08-09-2012, 05:04 PM
Extracts vs. Dried Herbs
February 13 2008 at 7:34 AM Durga (Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, I've always been wanting to know the difference between dried herbs compared to the extracts. I thought maybe we should compile general agreements on these two and post it on the "Information on Herbs" page. Here is what I have gleaned so far (which is not much, and I feel like I've sorted through quite a bit!).
ON DRIED HERBS:
-All or most of the therapeutic parts of the plant are used.
-Generally, one has to use more of the dried herb since it is not as concentrated as an extract
-Some herbal capsules are given an "enteric" coating with a cellulose fiber to delay the release of the herb into the stomach or intestine. If you are using this form, take the capsules one hour before, rather than during or after, meals.
ON HERBAL LIQUID EXTRACTS (or tinctures):
-Extracts are concentrated preparations of herbs diluted in alcohol (or glycerin) and water
-Extracts are absorbed quicker into the bloodstream, for a more immediate effect
-Extracts generally only use specific parts of a plant (root, or leaf, etc.)
QUALITY:
-Herbal products that are labelled as "standardized" are chemically tested and confirmed to maintain a minimum dosage of all the known active constituents of an herb. This also means that the herb's identification and species are confirmed and they are also tested for heavy metal contents.
-Professional herbalists also supply high-quality traditional herbal products
DOSES/EQUIVALENTS
This one I definately need help on. How do you determine the equivalent of herbal capsule to liquid extract? Say you want to switch from taking a capsule or powder to a liquid extract...
-Tap posted a very helpful link in her "A long awaited answer" thread (December 2006) http://www.rrreading.com/files/Milligram...iliter.pdf
-An important note from this link: "(the stength of a tinture) is NOT perfect as herb materials differ in solubility...exact amounts are not required for therapeutic efficacy. Herbal medicines are never exactly the same twice." So, with that in mind, let's try and get an idea anyway:
-The strength of a tincture is what you see on the label as a ratio of 1:1, 1:2, 1:3,etc. This refers to the WEIGHT of the herb to the VOLUME of menstruum (the medium, usually water and alcohol). Example- a 1:5 tinture means 1 part herb to 5 parts liquid.
1:1=1,000 mg (1 gr) of herb per ml
1:2=500 mg (.5 gr) of herb per ml
1:3=333 mg (.33gr) of herb per ml
and so on...
So, here's what I understand:
-An example: you've got a bottle of extract that is a 1:4 menstruum ratio, how much would it equal (roughly, of course) in dried herb? A 1:4 ratio is 250 mg of herb per ml. There are approximately (by my trial) 40 drops in 1 ml. I'm taking this three times a day, so that would mean I am taking 3ml x 250mg, so that's approximately 750mg per day.
I'm sure there are others out there who I'm hoping will correct, answer or add to any of the above. I'll edit this post to update any "general consensus" feedback.
Respond to this message
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sandy
(Login sandy111)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 13 2008, 12:49 PM
Hmm,From what i know the ratio of 1:2 is for example if you have 250 mg of standardized extract it is equal to 500 mg whole herb(2 times 250)..if it is 1:3 it means that 250 mg is equal to 750 mg whole herb.(3 times 250)..
Durga
(Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 14 2008, 7:06 PM
Sandy,
I haven't heard that one before (the 1:2 ratio being 1 part extract to two parts herb). Anyone else have input on this one?
Durga
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 14 2008, 7:28 PM
Sandy's right. The point of having extracts is to allow you to take a higher equivalent dose more conveniently i.e. by swallowing a smaller volume of the stronger extract. A 4:1 extract means you take 1/4 quantity to be the same as a standard dose e.g. 1 Wonderup tablet contains 75mg fenugreek, 4:1 strength, you take 6 tablets daily which gives equivalent daily total of 6x4x75=1800mg which is the same amount Eve took. I have some things that are just powdered dry herb and some things even 15:1 extracts to it's important to know what you're buying otherwise you could spend a lot of money on something very weak or take a huge dose and stall.
Also, dry powdered herbs will have a different weight to seeds or non-dried leaves. It's easiest to compare doses with powders as that's what most of us have used.
Durga
(Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 15 2008, 12:26 AM
Louise and Sandy,
Thank you guys for your responses. Maybe I'm not asking the right question or we're thinking of two different things?
From every source I've checked regarding the strength of a tincture, it is agreed that the ratio seen on labels of LIQUID HERBAL EXTRACT is the weight of the herb (dried, fresh, whole, powdered, etc.) to the volume of menstruum (the liquid medium used in the extraction process). This is not a reference to the liquid extracts equivalent to an herbal capsule or dried powdered herb (which was my question).
Louise (and maybe Sandy?) may be referring to Wonderup tablets vs. Wonderup liquid. I do not use this product, so I'm unfamiliar, but there also exist DRIED extracts, which may be what Wonderup tablets actually are. My ponderance was referring to LIQUID extract.
However, it seems my question,"How do you determine the equivalent of herbal capsule to liquid extract?" may be an impossible one to answer!
From Herb Pharm's website and their consultant Ed Smith, an herbalist of 25 years, here are their answers:
HOW DO OUR EXTRACTS COMPARE TO DRIED HERB CAPSULES?
Answer: Because liquid extracts are much more easily absorbed than powdered herbs, it's impossible to compare powdered herbs with herbal extracts. Liquid extracts are essentially 'pre-digested' herbs. The natural constituents from fresh or recently dried herbs are extracted out of the cellulose and other structural material of the plant and are easily assimilated. The naturally occuring compounds in powdered herbs must be digested or extracted out of the cellulose matrix of the herb by our digestive system. This is difficult to do, especially for anyone with health problems. Additionally, the liquid extract medium is very stable and the herbal extract remains viable for a long period of time. Powdered herbs degrade quickly from the greatly increased exposure to oxygen.
HOW MANY MILLIGRAMS OF HERB ARE IN A DROP OF EXTRACT?
Answer: The mg represented by 1 milliliter of extract (about 30-40 drops) from dried herb are given by the herb to menstruum ratio. This number varies for extracts made from fresh herbs due to the increased yield of these extracts. Liquid extracts are more assimilable than powdered herbs so the weights are not comparable. If you are trying to follow a recommendation, the form of the recommendation (in other words "powdered herb," "liquid extract," etc.) needs to be considered. Quality and quantity are separate issues and even liquid extracts cannot be accurately compared on a mg to mg basis. Many factors determine the quality of an herbal extract; these include the make-up of the menstruum, extraction technique and raw herb quality.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 15 2008, 7:34 AM
Sorry, I was just talking about powders. The liquid extract thing is like you study in chemistry. You have the percentage of the liquid that is actually the active ingredient on the bottle and to work out how much you need I think it also involves molecular weight but it's a long time since I studied this stuff! It's difficult to convert from ml to mg because ml is a volume measurement not just weight. I worked it out using different cooking conversion tables to give me a rough idea of how many mg was in a 5ml medicine spoon so I can use that to measure my herbs. I think it was about 4700mg (somewhere between 4500-4800) but I've been having computer probs and I lost the information. It will also be different for different substances (which is where molecular weight comes in) as some substances are more dense than others so they weigh more for a lower volume. I would've thought the natureday people might be able to help as they have a liquid and a tablet. Wonderup is dried powdered extracts squashed into green powdery tablets, they don't have a liquid as far as I know. Also aren't liquid absorbed differently by the body or is that my imagination? I guess it's been a while since I studied biology too!
Maybe Moon can help?
Durga
(Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 15 2008, 9:11 AM
Louise, I know. I had a headache from trying to get my mind around it...just out of my reach!
So, guys, the responses from Herb Pharm were helpful to me in that they clarified a few points:
-"Because liquid extracts are much more easily absorbed than powdered herbs, it's impossible to compare powdered herbs with herbal extracts." This one supports what you were saying, Louise, about them being absorbed differently into the body.
-"Additionally, the liquid extract medium is very stable and the herbal extract remains viable for a long period of time. Powdered herbs degrade quickly from the greatly increased exposure to oxygen." The driving reason, for this post of mine is that we all want to get the safest, most effective option so we can try to minimize wasting money, right? The comparisons between the potency and immediacy of a liquid herbal extract and dried powdered herbs certainly has me sold on the extracts. Of course, Herb Pharm is a retailer of this particular kind of product, so of course that's how they want to present it, but their points seem quite valid!
-Considering the varying factors involved in making any herbal preparation, and that "exact amounts are not required for therapeutic efficacy" (of course, we're all not quite going for the therapeutic aspects
), Does it make sense that, as a guideline:
If you're using liquid herbal extract, it seems much more enigmatic to quantify one's intake. Due to this enigmatic nature, I think we should be more cautious with liquid extracts ...we don't want to stall if we're taking too high a dose. I suppose, then, one would want to-as the usual approach- start off at a low dose and proceed from there. A "low dose" would be lowest dose suggested on the label. An example would be, if suggested "30-40 drops 2-3 times a day", then start off taking 30-40 drops 2 times a day for a month or two.
I think I'm getting ahead a little bit. I really would love more feedback.
February 13 2008 at 7:34 AM Durga (Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, I've always been wanting to know the difference between dried herbs compared to the extracts. I thought maybe we should compile general agreements on these two and post it on the "Information on Herbs" page. Here is what I have gleaned so far (which is not much, and I feel like I've sorted through quite a bit!).
ON DRIED HERBS:
-All or most of the therapeutic parts of the plant are used.
-Generally, one has to use more of the dried herb since it is not as concentrated as an extract
-Some herbal capsules are given an "enteric" coating with a cellulose fiber to delay the release of the herb into the stomach or intestine. If you are using this form, take the capsules one hour before, rather than during or after, meals.
ON HERBAL LIQUID EXTRACTS (or tinctures):
-Extracts are concentrated preparations of herbs diluted in alcohol (or glycerin) and water
-Extracts are absorbed quicker into the bloodstream, for a more immediate effect
-Extracts generally only use specific parts of a plant (root, or leaf, etc.)
QUALITY:
-Herbal products that are labelled as "standardized" are chemically tested and confirmed to maintain a minimum dosage of all the known active constituents of an herb. This also means that the herb's identification and species are confirmed and they are also tested for heavy metal contents.
-Professional herbalists also supply high-quality traditional herbal products
DOSES/EQUIVALENTS
This one I definately need help on. How do you determine the equivalent of herbal capsule to liquid extract? Say you want to switch from taking a capsule or powder to a liquid extract...
-Tap posted a very helpful link in her "A long awaited answer" thread (December 2006) http://www.rrreading.com/files/Milligram...iliter.pdf
-An important note from this link: "(the stength of a tinture) is NOT perfect as herb materials differ in solubility...exact amounts are not required for therapeutic efficacy. Herbal medicines are never exactly the same twice." So, with that in mind, let's try and get an idea anyway:
-The strength of a tincture is what you see on the label as a ratio of 1:1, 1:2, 1:3,etc. This refers to the WEIGHT of the herb to the VOLUME of menstruum (the medium, usually water and alcohol). Example- a 1:5 tinture means 1 part herb to 5 parts liquid.
1:1=1,000 mg (1 gr) of herb per ml
1:2=500 mg (.5 gr) of herb per ml
1:3=333 mg (.33gr) of herb per ml
and so on...
So, here's what I understand:
-An example: you've got a bottle of extract that is a 1:4 menstruum ratio, how much would it equal (roughly, of course) in dried herb? A 1:4 ratio is 250 mg of herb per ml. There are approximately (by my trial) 40 drops in 1 ml. I'm taking this three times a day, so that would mean I am taking 3ml x 250mg, so that's approximately 750mg per day.
I'm sure there are others out there who I'm hoping will correct, answer or add to any of the above. I'll edit this post to update any "general consensus" feedback.
Respond to this message
Author Reply
sandy
(Login sandy111)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 13 2008, 12:49 PM
Hmm,From what i know the ratio of 1:2 is for example if you have 250 mg of standardized extract it is equal to 500 mg whole herb(2 times 250)..if it is 1:3 it means that 250 mg is equal to 750 mg whole herb.(3 times 250)..
Durga
(Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 14 2008, 7:06 PM
Sandy,
I haven't heard that one before (the 1:2 ratio being 1 part extract to two parts herb). Anyone else have input on this one?
Durga
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 14 2008, 7:28 PM
Sandy's right. The point of having extracts is to allow you to take a higher equivalent dose more conveniently i.e. by swallowing a smaller volume of the stronger extract. A 4:1 extract means you take 1/4 quantity to be the same as a standard dose e.g. 1 Wonderup tablet contains 75mg fenugreek, 4:1 strength, you take 6 tablets daily which gives equivalent daily total of 6x4x75=1800mg which is the same amount Eve took. I have some things that are just powdered dry herb and some things even 15:1 extracts to it's important to know what you're buying otherwise you could spend a lot of money on something very weak or take a huge dose and stall.
Also, dry powdered herbs will have a different weight to seeds or non-dried leaves. It's easiest to compare doses with powders as that's what most of us have used.
Durga
(Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 15 2008, 12:26 AM
Louise and Sandy,
Thank you guys for your responses. Maybe I'm not asking the right question or we're thinking of two different things?
From every source I've checked regarding the strength of a tincture, it is agreed that the ratio seen on labels of LIQUID HERBAL EXTRACT is the weight of the herb (dried, fresh, whole, powdered, etc.) to the volume of menstruum (the liquid medium used in the extraction process). This is not a reference to the liquid extracts equivalent to an herbal capsule or dried powdered herb (which was my question).
Louise (and maybe Sandy?) may be referring to Wonderup tablets vs. Wonderup liquid. I do not use this product, so I'm unfamiliar, but there also exist DRIED extracts, which may be what Wonderup tablets actually are. My ponderance was referring to LIQUID extract.
However, it seems my question,"How do you determine the equivalent of herbal capsule to liquid extract?" may be an impossible one to answer!
From Herb Pharm's website and their consultant Ed Smith, an herbalist of 25 years, here are their answers:
HOW DO OUR EXTRACTS COMPARE TO DRIED HERB CAPSULES?
Answer: Because liquid extracts are much more easily absorbed than powdered herbs, it's impossible to compare powdered herbs with herbal extracts. Liquid extracts are essentially 'pre-digested' herbs. The natural constituents from fresh or recently dried herbs are extracted out of the cellulose and other structural material of the plant and are easily assimilated. The naturally occuring compounds in powdered herbs must be digested or extracted out of the cellulose matrix of the herb by our digestive system. This is difficult to do, especially for anyone with health problems. Additionally, the liquid extract medium is very stable and the herbal extract remains viable for a long period of time. Powdered herbs degrade quickly from the greatly increased exposure to oxygen.
HOW MANY MILLIGRAMS OF HERB ARE IN A DROP OF EXTRACT?
Answer: The mg represented by 1 milliliter of extract (about 30-40 drops) from dried herb are given by the herb to menstruum ratio. This number varies for extracts made from fresh herbs due to the increased yield of these extracts. Liquid extracts are more assimilable than powdered herbs so the weights are not comparable. If you are trying to follow a recommendation, the form of the recommendation (in other words "powdered herb," "liquid extract," etc.) needs to be considered. Quality and quantity are separate issues and even liquid extracts cannot be accurately compared on a mg to mg basis. Many factors determine the quality of an herbal extract; these include the make-up of the menstruum, extraction technique and raw herb quality.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 15 2008, 7:34 AM
Sorry, I was just talking about powders. The liquid extract thing is like you study in chemistry. You have the percentage of the liquid that is actually the active ingredient on the bottle and to work out how much you need I think it also involves molecular weight but it's a long time since I studied this stuff! It's difficult to convert from ml to mg because ml is a volume measurement not just weight. I worked it out using different cooking conversion tables to give me a rough idea of how many mg was in a 5ml medicine spoon so I can use that to measure my herbs. I think it was about 4700mg (somewhere between 4500-4800) but I've been having computer probs and I lost the information. It will also be different for different substances (which is where molecular weight comes in) as some substances are more dense than others so they weigh more for a lower volume. I would've thought the natureday people might be able to help as they have a liquid and a tablet. Wonderup is dried powdered extracts squashed into green powdery tablets, they don't have a liquid as far as I know. Also aren't liquid absorbed differently by the body or is that my imagination? I guess it's been a while since I studied biology too!
Maybe Moon can help?
Durga
(Login durga)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: Extracts vs. Dried Herbs February 15 2008, 9:11 AM
Louise, I know. I had a headache from trying to get my mind around it...just out of my reach!
So, guys, the responses from Herb Pharm were helpful to me in that they clarified a few points:
-"Because liquid extracts are much more easily absorbed than powdered herbs, it's impossible to compare powdered herbs with herbal extracts." This one supports what you were saying, Louise, about them being absorbed differently into the body.
-"Additionally, the liquid extract medium is very stable and the herbal extract remains viable for a long period of time. Powdered herbs degrade quickly from the greatly increased exposure to oxygen." The driving reason, for this post of mine is that we all want to get the safest, most effective option so we can try to minimize wasting money, right? The comparisons between the potency and immediacy of a liquid herbal extract and dried powdered herbs certainly has me sold on the extracts. Of course, Herb Pharm is a retailer of this particular kind of product, so of course that's how they want to present it, but their points seem quite valid!
-Considering the varying factors involved in making any herbal preparation, and that "exact amounts are not required for therapeutic efficacy" (of course, we're all not quite going for the therapeutic aspects
), Does it make sense that, as a guideline:If you're using liquid herbal extract, it seems much more enigmatic to quantify one's intake. Due to this enigmatic nature, I think we should be more cautious with liquid extracts ...we don't want to stall if we're taking too high a dose. I suppose, then, one would want to-as the usual approach- start off at a low dose and proceed from there. A "low dose" would be lowest dose suggested on the label. An example would be, if suggested "30-40 drops 2-3 times a day", then start off taking 30-40 drops 2 times a day for a month or two.
I think I'm getting ahead a little bit. I really would love more feedback.