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PM and testosterone/muscles

#11

The level of misinformation is rampant here. Androgenic hormones are not equivalent and interchangeable. DHT is a more potent androgen than testosterone, that the body creates from testosterone via the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. Higher levels DHT are thought to be partially responsible for pattern baldness in both men and women and hirsutism in women. It does the same thing in men (causes facial hair growth) but it's not considered a problem in men!

Testosterone is responsible for muscle mass, libido and helping maintain bone density in both men and women. DHT, a much stronger androgen is responsible for most of the other traits we consider masculine: body odor, body hair, masculine genital development and the like. DHT has pretty much NO effective anabolic effects on muscle; that comes from testosterone.

Some anti-androgens inhibit the 5-alpha reductase pathway, some reduce testosterone production and some interfere with androgenic effects at the receptor level. Those that interfere with the 5-alpha reductase pathway will reduce body hair growth, help with pattern baldness, and reduce excess acne (via a reduction in sebaceous gland size which is affected by DHT). Those that interfere with testosterone production will also cause a reduction in muscle mass, libido and potentially have an effect on bone density in addition to the effects previously noted.

Anti-androgens do NOT affect estrogen, estrogen production, or the ability of estrogen receptors to respond to estrogen. They just don't work that way.

PM is a complex phytoestrogen that also contains anti-androgenic compounds and it is not NECESSARY to take an anti-androgen along with it, for men or women. For some, PM may work better with an anti-androgen, but it is not necessary.

On one final note, I would be extremely cautious about reducing your protein intake to the point of catabolism. Protein catabolism is an aberrant state, and indicates either an underlying pathology or malnutrition/starvation. It is also extremely stressful on the kidneys which help maintain nitrogen balance in your body. See this link for info on muscle wasting and proteolysis and make up your own mind; http://www.asas.org/symposia/esupp2/jas2080.pdf

Hope this helps.
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#12

I do not agree about anabolic effects of DHT, I have used it in the past and it had an effect. Also there are a plethora of products like this

http://www.primordialperformance.com/sto...ss-v3.html

That gym rats take as a legal alternative to steroids. Which are basically DHT supps.

I would also say that a catabolic disease is vastly different to lowering protein intake. Think of all the people in poor countries who can't get any. I once met an old chinese guy who just ate rice noodle soup his whole life. Eating meat maybe once every few weeks. He was over 50 and was fine. There are millions of people who get very little protein in their diet for their entire life. So temporarily reducing would have little implications in the long term. (reduce not eliminate)

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#13

Sorry your link does not support your beliefs, and if you are relying on gym rats for your information, you will be severely misinformed more often than not. (As a point of reference so that you know the knowledge base I am approaching this from, my educational background includes a Doctorate in Physical Therapy which includes among other topics dedicated course work in anatomy, physiology, pathology, nutrition and pharmacology.)

But, since you find those folks reputable, try this link which completely contradicts your assertions: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm
DHT is much too quickly metabolized to a completely ineffective (as far as producing increased muscle mass) by product in muscle. It could have a weak effect were it not for this. See the article above.

Here are yet more muscle heads/gym rats discussing DHT and its LACK of an anabolic effect (certainly not an authoritative source in my opinion, but here it is anyway):

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/show...DHT-Muscle

Here's a study illustrating that differing DHT levels had NO effect on lean body mass (muscle), while testosterone levels DID affect muscle mass:

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/show...DHT-Muscle

Let's see some evidence backing up your assertions.

Lowering protein intake is WAY different than protein deprivation to the point proteolysis. Lowering protein intake to the point of protein catabolism is most definitely dangerous, and severely unhealthy for multiple body systems. You originally suggested using severe protein deprivation as a way to reduce muscle mass, which it most certainly will do, but at what cost?

The human body is amazing in it's ability to adapt to so many adverse situations, including chronic malnutrition. Just because it is possible, doesn't make it desirable. Just because ONE Chinese man, who was probably malnourished his entire life, can survive that way, does NOT make it a desirable thing to do, especially if one of your goals is to maintain optimum health. Do you think it is merely coincidence that people in developed countries with access to adequate/optimal nutrition and clean water also are healthier and literally larger and live longer than they did a hundred years ago? Even if millions of people don't get adequate protein their entire lives and survive, is that what you are striving for? Just survival? Do you think that's what they would choose if given the choice? Just survival? The absurdity of your assertion is astounding and truly 'gibberish.'
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#14

Ok I read up on the DHT and I can see now it works in different way to what I thought. Providing strength which is then used to develop more muscle by new overloading. Thanks for that info Smile

But you are so going over the top about the protein statement. I am merely talking about a reduction an not a complete elimination and again not for the long term. I know the removal of protein from your diet isn't good. But a short term reduction will have very little implications in the long run. This is also under the assumption that she has excess muscle. Jeez my muscles have been consumed on a diet with 200+ grams of protein a day and I have known guys to go catabolic on 3500+ calories a day. I never said severe protein deprivation.

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