2007, 12:31 AM
Just got my first bottle of capsules...Here goes!!!
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 24 2007, 7:13 AM
That's great girls! Do keep us posted. I have to wait a bit longer before I can get mine.
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
Opinion on this for an intersexed person
July 24 2007, 8:50 AM
Moon,I know that being an intersexed person means I have some screwed up hormones,but do you think that this would work for me?
The G.R I mean.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 24 2007, 11:55 AM
Hmm well it's impossible to say for sure since we mostly use practice to learn from, but I guess it would or could. However, NBE has to cover all the factors that affect breast growth, no jut one, eg. take into consideration all hormones. I think first you would need a good way to block androgens, imo it's best to have several methods to block androgens at once (like nattle, SP, spear mint tea, cut out shuggars from the diet, an androgen blocker contaning BCP...). It would also be good if you were on a BCP to get some more estrogen and progesterone. And then small ammouns of estrogenic herbs. Dunno why, but it shows in practice that herbal NBE often works better with BCP. And then GR would serve to raise prolactin. I think it probably would contribute. If I'm not mistaking, prolactin has the same effects of mamary gland in both sexes (then I assume also in intersexual people). You could google on that to get more details.
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 25 2007, 8:21 PM
I got my Goats Rue today, I'll update on how I think it's going as I go along.
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 27 2007, 12:07 AM
It could just be a combo of my other stuff, but I just ended my period and have been taking the Goats Rue a couple days now (trying to follow the usage suggestion on the bottle) and my boobs feel fuller and heavier, and I think the measuring tape shows close to a half inch difference... I hope it lasts!
Luteal swelling is typically half way before the period starts, right? Like 10+ days after it ends or something? I hope this is a good sign T_T
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 27 2007, 9:32 AM
Halome...HOPE IT'S TRUE!
Keep us posted love!
*much luck and love for all!*
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 27 2007, 9:59 AM
Halome awsome, and you're right, after period the breast size is supposed to be the smallest and growth minimal. Sound promising! I hope I can find get GR soon...
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 5:12 PM
Bumping this to raise GR awareness.
bonnette
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 5:44 PM
hey
about the SugarQ explaining about galactagogues i rememeber it was in the thread i started maybe - what to do next? By Bonnette - cos i really got confused then about the difference of phytoestrogens and galactogogues. anyway i dont know how to find it cos it was quite some time ago, in april or smth but the explanations was pretty good.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 6:01 PM
That's inetresting, indeed I remember GR and galactogogue talk before too but no one tried it so far. Personally I think GR might be a good trial for those who seem unresponsive to common herb routines, which is why I'm planning to start it.
You could find the old topi by searching the site if you remeber the topic title.
waxingmoon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 7:44 PM
Moon and Bonnette, I found the post I made in reference to SugarQ's post (a reference of a reference ...)
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SugarQ posted on a thread saying that estrogens were not the way to increase breast size. It was the galactagouges that were the key (fenegreek and fennel).
Here is an a bit of the post she made. The entire post is on this thread : http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...ast+growth
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"...now breast size has more to do with body fat disribution and body weight rather then estrogen levels. estrogen does affect body size and the smaller you are the smaller your breasts and the more fat you have the more estrogen is in the your body the larger your breast(am i confusing you.lol hopefull you will get it once i finish). increasing just estrogen levels will cause women to store fat all over the body but more likely in the bottom half rather in the top. most women who do NBE dont want to gain weight otherwise i would recommend gaining 40 pounds and let that be that. so what affect the breast (only) is actually balance. you need the right balance of hormones not more estrogen. most women already are estrogen dominant and have very high levels of estrogen from their modern lifestyles and diet. the body will over come this by down regulating the estrogen receptors so they dont act so strongly to estrogen's activity.now with down regulated receptors, adding more estrogen usually does nothing for NBE and will make some women sick. what actually will cause NBE is to balance the estrogen dominance by adding a progesterone. progesterone opposes the effects of estrogen and its the reason why breasts swell during the second half of a menstral cycle. progesterone reactivate the estrogen receptors.this is why women who take BCP with a progestin base get larger breasts. breast growth happens more to women with already large breasts (usually they have higher estrogen levels already).
my thoughts are that NBE is best caused with galactagogues with will work with the estrogen that is already in the body and direct estrogen's activity mainly on the breast. prolactin helps estrogen to store fat in the breasts rather then all over the place. also controlling androgen levels will help as well. testosterone metabolizes into estrogen so women with low testosterone have been known to grow while using DHEA. infact one of the well documented side effect of taking DHEA is breast enlargement. Other women may need to lower their testogeserone levels saw palmetto has some limited action but there are drugs like sprironolactone that controls testosterone levels and have been know to cause breast enlargement as well. Progesterone is also a big one. the only prob is getting the right dosage to cause NBE. progesterone cream has been known to cause Breast enlargement (only temp)but its not common. most women need high dosages to grow and OTC creams are usually not strong enough. growth hormone also plays a very big roll as well. with out GH estrogen, progesterone or testosterone wont do a thing to cause nbe.it doesnt even matter if you have the perfect balance. teens have a big chance of getting growth because of their rising GH levels but after puberty GH levels drop and chances of growthing growing drop. that may be why some women who take herbs may dont experience growth. it has been found that in women supplimented estrogen, if their IGF levels went up they grew but in women with no changes in their IGF level taking estrogen they didnt grow at all.
sorry about the long post. i know for a fact ive typed this stuff up before but hopefully it saves a newbee from making the mistake of stuffing their faces with carrots, colliflouwer,and soy thinking that more estrogen means more breasts.
Dont get me wrong.
EAT YOUR VEGGIES for strong healthy bodies but dont it expecting bigger breasts.hopefully what i typed here makes some sense. Phyoestrogens are more for balancing and if they do cause nbe it would be becuase they helped women get the right balance. that is actually a long shot and most woemen who take phytoestogens like red clover or soy for nbe and had success were also taking fenugreek and fennel so its hard to say what had the most effect. my money would be on fenugreek and fennel cause among most successful NBE cases at least 1 of the 2 were present and strong phyoestrogens are not as common."
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So yes, the galactogogues are seemingly a key ingredient for NBE. Too bad Fenugreek and I are such sworn enemies. (it made me feel 'faded')
Fennel did not seem to do anything for me but quite honestly I did not try it very long before adding the fenugreek so it got guilt by association.
waxingmoon
July 17 2007 at 9:35 AM Moon (Login -Moon-)
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Hello girls, I got this idea recently. How come we aren't putting more emphasis on significence of herbs which increase prolactin production - galactogogues, in NBE? I notice that WU is the only commercial pill which contains significent ammounts of galactogogues, particulary goat's rue (the strongest one, if I'm not mistaking), blue vervain and alfalfa. Some of the common herbs we use are also known to have been used for increasing breast milk - FG, fennel, hops, milk thistle, blessed thistle etc. But we can observe that WU contains more galactogogues that a usual routine. So I was thinking that they might be very good for NBE. In theory it makes sense - prolactin is said to redirect fat deposits from other areas into the breasts.
To bad I can't buy goat's rue anywhere and ordering it from US would be way too expensive. Anyway, any opinions?
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 10:15 AM
Hrmmm...interesting.
Goat's rue increases mammary tissue so that adoptive mothers, or those with difficulty breast feeding have a better shot. I've also read that increases in breast tissue for non-lactating women has been found.
It would make sense...for those of us who tried grow yours...we were doing what(I believe) goat's rue aims to achieve.
Here's the thought though...it has also been known that although some mothers have a 'deflated' look about them after breast feeding, some of the milk some mothers produce ends up turning into fat deposits because the milk was never expelled from the breast, resulting in fuller looking breasts. Could this be permanent?
I think you're on to something moon! Nice work! ;p
*much luck and love for all!*
Lost Sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 11:06 AM
Thanks a lot Moon, now you have me wondering if I should buy some goat's rue for the hell of it to expiriment! lol
sophie
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 11:33 AM
yeah....good thinking Moon! Do you have any ideas about what Rinoa said? Do you know of any good brands in the U.S. that sell goat's rue? I know you live in Europe, but from looking around, have you found any brands that seem high quality? Do you have any ideas about what an effective dosage would be for NBE? Hmm....I just searched the UK ebay site and they don't sell supplements, but they do sell goat's rue for spells and witchcraft if that is your bag!
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 11:54 AM
I too have read that Goat's rue was observed to increase breast tissue in non-lactating women. I think it would be a good trial, together with other herbs, for certain women at least. Some have too much prolactin (not sure, but I think this might be with estrogen dominance), but some of us may have to little of it. Whenever I feel pains coming, I start massaging my lobes immediately to increase prolactin, and I get more pains. A galactogogue herb would further support this prolactin production. I think it's best to do more that one thing for NBE, for example, GY by itself didn't do much for me, but when I combined it with a good BCP, herbs and suction (the best thing for increasing blood supply to the breasts imo) I got my first inch of growth.
Some women reatain a lot of size after breastfeeding, and some don't. Lactation and similary increasing prolactin would probably work for some women but not for all, like any NBE method. I think it's a good trial tho. I'll try to get myself some goat's rue, if I manage to set up my ebay account without having a credit card. Oh, and here's an US manufacturer of goat's rue:
http://www.motherlove.com/
I remeber one woman from this forum ordring from them and reporting that they said they also noticed breast enlargement in women using their products (they're originally ment for breastfeeding).
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 2:23 PM
Here's an EBay store that sells the Mother's Love products. There are no vendors close to me, and the direct website was going to charge $7 for shipping and handling where as this Ebay store only charged $3.85. I'm getting the capsules. Weeeeee time to be a guinea pig! Hahahaha!
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 2:24 PM
Forgot to link the store!
http://stores.ebay.com/Elite-Breastfeeding-Supplies
Oh I just get excited thinking about making milk! LOL, kidding kidding. This will be weird if anything other than breast tissue forms!
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 2:42 PM
Amazon.com as carries Goat's Rue
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 3:01 PM
This has me thinking now, I have seven kids, I didn't breast-feed them but each time my milk came in I just let it dry up on it's own (it toke a few days) I ended up a bit larger each time. Before my 1st child (11 years ago) I was a small 32A (might have really been an AA) now I'm a 36B and very round. Not a huge increase but the only thing I have every taken (up until this month) is EPO for PMS. Now this increase could have as been just aging but I was a bit larger after each baby. Oh and weight wise I'm about 30-40lb heaver now than before my 1st child, I did put on a lot of weight a few years back but have lost most of it and my boobs didn't get big, I was a "full" 36B almost C cup for about six months when I was 170lb.
Ann5
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 17 2007, 9:03 PM
I really am intersted in hearing someones experience on goat's rue. Mainly because I haven't read anyone using it, other than for wonderup users. I wanted to try that one out but decided to go with BO because it was cheaper and I'm on a tight budget. Here's a website for the goat's rue, www.pennherbs.com. It's located in Pennsylvania. Halome if you are going to try it out please keep us updated.
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 3:21 AM
I will for sure!
Lost Sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 5:38 AM
what would be better? liquid goats rue...or capsules?
tessie
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 8:27 AM
does prolactine really cause any permanent growth or do you lose the growth later on as in the GY program? Seems to me as if prolactine effects doesn't last.
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 2:20 PM
"prolactin is said to redirect fat deposits from other areas into the breasts. "
mmm, where have you read this? I have read that prolactin increases LPL in breasts while decreases it in other areas of the body. But nothing to do with fat deposits migrating to other areas of the body. :S It is true that increased levels of prolactin are responsible for mammoplasia (breast enlargement). However, i'm not sure if the results are permanent. Like what happens to people taking some SSRIs that inhibit dopamine and have their prolactin levels raised and many times experience mammoplasia.
Just a thought
I'm willing to give the Goat's Rue a shot though, looks harmless and I'm totally fed up with fenugreek and the occasional (but awful) pimples it gives me. :|
Linz
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Violet
July 18 2007, 5:10 PM
Hi violet,
I noticed you wrote a while back that you said you experienced a decrease in hips measurement while experiencing an increase in bust. I also agree that hormones are unlikely to make fat migrate.
However - just a thought, during puberty I've heard the combination of hormones makes fat from your stomach reach your breasts (supposedly).
Anyway....
I thought it made sense with what you were taking... if I remember correctly, vitex, fenugreek & sometimes fennel. As vitex increase progesterone/estrogen ratio... and progesterone prevent weight gain from the stomach down area of your body (as well as prolactin). FG & fennel are galactogues (so I've read a few times)so any fat is directed to the breasts. Well, I think it's very good in theory anyway.
I really want to try your routine after my current one is finished. I've taken vitex for 3 months but it just gives me spots - maybe I'll give it another try with the FG and fennel though!
How are your results coming along anyway, if you don't mind me asking.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 5:31 PM
LPL - LipoProtein Lipase is an enzyme that resides on the walls of the capilares, picks up fats from the blood and tranfers them into the nearby fat cells. So ''increases LPL in the breasts and decreases it in other parts of the body'' = ''redirects fat from other parts of the body into the breast''. I've read that certain drugs can cause mammoplasia, also those that result in high levels of prolactin. But I don't think we can compare NBE with a pathological or drug induced condition. The herbs we use don't normally have extreme actions and usually have an overall balancing effect on our hormones.
I'm rather pissed that goat's rue is so hard to find to buy, I hope I can order it throguh ebay without a cradit card.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 5:50 PM
I think you people have wrong conception on this 'hormones making fat migrate'. It's absolutely a fact that they do. Human body isn't unchangable, it's a very dynamic state in which substances are degraded an rebuilt, storages empties and refilled all the time. So the fats from the stomach don't literally travel into the breasts, just more fats from the stomach are used and less deposited, while moer are deposited into the breast. It's about making a slight shift in this constantly moving balance in fat distribution, not literally redirecting fats. Female body changes its shape when hitting puberty and that is mostly fat distribution. And finally, hormones have been known to be the agents governing fat distribution for a long time. If not hormones, what would?
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 6:29 PM
"does prolactine really cause any permanent growth or do you lose the growth later on as in the GY program? Seems to me as if prolactine effects doesn't last."
No hormone's effects last. Hormones are released, act on a receptor for a certain time and are after that certain time degraged or eliminated from the circulation. The time of action varies from a few mili seconds to a few hours. My point is - that was an absolutely too oversimplistic way to discuss anything hormone related.
Lost Sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 18 2007, 7:27 PM
Goats rue is quite expensive - I think I will wait and see how it works for you ladies and then go from there
Linz
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 1:02 AM
Good point moon - about the dynamic state of the body etc...
By the way, where does everyone get the info on the LPL prolactin thing? I've only ever read it on this forum. Did you come across it in your medical studies?
xx
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 7:57 AM
I am sooo glad you started this topic Moon!
I too am going to get my hands on some Goat's rue...namely the mother love brand as I know them to be quite reputable.
As Moon is, I am playing around with a little suction while on a break from herbs; currently i'm just taking a little borage, some milk thistle and a multi vitamin.
Son i'm going to introduce some Hops...see how that goes while I wait for my GR to arrive.
This will definately be interesting though. Even if GR only increases size while you're taking it, it will be good for my work ball in september! I have a dress I just can't fill! ;p
It would be good for those taking GR or something relating to galactogogues or prolactin keep tabs on their progress...and we'll see how it all goes.
I just want to mention again that Moon is definately an inquisitive wealth of knowledge, and it is valuable to have her here. Thanks Moon!
*much luck and love for all!*
Davi-lee
(Login Davi-lee)
info. on goats rue
July 19 2007, 8:10 AM
Im new here,but wanted to say that you may want to consider something before using Goats rue.
I looked it up in my field guide as it is a native plant.
It is Tephrosia virginiana,Pea family,its another legume,most legumes have some level of estrogenic compounds.
Anyway,it says that it was given to farm animals,milk goats to increase their milk production except it was discovered that the plant also contains Rotenone,which is a compound that is a natural insecticide and it will also kill fish.It is used in organic gardening methods,Im sure some of you will recognize it.
So,I would check into it thoroughly,and ask about the toxicity of the products.
Look into Kudzu.It is mostly known for being a noxious weed but there is some new research that shows that it is good for several different problems.One is it is used to relieve migranes and another it is used to stop alcoholic addiction.
It is high in the phytoestrogenic Isoflavones:daidzein,daidzin,genistein,puerarin.
Flaxseed is the grain highest in Lignans,which are estrogen balancers.
Oh,something else about Fenugreek,it lowers blood sugar levels.I started taking it and I was dragging around all the time and wondering why.I read up on it in one of my herbal books and found out that.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 1:38 PM
@Linz - you are right, I learnt about fat metabolism, including LPL, at biochemistry which is a part of my studies.
@Davi-Lee - indeed, when you mentioned rotenone, my eyes almost poped out! It's a metabolic poison, an inhibitor of celular breathing. Aftr some research however I found that there are two plants called goat's rue - Galega officinalis and Tephrosia virginiana. The first one grows in Europe and Asia and the second one in North America. The first one is the one we're talking about for NBE and the second is the one associated with rotenone. The info on the web is not very conclusive thoguh. I have emailed Motherlove and asked for their insight and whether they can guarantee their products don't contain any rotenone.
@Rinoa - Aww, thanks. :I *blushes* I'm also looking into buying goat's rue, I think it's great some of us are trying this, maybe it really does the trick. Of course after we confirm that it's not poisonous. :p
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 2:10 PM
Hi Linz,
"I noticed you wrote a while back that you said you experienced a decrease in hips measurement while experiencing an increase in bust. I also agree that hormones are unlikely to make fat migrate."
Yup, that was true. Like I wrote, it wasn't a significant decrease about 1-2cm, while increased about the same amount in the bust. What might have happened, possibly had little to do with fat deposit migration, if such thing exists..
If your body starts directing fats (the ones you eat in excess, that are on your blood stream ) giving more emphasis to other places in the body, it doesn't mean the fat deposits you have in other areas have migrated. I don't believe fat deposits migrate, they may be reduced if you exercise for example - I walk a lot and tend to exercise my bottom half more, so I tend to lose more weight in my bottom half, if, for example, i decide to cut on carbs.
Fats are taken from the fatty tissue into the blood stream too, but that's when you hit the bottom line on your liver, and have to burn those fats in order to make energy.
I was taking nettle root tea too, occasionally (more like in the 1st half of my cycle) and ginkgo biloba (for other reasons but I believed it helped a lot too). I was doing well, but ran out of herbs, money, and went on the pill. I intend to re-start that routine when possible.
In my honest opinion what helped me the most was definitely the fenugreek+vitex+ginkgo biloba.
I hope this helps and clarifies the comment I made some time ago, that might have lead some to some confusion.
I think I've found said comment:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/me...stribution
This message has been edited by _violet_ on Jul 19, 2007 2:40 PM
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 2:26 PM
"So ''increases LPL in the breasts and decreases it in other parts of the body'' = ''redirects fat from other parts of the body into the breast''
Sorry Moon... but I don't agree with you. If it increases LPL in the breasts that's pretty much it. It means the fats you eat that have to be stored somewhere, are going to be stored in a larger amount in the breasts, but will also be stored in the other places only in smaller amounts. I don't think fat deposits (especially in the bottom half in females) migrate, you may reduce the amount of fat in specific places, but that's another story, it requires that the fats are needed to be transformed in energy.
But hey, whatever rocks your boat really ;] Believing is part of NBE too, just adding my two cents on the matter...
This message has been edited by _violet_ on Jul 19, 2007 2:46 PM
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 2:57 PM
Umm, did you read anything of what I wrote? And what don't you agree on, you basically said th same thing as I did. The point is that increase in LPL in a tissue results in increased fat deposit in that tissue. "Dis/agreeng" on this is kindof silly because this is boichemical theory, not philosophy.
violet
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 19 2007, 9:00 PM
Hi Moon,
Hrm, I've read your second comment, and yes, it makes more clear what you were trying to say. So basically my disagreement had to do more with semantics than anything else. When you said that ''redirects fat from other parts of the body into the breast'', I purely interpreted it in it's strict sense. I really don't see the biochemistry/medical theory in that sentence. In exact sciences, in all sciences in general, the way you put things is pretty vital. I should know heh ;]
This message has been edited by _violet_ on Jul 19, 2007 9:07 PM
Davi Lee
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THANKS!
July 19 2007, 9:54 PM
Thanks Moon! Im sorry if I alarmed anyone.I just saw that in my book and had to say something,.....I worry about people.
Im really glad to know about that other Goats Rue.
Is there some more info on it around in the archives?
Yes,there are problems sometimes tracking plants because several may share a common name in different countries.
Nell Gwynne
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 20 2007, 6:55 PM
In answer to the original post, I think you probably have a very good point. I had noticed that almost all the Wonderup ingredients are known as galactogogues and wondered if this was significant. I think you are probably right to draw attention to it.
Louise
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 20 2007, 7:38 PM
This is quite interesting regarding too much prolactin:
http://www.sharedjourney.com/define/prolactin.html
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 20 2007, 8:09 PM
Louise, Thank you for the link, this was great. I had no idea that my shingles could be related to this.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 21 2007, 12:47 PM
Motherlove answered me that Galenga Officinallis doesn't contain rotenone for sure, and their product neither certianly.
I tried to buy Goat's rue on eBay but no one accepts bank transfters and I can't pay any other way.
Sucky. Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 1:13 PM
Moon! Join Paypal! You can connect your bank details to it!
And thanks for contacting Motherlove!
;p
*much luck and love for all!*
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 2:16 PM
I have paypal but I can't use it, not even my bank account.
That is only for US, Canada, Australia and a few European counries, mine not included. But I did find a few Europe based on-line stores that sell goat's rue an I will email them, hopefully at least one takes my bank transfer.
black sheep
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 2:20 PM
Increasing the prolactine seems like a great way to temporarily enlarge breasts, like for that upcoming ball, but one would have to keep taking the prolactine promoting herbs forever to keep the gains, right? Just as the Grow Yours program requires massaging forever to keep the prolactine levels high enough to keep the new size. Isn't it only estrogen that can make fat deposit in the breasts though? That seems a much better option than a temporary swelling from massage or prolactine promoting herbs. Only weightloss and dieting can reduce the size of the breasts if you got them the estrogenic way.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 5:35 PM
^Again, an oversimplistic view on breast growth. No, estrogen doesn't cause fat deposits in the breast, prolactin does that. I don't think promoting prolactin would cause temporary breast enlargement, I also don't think taking prolactin balancing herbs has the same effects as GY. It's about raising prolactin levels so that acting in concert with other hormones we achieve permanent growth. You can't achieve growth by mediating only one factor, you must make sure all the factors that affect breast growth are optimal.
Louise
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 6:02 PM
Do all of these things just deposit fat? Don't any of them actually grow breast tissue?
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 22 2007, 7:30 PM
Estrogen stimulates proliferation of duct nd glandular cells and progesteron as well if i'm not mistaking. Growth hormone as well sth similar surely.
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
Just a comment
July 23 2007, 7:53 AM
A breast health site I saw awhile back said that Estrogens stimulate cell mitosis and growth of the ductal system and breast fat accretion.
Progesterone stimulates growth development and differentiation of the glandular tissues,the lobules and alveoli and does have some effects on fat accretion.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 23 2007, 1:15 PM
^Yeah, I think that's more accurate.
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 23 2007, 4:03 PM
I'm also going to give Goats rue a try, I just read it's good for excess androgens (witch I have).
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 24 2007, 12:31 AM
Just got my first bottle of capsules...Here goes!!!
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 24 2007, 7:13 AM
That's great girls! Do keep us posted. I have to wait a bit longer before I can get mine.
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
Opinion on this for an intersexed person
July 24 2007, 8:50 AM
Moon,I know that being an intersexed person means I have some screwed up hormones,but do you think that this would work for me?
The G.R I mean.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 24 2007, 11:55 AM
Hmm well it's impossible to say for sure since we mostly use practice to learn from, but I guess it would or could. However, NBE has to cover all the factors that affect breast growth, no jut one, eg. take into consideration all hormones. I think first you would need a good way to block androgens, imo it's best to have several methods to block androgens at once (like nattle, SP, spear mint tea, cut out shuggars from the diet, an androgen blocker contaning BCP...). It would also be good if you were on a BCP to get some more estrogen and progesterone. And then small ammouns of estrogenic herbs. Dunno why, but it shows in practice that herbal NBE often works better with BCP. And then GR would serve to raise prolactin. I think it probably would contribute. If I'm not mistaking, prolactin has the same effects of mamary gland in both sexes (then I assume also in intersexual people). You could google on that to get more details.
momXseven
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 25 2007, 8:21 PM
I got my Goats Rue today, I'll update on how I think it's going as I go along.
Halome
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 27 2007, 12:07 AM
It could just be a combo of my other stuff, but I just ended my period and have been taking the Goats Rue a couple days now (trying to follow the usage suggestion on the bottle) and my boobs feel fuller and heavier, and I think the measuring tape shows close to a half inch difference... I hope it lasts!
Luteal swelling is typically half way before the period starts, right? Like 10+ days after it ends or something? I hope this is a good sign T_T
Rinoa_Lewis
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 27 2007, 9:32 AM
Halome...HOPE IT'S TRUE!
Keep us posted love!
*much luck and love for all!*
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
July 27 2007, 9:59 AM
Halome awsome, and you're right, after period the breast size is supposed to be the smallest and growth minimal. Sound promising! I hope I can find get GR soon...
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 5:12 PM
Bumping this to raise GR awareness.
bonnette
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 5:44 PM
hey
about the SugarQ explaining about galactagogues i rememeber it was in the thread i started maybe - what to do next? By Bonnette - cos i really got confused then about the difference of phytoestrogens and galactogogues. anyway i dont know how to find it cos it was quite some time ago, in april or smth but the explanations was pretty good.
Moon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 6:01 PM
That's inetresting, indeed I remember GR and galactogogue talk before too but no one tried it so far. Personally I think GR might be a good trial for those who seem unresponsive to common herb routines, which is why I'm planning to start it.
You could find the old topi by searching the site if you remeber the topic title.
waxingmoon
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Re: Galactogogues - a theory on why WU is a (relatively) sucessful product
August 27 2007, 7:44 PM
Moon and Bonnette, I found the post I made in reference to SugarQ's post (a reference of a reference ...)
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SugarQ posted on a thread saying that estrogens were not the way to increase breast size. It was the galactagouges that were the key (fenegreek and fennel).
Here is an a bit of the post she made. The entire post is on this thread : http://www.network54.com/Forum/371678/th...ast+growth
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"...now breast size has more to do with body fat disribution and body weight rather then estrogen levels. estrogen does affect body size and the smaller you are the smaller your breasts and the more fat you have the more estrogen is in the your body the larger your breast(am i confusing you.lol hopefull you will get it once i finish). increasing just estrogen levels will cause women to store fat all over the body but more likely in the bottom half rather in the top. most women who do NBE dont want to gain weight otherwise i would recommend gaining 40 pounds and let that be that. so what affect the breast (only) is actually balance. you need the right balance of hormones not more estrogen. most women already are estrogen dominant and have very high levels of estrogen from their modern lifestyles and diet. the body will over come this by down regulating the estrogen receptors so they dont act so strongly to estrogen's activity.now with down regulated receptors, adding more estrogen usually does nothing for NBE and will make some women sick. what actually will cause NBE is to balance the estrogen dominance by adding a progesterone. progesterone opposes the effects of estrogen and its the reason why breasts swell during the second half of a menstral cycle. progesterone reactivate the estrogen receptors.this is why women who take BCP with a progestin base get larger breasts. breast growth happens more to women with already large breasts (usually they have higher estrogen levels already).
my thoughts are that NBE is best caused with galactagogues with will work with the estrogen that is already in the body and direct estrogen's activity mainly on the breast. prolactin helps estrogen to store fat in the breasts rather then all over the place. also controlling androgen levels will help as well. testosterone metabolizes into estrogen so women with low testosterone have been known to grow while using DHEA. infact one of the well documented side effect of taking DHEA is breast enlargement. Other women may need to lower their testogeserone levels saw palmetto has some limited action but there are drugs like sprironolactone that controls testosterone levels and have been know to cause breast enlargement as well. Progesterone is also a big one. the only prob is getting the right dosage to cause NBE. progesterone cream has been known to cause Breast enlargement (only temp)but its not common. most women need high dosages to grow and OTC creams are usually not strong enough. growth hormone also plays a very big roll as well. with out GH estrogen, progesterone or testosterone wont do a thing to cause nbe.it doesnt even matter if you have the perfect balance. teens have a big chance of getting growth because of their rising GH levels but after puberty GH levels drop and chances of growthing growing drop. that may be why some women who take herbs may dont experience growth. it has been found that in women supplimented estrogen, if their IGF levels went up they grew but in women with no changes in their IGF level taking estrogen they didnt grow at all.
sorry about the long post. i know for a fact ive typed this stuff up before but hopefully it saves a newbee from making the mistake of stuffing their faces with carrots, colliflouwer,and soy thinking that more estrogen means more breasts.
Dont get me wrong.
EAT YOUR VEGGIES for strong healthy bodies but dont it expecting bigger breasts.hopefully what i typed here makes some sense. Phyoestrogens are more for balancing and if they do cause nbe it would be becuase they helped women get the right balance. that is actually a long shot and most woemen who take phytoestogens like red clover or soy for nbe and had success were also taking fenugreek and fennel so its hard to say what had the most effect. my money would be on fenugreek and fennel cause among most successful NBE cases at least 1 of the 2 were present and strong phyoestrogens are not as common."
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So yes, the galactogogues are seemingly a key ingredient for NBE. Too bad Fenugreek and I are such sworn enemies. (it made me feel 'faded')
Fennel did not seem to do anything for me but quite honestly I did not try it very long before adding the fenugreek so it got guilt by association.
waxingmoon