Hello,
I've started NBE about 2 weeks ago. I NB one hour every day, massage everyday and I drink fenugreek, SP, and red clover. about doses..
3 times fenugreek per 1440 mg
3 times red clover 800mg
3times SP 1080mg
And these days I feel horrible.
Hot flashes, swinging head, sweating a lot ( and in that fenugreek smell
( ), I even can't stand on my feet.
Could it be from herbs? I also don't see any different in breast growing
I think you've put yourself over the edge on estrogen into estrogen dominance territory...
Try using a progesterone cream.
But yeah, definitely herb related.
Uhm... and... the only thing you can do for the fenugreek smell afaik, is stop taking fenugreek, do a complete cleanse and detox, and then switch to a different phytoestrogen.
Unfortunately, as long as you use fenugreek, your sweat will smell from it.
It seems to be the effect of herbs you are using. Consult any professional to get the right advice.
Probably the fenugreek. Do you have hypoglycemia? FG can further lower your blood sugar causing dizziness, weakness, etc. Especially in people who already have hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). See if sugar helps your problems. In the long term try B vitamins for hypoglycemia, on top of seeing a doctor if necessary. To get B vitamins from diet try whole grain/bean/seed/nut foods, prebiotics and whole eggs.
The other 2 herbs are unlikely to cause any problems. But there's not any point to taking more than 700 mg SP extract and 400 mg RC per day because they become saturated. Even 320 mg SP extract might be plenty. Less than 400 mg RC might even be better so it doesn't block your own estrogen. Make sure the SP is an extract or even 3240 mg would be low.
I doubt it's excess estrogen because once saturated RC would block other estrogen. It's in products to combat too much estrogen for this reason.
OH. Well, some of what she described COULD be attributable to hypoglycemia, yes. But the hot flashes and sweating do not attribute. And I rather prefer the Dr. House diagnostics protocol: Try to find just ONE thing that ALL symptoms fit... treat for that first. That would be estrogen dominance from where I'm sitting.
And I'd actually argue that it IS not only possible, but already proven, by Doll, that it IS possible to go into estrogen dominance on that combination.
I'm not saying she for sure has estrogen dominance, but it's easy and cheap to treat, and it won't hurt anything if it's wrong. It's a safe thing to try...
And what's your source on saturation point? Cuz there really isn't any such thing.
I have to agree that I don't see how SP and RC could become "saturated". I think you must be using the term differently than it's normally used. Can you please explain what you mean? Also, RC contains strong phytoestrogens, so I don't see why it couldn't cause estrogen dominance. Taken in large doses over a long period of time, it would antagonize estrogen, but that's true of any phytoestrogen.
It doesn't entirely make sense to me either... my only guess is that taken together, RC and FG are able to get very close to the same efficacy as something stronger like PM is by itself. I'm not sure if it measures the same or not, but PM is more than close enough to estradiol to cause estrogen dominance.
I suppose she could also be having the opposite effect and her dosing is high enough to shut off her bodies natural estrogen production but not high enough to replace that, causing estrogen deficiency instead of dominance... The symptoms both directions are similar enough that without being her I can't really say. The symptoms become even harder to differentiate as a bio male cuz I don't have the reproductive symptoms you girls do. She hasn't stated ANYTHING regarding that, so I don't know if they simply don't exist or she just doesn't feel comfortable mentioning them...
Moony... if you're still around and see this... could you do us and yourself a favor and check this out:
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_...etest.html
I may be wrong on which type, but I definitely suspect a hormone imbalance at this time.
RC has a very large amount of phytoestrogens, probably enough to fill all the receptors. But they're weak in effect. So once they fill them all that's it. And it competes with other sources of estrogen. That's why RC is often taken to combat excess estrogen, even with as little as 400 mg. Other herbs like PM and hops are the reverse: small concentration with much higher potency. They can cause a higher estrogen effect without blocking too many receptors.
SP likewise blocks the conversion of testosterone into DHT. Once it's fully blocked it's blocked. It won't reduce other testosterone besides DHT if you take more. Besides that it has an extraordinary safety record.
It is possible that FG also increased the effect of whatever estrogen she's getting, whether RC or her own or both. Though everything except hot flashes fits low blood sugar: dizziness, having trouble standing and sweating. Sugar is the body's fuel, so not having enough circulating causes weakness. If "hot flashes" refers to heart palpitation and sweating then it also fits low blood sugar. Either way whether it's estrogen or blood sugar, FG is most likely the problem. And it's easy to check whether or not it's low blood sugar by seeing if sweets help.
That was well put, and I agree with everything you just said. On the other hand, I do think that it's possible to take RC at a dose that does not overwhelm the receptors and is therefore estrogenic. Whether or not that's true in her case, I have no idea.
(20-09-2012, 06:37 AM)surferjoe2007 Wrote: [ -> ]If "hot flashes" refers to heart palpitation and sweating then it also fits low blood sugar.
Wait. Heart palpitation fits hypoglycemia? You're right! I've never noticed that before!
...
OK, I change my mind. LOL. Hypoglycemia fits better. It's the more likely of the two, and all symptoms fit for it.
...
As for the other stuff you said... I'll take your word on RC, I've never really looked into it too much, I looked at the estrogens it had and decided they wouldn't get me my results and moved on.
SP does do as you said. I agree it's impossible to OD, but it'd be just a plain waste to take more than you need. But I disagree with where that necessarily occurs. It's going to be different between individuals, for examples, I and at least one other person on these boards NEED 1280mg of standardized extract. Doll needs a fairly high dose as well, though not perhaps THAT high.
But yeah, FG is more of an estrogenic adaptogen than an actual estrogen and COULD cause estrogen dominance like I originally thought... but that'd be less likely to occur than hypoglycemia, and hypoglycemia would be first.